Action For The Ravager's Exploit

[Tsillah]

Sorry, but understanding why something is wrong is critical. Simply repeating "because it's wrong!" isn't an answer, any more than "Because it's blue!" is an answer to "Why is the sky blue?"

 

The problem is that people who ask this question don't want to know the answer but will try to debunk every word someone says about it, because they don't think it SHOULD hurt anybody and therefore they already decided beforehand they will not be swayed from this point of view.

 

In other words, there is no point in answering a question when people don't want the answer.

 

It all has to do with things like fairness, equal opportunity and a general rule that needs to be enforced because exploits can have varying effects on the game, some a lot worse than others. But as soon as you allow people to go from A to B, going to C doesn't seem like such a big deal anymore.

 

If BW would've said ok we'll just forget about it, it's basically saying that this was ok. And the next time people will go further.

 

If you really don't get these principles and still think that invalidating rewards who get their value in part from beating content rather than just have them handed to some and not others...trust me, you will never get it. And then you'll just have to accept that the fact that you don't get it doesn't actually mean it doesn't exist.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Tsillah

[Max_Killjoy]

The problem is that people who ask this question don't want to know the answer but will try to debunk every word someone says about it, because they don't think it SHOULD hurt anybody and therefore they already decided beforehand they will not be swayed from this point of view.

 

In other words, there is no point in answering a question when people don't want the answer.

 

It all has to do with things like fairness, equal opportunity and a general rule that needs to be enforced because exploits can have varying effects on the game, some a lot worse than others. But as soon as you allow people to go from A to B, going to C doesn't seem like such a big deal anymore.

 

If BW would've said ok we'll just forget about it, it's basically saying that this was ok. And the next time people will go further.

 

If you really don't get these principles and still think that invalidating rewards who get their value in part from beating content rather than just have them handed to some and not others...trust me, you will never get it. And then you'll just have to accept that the fact that you don't get it doesn't actually mean it doesn't exist.

 

That's a shame that it's come to that, because I'd like to understand the other point of view here and get some reasoning beyond "it's wrong because it's wrong".

 

It's even more of a shame, because, evidently, wanting to actually understand what makes something wrong and figure out the thinking involved, has lead to being singled out for juvenile personal commentary from multiple posters I've ended up putting on ignore to avoid the shrill, petty nonsense.

 

As an important piece of background, understand that I view gear as a tool to be acquired, nothing more and nothing less. It's very hard for me to get the mindset that sees gear as a reward and the reason why someone would run content. To me, it's a tool that's used to run content, or make a character appear a certain way, or... and content is run because you enjoy running it for some reason, not simply because you'll "get stuff".

Edited February 1, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[JainiaDral]

What it is, fundamentally, is a values dispute. Utilitarians clashing with so-called "fair sportsmen." The sad and destructive part for any community is when some from either extreme begins hunting and shaming the other, both on the forums and in-game. It creates a toxic atmosphere that's only starting to slowly blow over.

 

Neither side fundamentally understands the other, especially "sportsmen" trying to grok utilitarians. It'll never happen.

 

Meanwhile, the pixels on the screen begin to dim in the gas. The elusive quality of "fun" flees the mouse-clicks.

 

Been reading about the different culture that's sprung up around Destiny-- the cuture of community against game designer. People have fun cheesing bosses, and I can only imagine that breeds a healthier, more cohesive community.

 

"Sportsmen" probably have an academically correct philosophical term to apply to them, but I'm too lazy to google-- sorry.

Edited February 1, 2015 by JainiaDral

[Khevar]

That's a shame that it's come to that, because I'd like to understand the other point of view here and get some reasoning beyond "it's wrong because it's wrong".

Are you trying to understand the point of view: "it was wrong to exploit Ravagers"?

 

If so, this is really easy to explain: It's against the rules. Plain and simple.

