Action For The Ravager's Exploit

[Max_Killjoy]

Except, from what I understand, this would be more like if you had a buddy who paid for directv giving you a spare box/dish and letting you hook it up at your house watching under his account.

 

Even in that example, the person with the extra box is taking what can be considered potential income from DirectTV.

 

The people who "exploited" Ravagers didn't take anything from Bioware, income or otherwise.

[ScarletBlaze]

Thank you Eric for the post.

 

in addition, thank you for taking some of the blame for allowing the exploit to last as you did. Yes some of it was BW fault but whether or not people thought BW was going to do anything was actually beside the point.

 

Most of them knew it was against the rules and they decided to do it. I am not going to second guess BW punishment as that decision didn't rest with any of the community.

 

Yes maybe they have had a history of ignoring the exploits but this looks like a new chapter in their book and that is what we will go by. What they did in the past is exactly that in the past.

 

A lot of people will tell you not to dwell on what happened in the past and that is what I am going to suggest here. What they did in the past is in the past . They seem to want to move forward in another direction and that is what we have to go by.

 

Have a good day.

[TUXs]

Except, from what I understand, this would be more like if you had a buddy who paid for directv giving you a spare box/dish and letting you hook it up at your house watching under his account. He may pay the $5 for the extra box on his account, but it's supposed to be at the same address...not down the street or across town.

 

Whatever, my point was his analogy was terrible.

[TravelersWay]

but you can't get away from the fact that most of the players wouldn't have exploited if they honestly believed that BW would do anything to them for exploiting. And those players had good reason for that belief that BW didn't care.

 

Yes you can. You see, there is still something called being honorable and doing the right thing.

 

If I see someone walking down the street and a $100 bill unknowingly falls out of their pocket, I will still pick up the $100 bill and return it to them even if there was no possible chance of they or anyone else knowing I had picked up the money. That is called being honorable and doing the right thing.

 

Cheating, no matter how large or small an incident is inexcusable regardless of whether one thinks they are going to get caught or not.

Edited January 29, 2015 by TravelersWay

[Icebergy]

And perhaps Bioware should consider how their own actions impact others before they hand out punishment?

 

All I was suggesting is to let them know when the bans were occurring so that guilds could plan around it. Obviously the ones benefitting from that planning would be the ones who are NOT being banned.

 

If one of the guys in your local poker night commits a crime, the court isn't going to worry about how it impacts your poker night if the guy goes to jail.

 

Your guildies should have thought about how their bans would impact you before they chose to cheat.

 

This is a small part of the reason why my guild immediately removes any members we find exploiting. The main reason being we have morals choose to surround ourselves with like minded people.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Icebergy

[SithEater]

I think permanent suspension is quite abusive, but 1-7 days for severe exploiters is a good thing.

 

It should have been 15-30 days for extremely severe exploiters rather than permanent suspension.

If you get a perma ban this is more than likely not your first offense or it was not only getting toons gear but also selling lockouts.

 

In other words if you get a perma ban you more than likely deserve it.

[Max_Killjoy]

That kind of thinking is what is wrong with the games; if anyone can exploit at will it removes the want to legitimately get gear and mats that are actually hard to get. Please refrain from giving your opinion as it is useless.

 

You realize that they're only hard to get because of the artificial scarcity / contrived rarity that Bioware imposes in the game design, right?

[Drockter]

I wonder if any of the twerps who accused anyone who questioned their demands for draconian punishment of "being one of the exploiters" will have the guts to publicly apologize to those they accused who are still "somehow" posting here despite the punishment including a forum ban?

 

Nah, they won't.

 

I never called for Perma-Bans on everyone involved, and advocated a scaling tier of action (as was done), and am very happy it wasn't some massive cleave that wiped out a large number of customers/players... I am glad to see this behind us... lets move on now.

 

There are definitely some Forum-PvP wounds that must be mended. How about we not re-open the wounds Max, and put it behind us.

