regarding punishment for exploit

[Andryah]

This.

 

the fact it took an entire month for even a single comment to be made by them, they are at fault for one.

 

The policy of most MMO companies is to NOT comment on exploits. Why? Because even passing acknowledgement of an exploit creates energy around the exploit and causes the curious to go check it out.

 

Should they fix exploits in a more timely manner? Mmmm... ideally yes.... but it depends on what it is, how hard it is to fix, and how prolific it is being exploited. They have the data to know all of this.. we do not.

 

Again.. it's their game. It's not up to us to second guess the timing of their work on an exploit. It is however up to us as players (per the ToS/EULA) to not take advantage of an exploit (under penalty of action if we do).

 

All this "cheater! cheater!... bad on Bioware to even allow it to happen!... but if they do.. don't penalize the players because you caused it!" nonsense is getting pretty absurd IMO.

 

Reality: They normally do not even allow threads like this to exist. So.. accept the fact that they are allowing limited discussion on it.. and don't take advantage of it IMO.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Andryah

[LyraineAlei]

I'll take that offer he has a nice voice... although who knows what's under that mask...

 

I have a few alts who would tap him regardless. They have a thing about accents and voices. Helps that one's a Miraluka.

 

Edit:Woah. Thread merge happened. Lotta pages.

Edited January 8, 2015 by LyraineAlei

[BuriDogshin]

This.

 

the fact it took an entire month for even a single comment to be made by them, they are at fault for one.

 

The related legal concept is the equitable defense of laches. If you know or should know that someone is violating your rights, and take no action for an undue period of time, laches may prevent you from successfully asserting those rights. Here the "rights" would be BioWare's contractual rights, under the ToS, to take action against parties to the contract who use an exploit.

 

However, laches does not require that the person whose rights were violated respond immediately. A 6-week delay in taking action might not support a laches defense, even assuming you could get a court to hear the case in the first place.

 

The above does not constitute legal advice.

[CaptMurphy]

I don't have time to read all 35 pages, but this is my .02 credits.

 

Considering the fact that Bioware pretty much screwed the preorder crew by offering free level training after the expansion officially went live, the random bugs that still exist since 3.0, the God awful ability delay that still hasn't been fixed and their overall lack of communication during the holidays (yes, I acknowledge the fact that there were a couple of Musco posts in that timeframe), I really don't blame the people who participated in the gear exploit.

 

I'm not saying I condone their actions (I personally did not take part in it), but at the same time, if Bioware is going to bend subscribers and the preorderers over with a pretty miserable response for over a month, I think their actions can be seen as justified. The bottom line is: A) It's a video game and B) It's PvE gear... who cares? I know I'm not going to complain the next time I'm in a HM flashpoint with an exploiter. Hell, I'd even welcome it... we may get through the thing a lot faster.

 

On the other hand, I do agree with the OP's point. Instead of punishing the exploit crew and risking a loss in customers, reward the ones who did not take part in it in some way. Whether or not those players knew about it is irrelevant.

 

This way everyone gets some sort of compensation for Bioware's lack of customer service over the past month.

[AMulls]

It trivializes the entire end game competition for this tier because people with less skill now have more gear, lowering their skill requirement to complete the Ops. No lasting harm, sure. Immediate harm? Yes. Banning them for a week or two levels the playing field and gives legitimate players a chance to catch back up.

 

And yes, max_killjoy, I know you don't understand or care about end game competition. No need to post it again.

 

Who are you competing against in HM Ops? I'm confused.

 

Catch back up to what? Gear levels? Again, I'm confused.

 

Another raid group or end game raider's gear has no effect on your group or gear. No matter how they got the gear. The only area of this game where the gear of one player can actually affect the game experience of another player is in PVP. That is actually competition. You know how I know? Because at the end of each WZ or Arena it say Win or Lose. I've been playing since launch and I've never seen Win or Lose appear at the end of any FP or OP I've done.

 

Not to mention, better gear doesn't change how bad or less skilled players handle FP and/or OP mechanics.

 

So, I ask again, who are you competing against?

[EarnestBunbury]

This exploit is a perfect scapegoat for Bioware to not own up to their mistakes, and the fact that they provided us with a half complete mess of an expansion for our hard earned money. Instead of acting though, they should publicly apologize to every subscriber, bowing so deep that they could kiss the ground. Its probably the biggest insult in gaming in 2014 after Ubisoft when they dookied the bad also.

 

The constant lag, the never ending game braking bugs, the current state of pvp... its blood boiling how none of the developers even acknowledge that theres a huge problem with this expansion. Ability delay... right, thats like the tip of the iceberg.