 

Someone that follows the rules tends to get annoyed at those that don't follow the rules. For example, I don't torrent game software. I either buy the game if I like it, or I don't play it at all. But there other people that torrent games, and then proceed to offer up all manner of justifications about why it is okay. I personally find that annoying.

 

OR are you trying to understand the point of view: "murderdeathkill anyone that exploited Ravagers"?

 

That one is harder to understand -- I can't help you there.

[LordArtemis]

Was it wrong? Yes.

 

Why? You didnt earn what you got.

 

Were punishments warranted? Sure.

 

Does morality play into it?

Give me a break. This is a video game, not sunday service. We were looking at morality in the rear view mirror the moment this game launched.

 

FAIR. That is the operative word. Was it FAIR.

 

No. And that is the point.

[Myxam]

Let me break Eric post down for you holy hell there were more people doing the exploit then we let on so now we have to take it easy on people or not have a game at all. how do i know this it is because my server went from standard to ghost town in one night so did most of the other servers i watch the server status on swtor. There was no way for them to do what you ask.Hell gen chat went from people talking to only credit farmers. Yavin 4 had 3 instances when normally there are 7 or 8 every night. This should tell you some thing about the action. They miss reported how many people did it.

 

One day bans Eric, for what amounts to months of skipped content? This gear tier and the one following are virtually ruined because of the exploit and the worst I've heard of across the forums for this game is a day off.

 

A lecture isn't really something I expected to need to do but the point of a punishment is to diminish the gain of breaking the rules, therefore the punishment needs to equivalent or greater than the act. In this case, Month long bans, Gear Comm and Schem removals, and outright Permanent Bans. (Perhaps you need clarification here so) Where necessary but not petty wrist slapping in the face what amounts to a very large flow breaking exploit.

 

Its far too late for any of this now, but the Management needs to understand that an action like this is an open invitation for exploitation because you've shown leniency on its punishment. Exploits (especially economic and gameplay centric ones) can literally destroy a game in weeks, look to Elder Scrolls Online -- it was devastated by a Duplication Glitch at launch that didn't get patched until Five to Six weeks into the game's release. Players left the game in droves and what was anticipated to be a competitor to World of Warcraft is now seen as Shovelware.

 

Read the whole post and don't cut little bits off you can cry about when it removes the context of the thing said. And rollbacks do exist in their toolkit.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Myxam

[idnewton]

Read the whole post and don't cut little bits off you can cry about when it removes the context of the thing said. And rollbacks do exist in their toolkit.

 

Ahahahahahahahaha... Oh yeah, let's roll the entire game back by several weeks, that'll fix the issue.

 

 

Sure, but fixing a mole hill by making a mountain instead is not even a remotely viable solution. All of this whining about this slot machine or that exploit is really just people feigning emotional reactions to this or that because they feel like they have sufficient justification to do so without being called on it. Well, all of that pretense BS would be nothing compared to the real **** show if ANY mmo was rolled back by multiple weeks.

 

There is literally no issue big enough to justify rolling an entire game back by weeks. The amount of players who would quit over that would be way more than some random operation exploit drama BS.

Edited February 1, 2015 by idnewton

[Khiriath]

I know the difference between 198 comm gear and BiS items that come from tokens. When they have as the only 198 bonus set item the chest, and then in every other slot 198 BiS mods and enhancements, plus having as on the only achievement on HM Ravagers the very last boss, well....

What do you think happened ? That they were pugs for last boss in a legit run and for some awesome miracle boss dropped like 50 chests tokens so they geared main and alts and that was it ?

 

BiS is mostly a myth. The mods of a chestpiece aren't going to give you optimized stats just because you moved them to all the other bits as well. But again, let's take your 198 optimized gear for example.

 

I have 12 toons. I regularly raid with only 2 of them. I farmed and maxed out planetary coms and ultimate coms before the early access open so that I would have maximum basic coms on day 1. At the end of the first 24hrs, I had four toons in optimized 186 gear. by the close of early access 10.

