Max_Killjoy Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 I just don't buy the idea that I am SUPPOSED to care about this, otherwise I am part of the problem. From my seat there is no problem.... Until there is a reason to care I don't see many folks lining up to pick up the pitchforks. What's where I started out, until the people with pitchforks and torches started looking at anyone who wasn't carrying one (or both) a little funny, and accusing the empty-handed of being one of the "monsters" they were after. It didn't take long for me to conclude that the people with pitchforks and torches were more corrosive and damaging to the game than the "monsters" they were after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeNaCe-NZ Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 The whole forum has probably seen and read those posts at this point, let alone little old me, and like I said before more than once, NO ONE has given even a SINGLE example of any harm being done to other players, outside of silly hypothetical nonsense. AGAIN -- no one can actually prove that they've been left out out of an actual Op because someone else had the gear from the exploit. Going on and on about this is nothing more than fear-mongering. AGAIN -- regarding any possible effect on "the market" -- if the prices go down so that more players can more easily afford mats and gear, thus giving them better access to the tools they want in the game, then GOOD, and so what if it "damages" the precious "economy". No one has had anything taken away from them, no one has lost anything, no one has been hurt, in any tangible way, by this exploit. No, the people who took advantage of it probably shouldn't have done it. Yes, it's technically against the TOS that gives exists solely to give Bioware legal cover to take whatever action they deem necessary for profitability. But at the end of the day, so many of you are reacting to the equivalent of driving with expired plates with the sort of moral outrage normally reserved for devastating violations of one person by another -- and in many cases, anyone who points out this uncomfortable disconnect is being lashed out at with the entire quiver of tired, lame, silly interwebs commentary. In other words you can't actually prove it wrong or even logically debate it at all and thus it must be right. You should have saved some typing time and just stated that in the first place. Thanks for your confirmation though. I expect you will now stop telling people they are imagining things about the effect of the ravagers exploit since you cannot substantiate it had no effect on them at all. For what it's worth if I thought any of your above post was at all a logical rebuttal of mine or even addressed the simple points I made I would offer my counters to your points but it's starting to seem like you are posting for the sake of posting and/or trying to save face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainot-keel Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 The issue is not if it was wrong (obviously it was, unless of course you hit your head against a rock for a living), nor is it whether or not people were affected by it (again, of course they were). The issue is twofold.... 1) Was this as far reaching as some claim, and did it do any substantial harm to the game or it's players. 2) Does the loss of those players hurt the game. I would say it is a resounding no on both counts. First, the group that was involved was likely small, and the folks directly affected also likely small. Second, losing such a small group of player, temporarily or permanent likely would mean nothing to the game or it's majority populace overall. So, if one assumes both points (and it is just an assumption of course) then one likely has to ask the next question... Why should I care? Why should I care who was involved, what they did, or what happened to them as a result. If I tend to avoid end game play, do not care what other players do unless it directly blocks my ability to play the game in some way AND feel like any punishment will likely have little to no affect on the game overall then why in the world would I have a dog in this fight? Or why should I? If i assume...another assumption mind you....that it is likely most players feel this way this may be a clue as to why nothing was done in the past, perhaps the punishment was light, and this type of behavior will likely continue...because it generally does not affect most players. Sure, one can say it is wrong to cheat, and there is no doubt that is a common belief, especially when playing with other folks....the "in all fairness" thing. But If I don't have a seat ringside, why would I care who is fighting and who wins? I just don't buy the idea that I am SUPPOSED to care about this, otherwise I am part of the problem. From my seat there is no problem.... Until there is a reason to care I don't see many folks lining up to pick up the pitchforks. I'm just being honest here. I know this is not a very honorable opinion, but it is a truthful one. It's a game. Therefore if I am not affected, it is not an issue to me. The only place I would take exception is if it hurt the game's overall ability to earn revenue....I have an interest in that. And I don't see this affecting revenue one way or another. Why do you think you caring or not is relevant to the issue ? What do you think people should do with that, if anything ? You don't care. That's totally fine. And ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeNaCe-NZ Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 The issue is not if it was wrong (obviously it was, unless of course you hit your head against a rock for a living), nor is it whether or not people were affected by it (again, of course they were). The issue is twofold.... 1) Was this as far reaching as some claim, and did it do any substantial harm to the game or it's players. 