[Alssaran]

That kind of thinking is what is wrong with the games; if anyone can exploit at will it removes the want to legitimately get gear and mats that are actually hard to get. Please refrain from giving your opinion as it is useless.

 

I have a major problem with this post. It's not that people want to exploit and get away with it. It's neither that people want to be lenient with cheaters, hackers and exploiters.

 

My major issue with this is that is, by all accounts, just a public execution. People have been shouting that they want to see punishment done, that they'd rather see this game "burn down than to let a single exploiter get away!". This matter could have been handled completely in private and with the people who were suspended. This, at least in my opinion, just reeks of appeasing the masses.

 

On another matter: No opinion is useless. It's his opinion, and he can give it all he wants to. If you don't agree with it, that's your own business. But it's no more useless than your own opinion would be.

[Icebergy]

You realize that they're only hard to get because of the artificial scarcity / contrived rarity that Bioware imposes in the game design, right?

 

Money is hard to get because of the artificial scarcity / contrived rarity that Wallstreet imposes on the economy, therefore it is OK to rob a bank. After all, its not hurting anybody because of insurance, right?

[Max_Killjoy]

I think they went about this the wrong way. They've admitted to responsibility for the whole thing, so that's good, but they should have simply instituted a clean slate policy, instead.

 

Admit to being responsible, accept the blame, give a few mea culpas and then make it abundantly clear through in-game mails and emails to all accounts that any exploiting going forward will be dealt with severely and quickly, that the days of ignoring exploits and exploiters is now in the past.

 

That way, no one can go forward and exploit and say that they didn't know.

 

You're right in that they have to start somewhere, and it's good that they've taken their share of the guilt for this debacle, but you can't get away from the fact that most of the players wouldn't have exploited if they honestly believed that BW would do anything to them for exploiting. And those players had good reason for that belief that BW didn't care.

 

As much as I generally agree with you on this topic, and think that Bioware stumbled again in going from doing nothing on past exploits to dropping the hammer out of nowhere (likely in response to the disproportional outrage expressed by some players), I have to say this one thing: most people who did take advantage of the bug, did so knowing what they were doing, and it was their choice. They had to decide for themselves whether it was "right" or "wrong", regardless of whether they thought Bioware would ever do anything about it.

[FluffBcca]

I agree, it is fantastic to be done with this. However in the post he says removal of a bunch of stuff, but in the email it says potential loss of learned schematics. Not sure how they can remove it from some but not from others. I personally did not sell anything or make a dime, so I am hopeful that it is the serious abusers who lose their stuff.

[ptwonline]

Your guildies should have thought about how their bans would impact you before they chose to cheat.

 

This is a small part of the reason why my guild immediately removes any members we find exploiting. The main reason being we have morals choose to surround ourselves with like minded people.

 

Oh, get off your high-horse.

 

Morality is not black-and-white. Many people still disagree about whether this was really something wrong to do or not, or worthy of any significant punishment or not.

 

As a society we put in rules and hand out punishments for the things we believe are harmful or in some way undesirable. Well, if the punishments are never handed out, then what's the message? That it's ok. Hence the lack of action for previous exploits became tacit approval.

 

Heck there are still cheats and exploits going on out that that are not being punished, and don't appear to be getting punished for any time soon. Some trivial, some serious. And recent events--like the slot machine fiasco--has reinforced the feelings that when you see something out of line and likely to be corrected at some point, to exploit it hard and fast. So Bioware at best has been sending mixed messages this month, and seems to handle justice pretty unevenly.

 

And as others have pointed out, sometimes there is a feeling of unfairness. Players exploit a bug to gain extra they didn't deserve? PUNISH! LET'S GO THROUGH THE LOGS AND REMOVE THE ILL-GOTTEN GAINS! A bug in game that prevents players from getting their rewards? Oh well, too bad. No, we won't compensate you.

[arinbatastini]

I really appreciate the information from Eric. I would hope more messages come out like this.