 

Right away I began grinding ulti-coms with every lvl 60 toon, and essentially optimizing my two raiding toons in 198 gear. So since I min/maxed my gear on my primary raiding toons through hard work, I get to have muppets like you accusing me of cheating. Great.

[eartharioch]

BiS is mostly a myth. The mods of a chestpiece aren't going to give you optimized stats just because you moved them to all the other bits as well. But again, let's take your 198 optimized gear for example.

 

I have 12 toons. I regularly raid with only 2 of them. I farmed and maxed out planetary coms and ultimate coms before the early access open so that I would have maximum basic coms on day 1. At the end of the first 24hrs, I had four toons in optimized 186 gear. by the close of early access 10.

 

Right away I began grinding ulti-coms with every lvl 60 toon, and essentially optimizing my two raiding toons in 198 gear. So since I min/maxed my gear on my primary raiding toons through hard work, I get to have muppets like you accusing me of cheating. Great.

 

I don't think BiS means what you think it means.

[Quraswren]

Here's the gaping, yawning chasm of a divide that's probably never going to be bridged.

 

Until someone can demonstrate that exploiting this bug actually "hurt" other players, some of us are never going to consider this more than a technical violation, the breaking of a rule but not a moral transgression.

 

In the grand scheme of the real world no, few care and it doesn't carry much weight. However, in the gameing world, cheating and exploiting should and will always be a no-no. There may not be a tangible thing to grasp in one scenario but might be one in another.

 

The dilusion you have is thinking just because the cheaters did soemthing that only affects others in a minor way (lets say crafting) it should be seen as a lesser offense. I cannot back that idea at all because in the world of MMO gaming, no cheater is needed. If they can be banned, ban them.

 

We're asking why this was wrong.

 

It is wrong because you are cheating the game. Cheating in and of itself is wrong and especially so in online games. It is wrong because it goes against fair play and any integrity in gaming. Doesn't matter if it in your face cheating or some goof that cheats a boss and takes his loot over and over for week without actually doing anything to get it.

 

While the broken rule allows Bioware to do as they see fit, as this is a privately-run business and they can refuse service at their discretion... there's just nothing that rises to the level of engendering a moral response.

 

BW's rule isn't broken. IT allows them to do what is needed.

Sorry you seem to thinking cheating is a minor offense but I do not. I do not tolerate cheaters. In real life we kick them out. I got no problem with it happening in a game. If cheaters can be banned. Good riddance. Not a single game ever made needs a cheater.

 

Others clearly view breaking a rule as a moral transgression, full stop. They say it's wrong because it's cheating, and cheating is wrong, and that's that.

 

Given that cheating both in the real world and in the gaming world is indeed wrong. That is that.

 

Sorry, but understanding why something is wrong is critical. Simply repeating "because it's wrong!" isn't an answer, any more than "Because it's blue!" is an answer to "Why is the sky blue?"

 

I understand why cheating and exploiting the game is wrong. I know why it is wrong in both real life and in the world on online gaming. Games have to have a sense of fair play. They have to keep a sense of integrity in that aspect or there can be social repercussions that start to happen as well as business problems. You cannot have a game that allows cheating and exploiting. No matter how you spin cheating to be some lesser problem. It never is.

 

Cheating in games is not good for games. It's not good for the player base and those that cheat need to be removed. As I said, not a single game ever made needs anyone that cheats just for some personal gain or just because they feel like it's no big deal, "who did I harm".

Edited February 1, 2015 by Quraswren

[Max_Killjoy]

In the grand scheme of the real world no, few care and it doesn't carry much weight. However, in the gameing world, cheating and exploiting should and will always be a no-no. There may not be a tangible thing to grasp in one scenario but might be one in another.

 

The dilusion you have is thinking just because the cheaters did soemthing that only affects others in a minor way (lets say crafting) it should be seen as a lesser offense. I cannot back that idea at all because in the world of MMO gaming, no cheater is needed. If they can be banned, ban them.