 

But when theres an exploit, they ride in on their trusty steeds like heroes... give me a break. I hope even more people do the exploit until they fix it, as a payment, to make amends how they screwed us over with 3.0. I cant even think of an instance or a part of the game, which is not bugged, borderline unplayable.

 

So how about get back to work, apologize that this exploit even exist, because frankly, its a perfect example of incompetent, lazy programing and it showcases the biggest problem of this game... the lack of testing by actual people who know what they are doing. I mean how can you explain bugs like the old NiM Content ones? All they had to do is play through the content ONCE to realize its bugged beyond hell... how can you let something slip trough?

 

But no, instead ban 70 percent of your gamer base, strip them down... insult and humiliate them even more. Can we start talking seriously please?

 

Here here!

[Bruceme]

Who are you competing against in HM Ops? I'm confused.

 

Catch back up to what? Gear levels? Again, I'm confused.

 

Another raid group or end game raider's gear has no effect on your group or gear. No matter how they got the gear. The only area of this game where the gear of one player can actually affect the game experience of another player is in PVP. That is actually competition. You know how I know? Because at the end of each WZ or Arena it say Win or Lose. I've been playing since launch and I've never seen Win or Lose appear at the end of any FP or OP I've done.

 

Not to mention, better gear doesn't change how bad or less skilled players handle FP and/or OP mechanics.

 

So, I ask again, who are you competing against?

 

been saying this for a long time, we compete against the makers of the game and ourselves.

[Quraswren]

So, when the "cheaters" aren't dealt with "harshly", we can count on you unsubscribing since there will be no reason for you to play in such an unfair environment, correct? Or do your principles only extend to actions others should take to keep your gaming environment "fair"?

 

Who said anything about unsubscribing and my principles extend to not playing with cheaters if at all possible.

 

I'll just make efforts to play with people that do not cheat and if BW does indeed do nothing and let exploiters and cheaters go free with no harsh punishment. Then yea, I'll have the option to stop my support to a game that allows such nonsense as letting cheaters get away with it. Nor would I plan to play a game that can't at least try to keep things somewhat on an even keel.

 

You cannot let those that willing cheat and exploit have any leeway when other individuals are involved.

 

No matter how bad BW dropped the ball, if you used the exploit, you knew better and should be punished for it and I have no problem with it being harshly. You can try and down play it by saying what does it hurt or it's no big deal but at the end of the day, you just can't let exploiters and cheaters get away with those actions.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Quraswren

[AMulls]

been saying this for a long time, we compete against the makers of the game and ourselves.

 

Exactly. So the actions of other players and how they choose to gear themselves (whether through comms, ops/fps, or exploits), has no effect on any individual's game play.

[euroDSMtuner]

If they get too ban hammer happy, booting at least 70% of their players that have done this, they are just *********** themselves over big time and will just speed up the death of this game. Edited January 8, 2015 by euroDSMtuner

[Foambreaker]

I agree with that idea.

Removing all the ill-gotten items is nigh impossible, they can't afford permabanning all the subs who exploited and just a 3-day ban won't really make too much a impact for players -- they'd need to ban players for at least a month to make a difference. While my server is not affected too much (less than 5% of level 60 players), I know other servers are hit much harder.

Handing out a free mount, pet, color crystal or something similar to any account who does not have the 16-man HM achievement on any legacy is a nice gesture and will set a better sign for exploiters than a temporary ban ever would.

 

lol, the subs are a rounding error in the big picture.

 

Talk about self inflated value

[Foambreaker]

If they get too ban hammer happy, booting at least 70% of their players that have done this, they are just *********** themselves over big time and will just speed up the death of this game.

 

I doubt 70% have even been to the location much less used the exploit.

 

This is just a version of "Everybody is doing it so it is ok".

Edited January 8, 2015 by Foambreaker

[XiamaraSimi]

I've spent about 15min sounding that word out in my head and I still can't quite get it...

 

 

I "heard" it as arr(piratespeak!)-guh-bar-gul

[TUXs]

I "heard" it as arr(piratespeak!)-guh-bar-gul

What?! That doesn't help...it just confuses me more now

[LadyVix]

If they get too ban hammer happy, booting at least 70% of their players that have done this, they are just *********** themselves over big time and will just speed up the death of this game.

 

Not necessarily.

 

I'd guess that lost revenue from banning exploiters is less than the cost of having to develop a new gear set to offset the damage from this fiasco. *IF* we were to see a 70% decrease in the number of raiders, what would happen? Bioware would now have more time before having to release new raid content. They could produce less raid material, saving them infinitely more than the lost revenue from a handful of exploiters who get banned and/or refuse to return. Bioware would set a precedent that this type of behavior, while going unpunished in the past, will NOT be tolerated in the future, saving them from dealing with this problem the next time an exploit is discovered.