 

Now I am going to complain. There is so much cheating/exploiting in this game, it is not funny. Why make this into such a huge issue? I posted this before, but I used the exploit. I did it after the final boss on Ravegers didn't drop any loot so I used it to get the loot not rewarded. If I get banned oh well. But I know of so many people who win trade, use bots, exploit pvp and more. I report when I can, but NOTHING happens. I know someone who has been using a bot to run crafting missions for almost a year (mostly augmentation kits). He has made nearly 1 BILLION credits. Not all from the bot, but he has earned so much using the bot that he controls the market in the GTN. As he put it, he can buy anything. He even brags about selling credits to the gold spammers. I report him on a weekly basis. Nothing has happned and he has many friends just like him. He alone has had more of a negative effect on the market than the raveger exploit.

 

On a side note, Kharma may have caught up with this group. They all did the raverger exploit. So augmentation kits may become cheaper in the near future.

[Kayeri]

Eric, thanks for the post and please thank the team on our behalf. I realize deciding all of this took time and effort balancing that it went on un-fixed for quite some time against the personal responsibility of the players. People who are trying to throw the blame back at Bioware, I have ZERO sympathy for. I do not believe that anyone doing this could not know that this was an exploit and a cheat. You do not get gear, comms, materials, and schematics for nothing in this game. Taking advantage of this was STUPID. It is easily tracked and anyone expecting to get away with this without repercussions was living in a dream world.

 

I think it likely the reason it took so long is that they did acknowledge their own responsibility in letting the exploit go on as long as it did while deciding what actions to take. I am glad Bioware is taking appropriate actions against those who knowingly did this. The exploit was obvious enough that no one could avoid knowing it was both illegal and stupid.

 

You made your own bed, folks, now you'll lie in it for varying lengths of time. We can only hope you'll learn from your errors.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Kayeri

[azudelphi]

And as others have pointed out, sometimes there is a feeling of unfairness. Players exploit a bug to gain extra they didn't deserve? PUNISH! LET'S GO THROUGH THE LOGS AND REMOVE THE ILL-GOTTEN GAINS! A bug in game that prevents players from getting their rewards? Oh well, too bad. No, we won't compensate you.

 

Put in a ticket. When my group did Ravagers SM we were unable to get loot. Ticket was filed. Responded within a few days and we got our stuff.

 

At no point did we go, "Well, we didn't get the loot. Clearly we should find a unintended way to get that loot."

 

And morality may not be black and white, but the ToS are when it comes to exploits. Bioware reserves the rights to punish each exploit as they see fit.

[Max_Killjoy]

Money is hard to get because of the artificial scarcity / contrived rarity that Wallstreet imposes on the economy, therefore it is OK to rob a bank. After all, its not hurting anybody because of insurance, right?

 

Terrible analogy, not least because of your lack of understanding of what makes money "scarce" in reality.

 

RL money is not scarce because of Wall Street, or banks. RL money is scarce because it's used in trade for things that are also scarce to some varying degree and inherently so. There is not an infinite supply of food, or oil, or gold, or cars, or labor, or anything else that is traded and used in the economy. I suggest some research into the concept of scarcity, and the idea of a "post-scarcity" world as a comparison point. Perhaps also look into the diamond market, which is propped up largely by artificially-imposed scarcity due to the actions of a few key players.

 

When real-life money is stolen, the victim loses the ability to use that money to obtain other things that are inherently scarce.

 

Nothing in a video game is inherently scarce -- all scarcity and rarity in a video game is artificially imposed by the designers. No one loses anything or has to replace anything or is denied anything if someone else "steals" extra mats or mods out of a bugged loot drop of any kind. There are an infinite number of copies of Loot Item #425731, and the only people who "lose" when more of them are on the market are the people who relied on that artificially imposed scarcity to increase their count of in-game "currency".

Edited January 29, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[Feargal]

PUNISH! LET'S GO THROUGH THE LOGS AND REMOVE THE ILL-GOTTEN GAINS!