 

 

 

It is wrong because you are cheating the game. IT is wrong because it goes against fair play and any integrity in gaming. Doesn't matter if it in your face cheating or some goof that cheats a boss and takes his loot over and over for week without actually doing anything to get it.

 

 

 

Sorry oyu seem to thinking cheating is a minor offense but I do not. The rule is in no way broken and if cheaters can be banned. Good ridiance. Not a single game ever made needs a cheater.

 

 

 

Given that cheating both in the real world and in the gaming world is indeed wrong. That is that.

 

 

 

I understand why cheating and exploiting the game is wrong. I know why it is wrong in both real life and in the world on online gaming. Games have to have a sense of fair play. They have to keep a sense of integrity in that aspect or there can be social repercussions that start to happen as well as business problems. You cannot have a game that allows cheating and exploiting. No matter how you spin cheating to be some lesser problem. It never is.

 

Cheating in games is not good for games. It's not good for the player base and those that cheat need to be removed. As I said, not a single game ever made needs anyone that cheats just for some personal gain or just because they feel like it's no big deal, "who did I harm".

 

You keep saying "It's not good for the game" and "it's not fair".

 

On the first question, how is it not good, other than coming right back around to "cheating is bad"?

 

On the second question, that simply comes back to misplaced concern about how other people got their tools (that is, gear).

[Raphael_diSanto]

That's a shame that it's come to that, because I'd like to understand the other point of view here and get some reasoning beyond "it's wrong because it's wrong".

 

It's even more of a shame, because, evidently, wanting to actually understand what makes something wrong and figure out the thinking involved, has lead to being singled out for juvenile personal commentary from multiple posters I've ended up putting on ignore to avoid the shrill, petty nonsense.

 

As an important piece of background, understand that I view gear as a tool to be acquired, nothing more and nothing less. It's very hard for me to get the mindset that sees gear as a reward and the reason why someone would run content. To me, it's a tool that's used to run content, or make a character appear a certain way, or... and content is run because you enjoy running it for some reason, not simply because you'll "get stuff".

 

You're basically right, Max. It really just does come down to a fundamental difference in the way some people view "right" and "wrong"

 

I take it from your posts that you're a "no harm, no foul" kind of guy. No one really got hurt over this, so where's the harm in a little exploiting? I don't know you, so I apologize if I'm off base, here.

 

For some people, (and I'm not saying I'm one of them. I don't raid, so I have no horse in this race. I don't see what the big deal is over the entire fiasco.) the existence of harm is irrelevant, when determining whether there was foul.

 

If the rules say do A and you do B instead, you've broken the rules and thus you are In The Wrong. Even more so, if B gets you an advantage over a rule-abiding player who's honor-bound to do A. (His own code of honor, not some objective one; they don't exist). But even if there was no advantage or comparison between a player who does A and a player who does B, there's some people who simply say "The rules say A and so everyone should do A. That's what the rules say. Follow the rules. That's what you're supposed to do, to be a 'good' person."

 

It's a fundamental core value for some people. They can't really explain why they think it's wrong to break those rules any more than you can justify why you think "No harm, no foul" is an okay philosophy to live by. It's just the way you've grown and developed as people. It can't really get any more clear than "You broke the rules, and breaking rules is wrong.", which is unfortunate because that statement isn't really very clear at all. But really, there's no "why" it's wrong. In that person's head, it just feels morally wrong to break those rules.

 

I don't think you're going to get a satisfactory answer, Max. Or at least, not one that will satisfy you. I think you're looking for something that doesn't exist, a rationalization where there is none, because when it comes to things like rule-breaking, exploiting, and no-harm-no-foul type moral situations, everyone's different, and most folk don't actually have rational reasons for why they believe what they believe.