2) Does the loss of those players hurt the game. I would say it is a resounding no on both counts. First, the group that was involved was likely small, and the folks directly affected also likely small. Second, losing such a small group of player, temporarily or permanent likely would mean nothing to the game or it's majority populace overall. So, if one assumes both points (and it is just an assumption of course) then one likely has to ask the next question... Why should I care? Why should I care who was involved, what they did, or what happened to them as a result. If I tend to avoid end game play, do not care what other players do unless it directly blocks my ability to play the game in some way AND feel like any punishment will likely have little to no affect on the game overall then why in the world would I have a dog in this fight? Or why should I? If i assume...another assumption mind you....that it is likely most players feel this way this may be a clue as to why nothing was done in the past, perhaps the punishment was light, and this type of behavior will likely continue...because it generally does not affect most players. Sure, one can say it is wrong to cheat, and there is no doubt that is a common belief, especially when playing with other folks....the "in all fairness" thing. But If I don't have a seat ringside, why would I care who is fighting and who wins? I just don't buy the idea that I am SUPPOSED to care about this, otherwise I am part of the problem. From my seat there is no problem.... Until there is a reason to care I don't see many folks lining up to pick up the pitchforks. I'm just being honest here. I know this is not a very honorable opinion, but it is a truthful one. It's a game. Therefore if I am not affected, it is not an issue to me. The only place I would take exception is if it hurt the game's overall ability to earn revenue....I have an interest in that. And I don't see this affecting revenue one way or another. I think the group involved is server dependent. Whilst I don't have any solid numbers just in using the Harbinger yesterday it seems it was a massive portion of the Harb community. This was probably how Bioware were able to say it wasn't quite that big as the exploit really didn't go as far as it did on Harb on the other servers. I do have one thing to add to the rest of your post though and a few posters here in particular ... Why should any one not affected in their own eyes and also who didn't partake in the exploit care about how others feel it has affected them? Their opinions aren't hurting anyone, action has been taken by Bioware. They may feel generally aggrieved and feel the need to vent this and fair enough. I find the worst of all are the people who didn't exploit, say they weren't affected, say they don't really care and still bother to reply and/or attack those that say they have been or feel affected. It comes across as rather purposefully inflammatory posting to say the least. I could imagine a cheater arguing "how did my actions affect you" and the cheater and non cheater having it out but there are a few in these threads who don't fall into either category and just seem hell bent on stirring trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hesfalcon Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 I don't have a dog in this fight, but the fleets are ghost towns except for gold spammers. My healer in queue forever and can't get a flashpoint or operation to pop. Game was broken in a technical sense and now it is broken in a social sense. Great move on everyone's part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeNaCe-NZ Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 I don't have a dog in this fight, but the fleets are ghost towns except for gold spammers. My healer in queue forever and can't get a flashpoint or operation to pop. Game was broken in a technical sense and now it is broken in a social sense. Great move on everyone's part. Agree, if cheaters didn't cheat they wouldn't have had to be banned In saying that the smart move from Bioware was gear removal and suspend only the really bad offenders. Instead it seems they've skipped that and suspended and not bothered removing the gear. Whilst I'm happy they've done something it's a bit silly to state gear removal as possibly occurring ( being that it was the smartest option ) yet not one person has come forward in the sources of where one can read of this saying they've lost gear. They did remove schematics though so I am surprised they haven't or can't remove gear also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_of_Mu Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 I don't have a dog in this fight, but the fleets are ghost towns except for gold spammers. My healer in queue forever and can't get a flashpoint or operation to pop. Game was broken in a technical sense and now it is broken in a social sense. Great move on everyone's part. You're assuming that people stopped playing because they have been banned. I've stopped playing because I got bored. Most of my guild mates and friends are in a similar position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schoock Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Thank you! And how long was your ban? Gotta disappoint you: I didn't exploit, so I wasn't banned. P. S. to you: My comment wasn't about whether I think the actions of BW were justified or not, it was about your style. P. S. to the thread in general, not you personally: If I didn't know people better, I would be shocked to see how you moral crusaders think that anyone who doesn't agree with you must be an exploiter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idnewton Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) This is where we just have to disagree, then. I don't care about "the rules" simply for the sake of being rules. I care about why the rules are in place, what logic and purpose underlies them, and what harm is done by breaking them. I don't ignore them, as there's often a cost for doing so that exceeds the benefit, but that's entirely separate from the things that I don't do because I'm seeking to avoid causing harm to others as much as possible. There are two different kinds of rules -- rules that exist for procedural/technical reasons, and rules that exist