 

Your $15 may seem like a lot to you, but it's chicken feed when compared to Bioware's potential long term savings.

[HiltoftheDragon]

This exploit is a perfect scapegoat for Bioware to not own up to their mistakes, and the fact that they provided us with a half complete mess of an expansion for our hard earned money. Instead of acting though, they should publicly apologize to every subscriber, bowing so deep that they could kiss the ground. Its probably the biggest insult in gaming in 2014 after Ubisoft when they dookied the bad also.

 

The constant lag, the never ending game braking bugs, the current state of pvp... its blood boiling how none of the developers even acknowledge that theres a huge problem with this expansion. Ability delay... right, thats like the tip of the iceberg.

 

But when theres an exploit, they ride in on their trusty steeds like heroes... give me a break. I hope even more people do the exploit until they fix it, as a payment, to make amends how they screwed us over with 3.0. I cant even think of an instance or a part of the game, which is not bugged, borderline unplayable.

 

So how about get back to work, apologize that this exploit even exist, because frankly, its a perfect example of incompetent, lazy programing and it showcases the biggest problem of this game... the lack of testing by actual people who know what they are doing. I mean how can you explain bugs like the old NiM Content ones? All they had to do is play through the content ONCE to realize its bugged beyond hell... how can you let something slip trough?

 

But no, instead ban 70 percent of your gamer base, strip them down... insult and humiliate them even more. Can we start talking seriously please?

 

This ^^^ ladies and gentlemen is the best post in this entire wasteland called a thread. The trusty steeds are now being followed by village peasants and forumites with their pitch forks and swing blades. I just wished everybody would just settle down and let the cards fall where they may. Nobody is going to be happy no matter what happens so why continue all the hostilities.

[TUXs]

Bioware would now have more time before having to release new raid content.

Yeah, because 18-months between Ops releases seems to really be straining them huh?

[Darth_Wicked]

Yeah, because 18-months between Ops releases seems to really be straining them huh?

 

Dread Fortress and Dread Palace were released in October, 2013.

 

The Ravagers and Temple of Sacrifice were released in December, 2014.

 

How is that eighteen months?

 

EDIT:

 

Not that fourteen months is acceptable either mind you.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Darth_Wicked

[TUXs]

Dread Fortress and Dread Palace were released in October, 2013.

 

The Ravagers and Temple of Sacrifice were released in December, 2014.

 

How is that eighteen months?

 

EDIT:

 

Not that fourteen months is acceptable either mind you.

I exaggerate

[DakotaDoc]

Woah epic thread merge.

 

I am glad we are all here to get this out of our systems. Now BIG GROUP HUG and lets go back to our lives again.

Wow?

[Zorvan]

I agree with that idea.

Handing out a free mount, pet, color crystal or something similar to any account who does not have the 16-man HM achievement on any legacy is a nice gesture and will set a better sign for exploiters than a temporary ban ever would.

 

Sounds good to me. I never do raids, and would never have that achievement even through the exploit, so it would truly be a freebie to me.

 

Plus, anyone who actually legitimately earned that achievement won't have my freebie either! I'll truly be special!

 

Please, feed me more. My entitlement needs more fuel!

Edited January 8, 2015 by Zorvan

[Darth_Wicked]

I exaggerate

 

* sad face *

On a more serious note, I had forgotten about it...

 

Seriously, fourteen months? I can only hope we never get to experience that again.

 

Edited January 8, 2015 by Darth_Wicked

[Infernixx]

Sounds good to me. I never do raids, and would never have that achievement even through the exploit, so it would truly be a freebie to me.

 

Plus, anyone who actually legitimately earned that achievement won't have my freebie either! I'll truly be special!

 

Please, feed me more. My entitlement needs more fuel!

 

While we're handing out stuff, can I get a mount for not using PVP exploits and cheat programs?

 

Oh, and another one for not win-trading?

Edited January 8, 2015 by Infernixx

[Zorvan]

While we're handing out stuff, can I get a mount for not using PVP exploits and cheat programs?

 

Oh, and another one for not win-trading?

 

I like the way you think, sir! Woot more freebies!

 

Seriously though, It'd eawesome if they'd give something like once a year to anyone who hasn't been found abusing any of the systems. Like maybe one random cartel item or something.

 

A "good behaviour" reward, as it were.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Zorvan

[Feargal]

Is this exploit that widespread or are the same people just doing it over and over again? I haven't, and the few folks I know in-game well enough to trust haven't. I have seen people throw around percentages as high as 70%, but I question the idea that most players have exploited. Obviously I have no proof either way.