 

This one comes from our gut. It's not a higher brain function.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Raphael_diSanto

[Max_Killjoy]

You're basically right, Max. It really just does come down to a fundamental difference in the way some people view "right" and "wrong"

 

I take it from your posts that you're a "no harm, no foul" kind of guy. No one really got hurt over this, so where's the harm in a little exploiting? I don't know you, so I apologize if I'm off base, here.

 

For some people, (and I'm not saying I'm one of them. I don't raid, so I have no horse in this race. I don't see what the big deal is over the entire fiasco.) the existence of harm is irrelevant, when determining whether there was foul.

 

If the rules say do A and you do B instead, you've broken the rules and thus you are In The Wrong. Even more so, if B gets you an advantage over a rule-abiding player who's honor-bound to do A. (His own code of honor, not some objective one; they don't exist). But even if there was no advantage or comparison between a player who does A and a player who does B, there's some people who simply say "The rules say A and so everyone should do A. That's what the rules say. Follow the rules. That's what you're supposed to do, to be a 'good' person."

 

It's a fundamental core value for some people. They can't really explain why they think it's wrong to break those rules any more than you can justify why you think "No harm, no foul" is an okay philosophy to live by. It's just the way you've grown and developed as people. It can't really get any more clear than "You broke the rules, and breaking rules is wrong.", which is unfortunate because that statement isn't really very clear at all. But really, there's no "why" it's wrong. In that person's head, it just feels morally wrong to break those rules.

 

I don't think you're going to get a satisfactory answer, Max. Or at least, not one that will satisfy you. I think you're looking for something that doesn't exist, a rationalization where there is none, because when it comes to things like rule-breaking, exploiting, and no-harm-no-foul type moral situations, everyone's different, and most folk don't actually have rational reasons for why they believe what they believe.

 

This one comes from our gut. It's not a higher brain function.

 

I've long been of the opinion that people should rationally and objectively examine their ideas about right and wrong. If their ideas are sound, then they've nothing to worry about. If their ideas aren't sound, then they can either face that head-on, or continue to live in a state of cognitive dissonance. Much suffering and hypocrisy arises out of unsound moral/ethical standards.

 

My concern in this matter is two-fold, and neither is actually a matter of whether cheating is wrong.

1) Does "exploiting" a bug in a manner that doesn't affect anyone else's gameplay, actually count as cheating?

2) Does the harsh level of punishment being demanded by some, fit the level of harm caused?

 

And there's a third broader question:

3) Why do some people care so much how other people got their tools (their gear)?

[Quraswren]

You keep saying "It's not good for the game" and "it's not fair".

 

Cheating isn't good for gaming. Doesn't matter if it's checkers or the most complicated game in the world.

 

When it comes to online gaming, no game needs a cheater much less anyone who wants to break the rules just for personal gain.

 

On the first question, how is it not good, other than coming right back around to "cheating is bad"?

 

Clearly you just cant read. Cheating hurts the gaming in a sense of fair play that all games need to carry. Everyone needs to have a sense of that and especially so in online MMO's. Thats why every MMo has rules against gaming. They you have teh business stand point. You cannot have games that continue to let cheaters run rampant as this exploit did. Games that were so self-important they went so far as to throw it back in BW's face in a, "I dare you do stop me from cheating" That doesn't do the game any good.

 

Then you have cheating just being generally unfair to others. Way to many do the content and do it as it was intended but then see some dummy cheat the system for the same reward and do nothing to get them. Thats a cancer no game needs.

 

Cheating in and of itself is wrong in gaming. There is no place for it.

 

On the second question, that simply comes back to misplaced concern about how other people got their tools (that is, gear).

 

To answer your second question, if you're cheating to get those tools, then you do not deserve to have them much less play. I don't care to tolerate cheating in any form. If they can be banned so be it. As I said, not a single online game ever made needs a cheater.

[LordArtemis]

 

My concern in this matter is two-fold, and neither is actually a matter of whether cheating is wrong.

1) Does "exploiting" a bug in a manner that doesn't affect anyone else's gameplay, actually count as cheating?