for moral reasons. Driving with expired plates doesn't harm anyone. Theft, murder, assault, etc, do cause harm. As far as I'm concerned, much of the reaction to this is just people confusing the two, and having a moral reaction to the violation of a technical rule. So if a kid cheats on a math test, it's morally right because he isn't directly causing harm to anyone? yikes... I suppose this is the internet, but still. PS: This post hits the nail right on the head.it's starting to seem like you are posting for the sake of posting and/or trying to save face. Edited January 31, 2015 by idnewton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainot-keel Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Agree, if cheaters didn't cheat they wouldn't have had to be banned In saying that the smart move from Bioware was gear removal and suspend only the really bad offenders. Instead it seems they've skipped that and suspended and not bothered removing the gear. Whilst I'm happy they've done something it's a bit silly to state gear removal as possibly occurring ( being that it was the smartest option ) yet not one person has come forward in the sources of where one can read of this saying they've lost gear. They did remove schematics though so I am surprised they haven't or can't remove gear also. I don't understand why they decided that people should keep the gear. IMO, the removal of it should have been the one common action in all cases. That is, assuming BW saying they knew exactly what people got and blah blah wasn't just BS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idnewton Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 I don't ignore them, as there's often a cost for doing so that exceeds the benefit OK, at this point, you've shown your opinion is worth less than dirt. Your post literally says "I break the rules whenever I can get away with it." If you have no sense of moral direction, why do you think your opinion matters on a topic directly related to it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idnewton Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 I don't understand why they decided that people should keep the gear. IMO, the removal of it should have been the one common action in all cases. That is, assuming BW saying they knew exactly what people got and blah blah wasn't just BS Because every instance of the exploit gave people random gear, plus the chestpiece. Some of those items stayed as tokens, some were turned in, some had modifications split up and moved around or reverse engineered or legacy mailed... It's impossible to track. BW simply does not have the time or resources necessary to track down and delete every single individual modification and item. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) In other words you can't actually prove it wrong . *snip remaining lashing out* You made the claims, the burden of proof is on you. You claimed that harm was done, you prove it. Until then, no one has demonstrated that any tangible harm has occurred. The very notion that you can claim tangible harm was done and it's to be assumed true until someone can prove that no harm at all was done is the worst sort of intellectual dishonesty. Edited January 31, 2015 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Divona Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) But they won, lol. Today I ran Ravagers with a new guild that I joined a couple of days ago with my scoundrel. It was an alt run. Half the group was filled to the brim with 198s. I checked their achievments and there was no doubt what happened. At the end, they commented how they got their one day suspension.... "totally worth it"... "yeah, i'd do it again".... "definitely" If the "punishment" is but encouraging them to do it again, well... lol.... Confirmed from my sources aswell some exploiters didnt loose any of their armor or mods only schematics and some didnt get temporary ban also. And those are not exploiters who did it only once. It seems to me that this gives clear message to the future exploits, you will not get banned doing exploits or loosing your gear unless you try to make profit by reselling stuff you obtained with exploit. Thats how things really are... Edited January 31, 2015 by Divona Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainot-keel Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 You made the claims, the burden of proof is on you. You claimed that harm was done, you prove it. Until then, no one has demonstrated that any tangible harm has occurred. The very notion that you can claim tangible harm was done and it's to be assumed true until someone can prove that no harm at all was done is the worst sort of intellectual dishonesty. Why are you so convinced that someone has to prove anything to you ? You are not that special, you know. They broke the rules they agreed with. Period. That's plenty and that's enough. You said it yourself. You follow the rules only because there could be bad consequences for you. If there aren't any, you wouldn't be following them at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) Why are you so convinced that someone has to prove anything to you ? You are not that special, you know. Someone is claiming that harm was done... and demanding that we accept that claim unless we can prove that otherwise. This is simply a bass-ackwards burden of proof. There's nothing "special" about pointing that out. They broke the rules they agreed with. Period. That's plenty and that's enough. You said it yourself. You follow the rules only because there could be bad consequences for you. If there aren't any, you wouldn't be following them at all. That's a very simplistic reading of what I said in the post you're likely referring to. Edited January 31, 2015 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) Why do you think you caring or not is relevant to the issue ? What do you think people should do with that, if anything ? You don't care. That's totally fine. And ? It was a specific response to the "if you don't care you are part of the problem" folks. That much should have