 

Actually, removing ill-gotten gains isn't punishment at all, it's just returning things to the status quo ante. The bans are punishment.

[DOHboy]

Seems that most people fall on the "well its biowares fault for.... leaving it in there, not taking action sooner, making items hard to get etc". This blames someone else for personal responsibility.

 

 

No, the only people who are to blame are the people that willingly and knowingly took part in this action.

bank leaves a bag of $50k in the middle of the floor, regardless of whether it was intentional or not. you take it, you go to jail. Person leaves the keys in their running car, you steal it, you go to jail. You knowingly take stolen items you too can go to jail.

 

Regardless if it was left in there or not. You choose to take part, you reap the consequences. It is a PERSONAL choice and PERSONAL responsibility. Nobody is to blame other than those who choose to break the rules. Now they are paying the consequences.

 

Hell they could purposefully put in bugs/exploits just to see who takes part and choose to ban them (called a sting, works well in real life as well). You still choose to break the rules, you live with the consequences.

[Elracor]

I think it's a bit ridiculous suspensions go before removal of gear. Getting 192/198 set bonus chest pieces on characters in return for a 1d ban is a trade I'd take for most of my characters, at least as long as my /roll's are as terrible as they've been lately.

[GadgetDon]

So there's an op for a long time hadn't dropped loot, and even now in 16 man doesn't drop loot properly. Oh, no, too much trouble to get it fixed quickly, no we can't dig through to see what loot you should've gotten and awarded. But apparently you have loads of time to track down those who took advantage of a bug, find out how much they did it, what they got out of it, and remove it.

 

OK, it's done. I'm not happy about the priorities to put resources on this as opposed to the MANY problems in the game, but it's done. I'm curious about the thinking that made this so much worse than other bugs people have taken advantage of that major action must be taken.

 

And I still say that the biggest problem is that there aren't bright lines between "this is an exploit that will be punished" "this is a minor bug that may get changed in the future" "this is the rewards that the devs decided to give out without really thinking it through" and "operating as designed, you've found one of the things we want to encourage so are rewarding". For example, you can turn bound gear into bound to legacy gear by putting the mods into bound to legacy gear - is that an exploit? Minor bug? Operating as designed? You can buy mods and send them to others in your league and there are some non-obvious implications - is the sending of mods an exploit? is taking advantage of the non-obvious implications an exploit?

 

You'll never say "this is an exploit, don't do it" so at most we can go by gut feel or what our fellow players say is an exploit (and given what some have said is an exploit, like crafting for conquest points, that's pretty shaky).

 

You said that you'll look harder at not letting things fester as long, and that's nice, but I'd like something more specific. Say, if something exists through more than (x) patches we can assume it's not an exploit (which is a commitment to fix punishable exploits within x patches).

[seafreeish]

Great work guys. Underlurker is still bugged to all hell. DP nim is unplayable since 3.0. Lag is worse than ever. Bulo's minecarts and load lifters are going after each other and the boss. Torque is a mess. Great to see you're putting your resources to good uses. Edited January 29, 2015 by seafreeish

[Eqor]

I think it's a bit ridiculous suspensions go before removal of gear. Getting 192/198 set bonus chest pieces on characters in return for a 1d ban is a trade I'd take for most of my characters, at least as long as my /roll's are as terrible as they've been lately.

Absolutely. I would take the one day ban to get 198 set bonus gear. Which is not a good enforcement of breaking the TOS. Eric, I would assume exploiters that got gear and were banned for a day will lose the gear?

[ped_i]

Fleet on Shadowland is sooo empty, and pvp queues not popping ... oh well.

[Pagy]

It breaks our hearts to see a few of those loyal players partake in the exploit.

breaks your heart?

 

you release a remarkably bugged, unplayable product we paid for and refuse to support it and resolve the issues in a timely manner INCLUDING this defect and your heart is broken?

 

glad this is over with, the community has been furious about this on all sides.