 

Of course it does.

 

2) Does the harsh level of punishment being demanded by some, fit the level of harm caused?

 

Of course not.

 

And there's a third broader question:

3) Why do some people care so much how other people got their tools (their gear)?

 

Fairness. Folks do not want to play games they feel is unfair. One of the reasons folks dislike P2W so much (real P2W, not the manufactured definition of P2W that most folks use).

 

For instance, due to a bug Silvers were cheating. That was unfair, and folks didn't like it.

 

Fairness is a pretty big issue for some folks.

[Max_Killjoy]

Cheating isn't good for gaming. Doesn't matter if it's checkers or the most complicated game in the world.

 

When it comes to online gaming, no game needs a cheater much less anyone who wants to break the rules just for personal gain.

 

 

Clearly you just cant read. Cheating hurts the gaming in a sense of fair play that all games need to carry. Everyone needs to have a sense of that and especially so in online MMO's. Thats why every MMo has rules against gaming. They you have teh business stand point. You cannot have games that continue to let cheaters run rampant as this exploit did. Games that were so self-important they went so far as to throw it back in BW's face in a, "I dare you do stop me from cheating" That doesn't do the game any good.

 

Then you have cheating just being generally unfair to others. Way to many do the content and do it as it was intended but then see some dummy cheat the system for the same reward and do nothing to get them. Thats a cancer no game needs.

 

Cheating in and of itself is wrong in gaming. There is no place for it.

 

 

To answer your second question, if you're cheating to get those tools, then you do not deserve to have them much less play. I don't care to tolerate cheating in any form. If they can be banned so be it. As I said, not a single online game ever made needs a cheater.

 

How does this exploit hurt the "sense of fair play"? Did it take something from you, or deny you something?

 

Also, you keep referring to the loot as a "reward". Would you do the content without the rewards, or would you quit doing the content if you could get the same gear, etc, from a vendor or on the CM or on the GTN for what you consider a reasonable price? After you have the stuff, would you use it to do other content?

[TravelersWay]

You keep saying "It's not good for the game" and "it's not fair".

 

On the first question, how is it not good, other than coming right back around to "cheating is bad"?

 

On the second question, that simply comes back to misplaced concern about how other people got their tools (that is, gear).

 

Whether it's a simple video game, or a national pasttime, like Baseball, there needs to be a sense of integrity in all that we do. If we do not maintain some sense of that integrity, then nothing we do really has any meaning in the end, and as such ends up not being worth doing at all. So yes, allowing exploiters to go unpunished in any video game hurts the game and hurts me as a gamer. My reputation as a gamer with honor and integrity is soiled when a game does not maintain some level of fair play, regardless of the nature of the game. We as a community suffer when those looking in from the outside potentially see that cheating is accepted by those without a sense of honor and integrity, and therefore our form of entertainment suffers.

 

Would any major competitive sport be as big as it is now, or even taken seriously if there was no consequences for cheating? I think not. Just because we play games as a pasttime for fun and entertainment doesn't mean we should still not hold to some level of integrity while playing, and rid ourselves of those who refuse to do so. Fortunately, the majority of the gaming community still has a sense of fair play and want to play games that they know offer and enforce as fair a playing field that they can - whether that be PvE or PvP. The games that give the appearance that they don't will then suffer from lack of a good playerbase and will eventually go away.

[Max_Killjoy]

Of course it does.

 

Why? How?

 

Does using the dev console in a single-player game to add gear or levels or whatever count as cheating? One literally cannot harm anyone else's enjoyment of the game by doing so. To me, that's not cheating at all -- someone bought the game, and is doing things in that game that they enjoy.

[Raphael_diSanto]

1) Does "exploiting" a bug in a manner that doesn't affect anyone else's gameplay, actually count as cheating?

Well, now we're back to the "no harm, no foul" concept, right?