been clear from the actual post you quoted. I think the group involved is server dependent. Whilst I don't have any solid numbers just in using the Harbinger yesterday it seems it was a massive portion of the Harb community. This was probably how Bioware were able to say it wasn't quite that big as the exploit really didn't go as far as it did on Harb on the other servers. I do have one thing to add to the rest of your post though and a few posters here in particular ... Why should any one not affected in their own eyes and also who didn't partake in the exploit care about how others feel it has affected them? Their opinions aren't hurting anyone, action has been taken by Bioware. They may feel generally aggrieved and feel the need to vent this and fair enough. I find the worst of all are the people who didn't exploit, say they weren't affected, say they don't really care and still bother to reply and/or attack those that say they have been or feel affected. It comes across as rather purposefully inflammatory posting to say the least. I could imagine a cheater arguing "how did my actions affect you" and the cheater and non cheater having it out but there are a few in these threads who don't fall into either category and just seem hell bent on stirring trouble. My issue is not with those that are affected and indicate so. Only with those that claim that apathy translates to guilt. I do take issue with the contention that "no one was hurt, so it isn't wrong" crowd, but not enough to battle it out. If folks want to feel that way, as silly as that stance is, so be it. Edited January 31, 2015 by LordArtemis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugattiboy Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Straight from an exploiter on the swtor subreddit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) I do take issue with the contention that "no one was hurt, so it isn't wrong" crowd, but not enough to battle it out. If folks want to feel that way, as silly as that stance is, so be it. My position has been and continues to be "If the demanded punishment for jaywalking is 10 years hard labor, or 50 lashes in the public square, then better no punishment at all." The question is not whether it's wrong, it's whether or not it's harmful enough to warrant the sort of reaction we've seen from some players, to warrant the consequences that have been demanded. Evidently, expressing that position is enough for a subset of those players to have presumed I was guilty of the thing they were so enraged by, or that I was no better than those who had done it. This nonsense has only served to harden my position considerably over the last month and a half. I find myself uncomfortable with the idea of standing silent while some are, as an analogy, loudly demanding life imprisonment for those who drive with expired license plates. And until someone can offer actual proof otherwise, that's all this is. For those who are standing there, in effect, accusing someone of theft, you only need show us what the accused has stolen from you. Only so far, none of you have. Edited January 31, 2015 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Divona Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) Straight from an exploiter on the swtor subreddit. Yep its confirmed now. Majority kept items and some lost few schematics and that was it. What have we learned from this? I think i learned that Bioware cant track down items and activites on its own game. Edited January 31, 2015 by Divona Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frybert Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) Yep its confirmed now. Majority kept items and some lost few schematics and that was it. What have we learned from this? I think i learned that Bioware cant track down items and activites on its own game. A few of us have said that for a while. Quite a bit of Musco's 'Stage 2' was nothing more than posturing on BW's part. ETA: I guess we'll see next week when the 7 Dayers get back. Edited January 31, 2015 by Frybert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafaman Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Lol. So.... typical MMO wishy washyness. For some the punishments weren't enough, for others it was over the top. And several are crying "unfair!" on both sides. It is done and dusted. /yawn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khiriath Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 But they won, lol. Today I ran Ravagers with a new guild that I joined a couple of days ago with my scoundrel. It was an alt run. Half the group was filled to the brim with 198s. . Sorry but having 198 gear does not make one a cheater. You can have done none of the new hard modes and have full 198 gear. All you had to do was grind lvl 55ops for the 7weeks that they were giving ultimate coms(150 ulties/week for 7weeks= 1050 ultimate coms = full set of 198 gear). Unless you know someone cheated, don't assume that b/c they have 198gear they did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frybert Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Lol. So.... typical MMO wishy washyness. For some the punishments weren't enough, for others it was over the top. And several are crying "unfair!" on both sides. It is done and dusted. /yawn Thats why in the past their policy was not to disclose what was being done. They did this time with the expected results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neoforcer Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) What we got here is BW Deflated there own punishment. They were supposed to give every one 12.5-13.5 pounds punishment but they only did 2 pounds. This is why ravagergate is a joke in it self. LOL Eric Musco has declined comment on there punishment Deflation's. LOL An investigation by Micky Mouse is on going into why there no cheese served in BW lunch room. And I "quote" this is an outrage Mickey Mouse said. LOL there my fun for the day Edited January 31, 2015 by Neoforcer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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