 

Because, technically, any time you break the rules, it can legitimately be defined as "cheating", imo. Whether it's "okay" to cheat in that manner - that's an entirely different moral question, and one each person has to determine for themselves. I suppose it's similar to the concept of the "little white lie". It's still a lie, even if it doesn't hurt anyone.

 

2) Does the harsh level of punishment being demanded by some, fit the level of harm caused?

That's another moral question, unfortunately. Appropriate punishment for any given infraction is a question that's plagued humanity for millennia and will continue to do so, I suspect. Remember, often people call for justice, but what they really want is vengeance.

 

3) Why do some people care so much how other people got their tools (their gear)?

See question 1, I suppose. Why? My suspicion would be that - for people with high principles, the principles are actually more important than the tools (gear). It's a little bit like online piracy, I suppose. If you make the argument that any given pirate wouldn't have spent real money on the music in the first place, then the music creator hasn't lost income, because he never would have gotten it, so in this instance, no one was hurt.

 

There's also a "effort vs reward" equation that's baked into some people's brains. Personally, I play video games for entertainment, the same way that I watch movies or read books or listen to music, and since I don't expend any effort to enjoy the content of a book, I don't see why I should have to expend effort to enjoy the content of a video game. Others (very strongly, vociferously and often aggressively) disagree with me. But if you're the type that subscribes to the effort/reward equation, exploiting a bug that allows you to get a piece of gear that you otherwise would not have gotten, could be seen as an affront to their personal values. Especially when it's boasted about and gloating is involved.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Raphael_diSanto

[Max_Killjoy]

Whether it's a simple video game, or a national pasttime, like Baseball, there needs to be a sense of integrity in all that we do. If we do not maintain some sense of that integrity, then nothing we do really has any meaning in the end, and as such ends up not being worth doing at all. So yes, allowing exploiters to go unpunished in any video game hurts the game and hurts me as a gamer. My reputation as a gamer with honor and integrity is soiled when a game does not maintain some level of fair play, regardless of the nature of the game. We as a community suffer when those looking in from the outside potentially see that cheating is accepted by those without a sense of honor and integrity, and therefore our form of entertainment suffers.

 

Would any major competitive sport be as big as it is now, or even taken seriously if there was no consequences for cheating? I think not. Just because we play games as a pasttime for fun and entertainment doesn't mean we should still not hold to some level of integrity while playing, and rid ourselves of those who refuse to do so. Fortunately, the majority of the gaming community still has a sense of fair play and want to play games that they know offer and enforce as fair a playing field that they can - whether that be PvE or PvP. The games that give the appearance that they don't will then suffer from lack of a good playerbase and will eventually go away.

 

Sports are contests in which the players are either as teams or individually pitted against one another. The player who is cheating gains an edge over the other player. the team with cheating players games an edge over the other teams. That's what makes it unfair -- it damages the integrity of the competition.

 

Part of the reason I keep coming back to "what sort of harm, and how much?" when it comes to this exploit is that I'm trying to find the tangible competitive advantage -- indeed, I'm not even finding a competition for it to grant an advantage in.

[LordArtemis]

Why? How?

 

Does using the dev console in a single-player game to add gear or levels or whatever count as cheating? One literally cannot harm anyone else's enjoyment of the game by doing so. To me, that's not cheating at all -- someone bought the game, and is doing things in that game that they enjoy.

 

Why?

 

You are getting something that normally requires work for no work at all. It is just getting handed to you. Unless that method is directly and intentionally provided by the devs, that is cheating.

 

Not sure what you mean by "how", but I would think the why was obvious.

 

If devs INTEND to give you an advantage for little to no effort than of course it is not cheating to participate....like the initial state of the slot machine.

 

I fail to understand why it is so important to you to make sure this is NOT labeled as cheating....so what if it is labeled that way?

 

Bioware ALLOWS certain forms of cheating without action, though they do not support the practice. Two good examples would be Legacy crystal transfer and zoning using strongholds to refresh the display of missions.

 

They have stated in both cases, though it is not as they originally intended or designed the mechanic they would not consider it actionable. Meaning they would allow it.

[Max_Killjoy]

Why?

 

You are getting something that normally requires work for no work at all. It is just getting handed to you. Unless that method is directly and intentionally provided by the devs, that is cheating.

 

Not sure what you mean by "how", but I would think the why was obvious.

 

If devs INTEND to give you an advantage for little to no effort than of course it is not cheating to participate....like the initial state of the slot machine.

 

I fail to understand why it is so important to you to make sure this is NOT labeled as cheating....so what if it is labeled that way?

 

Bioware ALLOWS certain forms of cheating without action, though they do not support the practice. Two good examples would be Legacy crystal transfer and zoning using strongholds to refresh the display of missions.

 

They have stated in both cases, though it is not as they originally intended or designed the mechanic they would not consider it actionable. Meaning they would allow it.

 

I'm trying to understand the outrage, and so far, there's just not that much there. It's mainly been "it is because it is".

 

This really is just a "shrug and move on" issue for me. Bioware fixed the bug, it should be over, but people are still determined to find out who did it, who was punished, were they punished "enough"...

 

I guess I just don't care how other people get their tools, I just care how they use them.

 

 

Are you trying to understand the point of view: "it was wrong to exploit Ravagers"?

 

If so, this is really easy to explain: It's against the rules. Plain and simple.

 

It seems that I've seen too many instances in which "the rules" utterly failed to have anything to do with actual morality or ethics, or were even counter to them, to attach my sense of "wrong" directly to "broke the rule".

Edited February 1, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[Raphael_diSanto]

I'm trying to understand the outrage, and so far, there's just not that much there. It's mainly been "it is because it is".

 

This really is just a "shrug and move on" issue for me. Bioware fixed the bug, it should be over, but people are still determined to find out who did it, who was punished, were they punished "enough"...

 

I guess I just don't care how other people get their tools, I just care how they use them.

 

Like I said, man, this may be one of those things that you simply aren't going to understand, like why some people prefer vanilla ice cream to mint choc chip.

[Raphael_diSanto]

It seems that I've seen too many instances in which "the rules" utterly failed to have anything to do with actual morality or ethics, or were even counter to them, to attach my sense of "wrong" directly to "broke the rule".

 

And this is why there's a huge difference between the Rogue who's Chaotic Good, and the Paladin who's Lawful Good.

 

For some paladins, there's no such thing as Chaotic Good, because the instant you veer away from Lawful, you become Bad, by definition.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Raphael_diSanto

[Quraswren]

How does this exploit hurt the "sense of fair play"? Did it take something from you, or deny you something?

 

Because there is no sense of fair play when you have cheaters that violate rules deliberately. You can question the rule all you want, just like most do but in the end, cheating does not produce a sense of fair play in games when fair play is what most want to see happen.

 

It doesn't need to affect me personally to go against a sense of fair play. It doesn't need to take anything from me. There is no sense of fair play in a game when cheaters are not removed when they are not playing fairly.

 

Also, you keep referring to the loot as a "reward". Would you do the content without the rewards,

 

Not more than once. In SWTOR, after the story is read, I'm their for the rewards. I'm not their to cheat someone out of an earned reward (aka ninja looters) or get gear I do not deserve (aka exploiters and cheaters)

 

or would you quit doing the content if you could get the same gear, etc, from a vendor or on the CM or on the GTN for what you consider a reasonable price?

 

I might quit because the game because to easy. BUt if the games intent was to give all the gear at a reasonable price, that really isn't cheating is it?

 

Exploiting the ravagers boss was indeed cheating and exploiting. There was no fair and reasonable price. IT was a baltent cheat for personal gain that was such as obvious cheat they had no leg to stand on should bans happen.

 

After you have the stuff, would you use it to do other content?

 

Hard to say, at that point is it boring?