Balance/Madness issue and Bioware said the goal is to balance all classes?

[Monterone]

i quit my sub today - tk/lightning is no alternative for me.

 

Yeah, I refuse to play Lightning/TK as well, and Madness is no longer any fun; the lack of single target damage is frustrating to keep playing with.

 

Same thing with my sins/shadows... I stopped playing them since Deception has lost a ton of burst, leaving the tree wanting. And I don't want to play Hatred.

 

So, it's either go to one of my many alts (most likely PT and Guardian) and make them my mains or quietly let myself lose interest and quit my sub as well.

 

Not what I expected with this patch, my two favorite trees I've been playing since beta are dead to me, and I refuse to play the two trees that everyone keeps crying about on the forums (Lightning/Hatred).

[TACeMossie]

BIOWARE TAKE NOTE: BURST COMES FROM INSTANT ABILITY PROCS NOT 1.5s casts that ONLY HIT FOR HALF OF A HIGH IMPACT BOLT.

 

Actually, burst comes from having an instant ability go off at the same time as a delayed ability.

 

e.g. Rail Shot hitting at the same time as Thermal Detonator, or in the case of Madness...

 

FORCE LEECH BEING FOLLOWED UP WITH A WRATH LIGHTNING STRIKE

 

Both abilities hit at the same time, causing a slight spike in damage. AKA Burst.

[ThatEvilDude]

Actually, burst comes from having an instant ability go off at the same time as a delayed ability.

 

e.g. Rail Shot hitting at the same time as Thermal Detonator, or in the case of Madness...

 

FORCE LEECH BEING FOLLOWED UP WITH A WRATH LIGHTNING STRIKE

 

Both abilities hit at the same time, causing a slight spike in damage. AKA Burst.

 

Valid. Excuse my poor definition. Just ranting at the crit I took from a HiB in a WZ earlier that hit me for 18k through PvP gear...

 

I frequently use the combo you mentioned above, it just doesn't feel like its doing anything.

[Galothor]

Well as squishy as we are and the heavy reliance on DoT damage and kiting does not really allow for us to stand still all the time to cast a Force Leech. We already have to stand still for quite some time to channel / spam our Force Lightning. Thus this ability needs to become instant.

 

As for the healing aspect:

Healing yourself for 32%-48% every 2.5 to 3mins is not really that powerful. Especially when you think about juggs who can do the same, while still dealing a whole lot of damage. Same goes for PTs. Sins can heal to full every 2 min and so can operatives. We have to sit put for 7 to 8 sec and even if we could move like other classes, we would still lack the burst and dps to deal the same amount of damage they do.

In addition we are also the squishiest class with our light armor and no other damage reduction. There are a lot of high hitting white attacks, the hit us for 13-18k while they only do something like 5-8k on other classes. That is 2 to 3 times more the damage other classes take. This sums up to quite a lot damage we take more than the other classes do over the course of a match.

And that is also the reason why we need decent self heal if we don't get any other damage mitigation. And this also justifies the heal on our barrier in addition to the arguements from above.

[stkan]

just nerf pvp (like self heal) and buff PVE

[ThatEvilDude]

just nerf pvp (like self heal) and buff PVE

 

Its not exactly that simple. There are plenty of us who play PvP as well as PvE on our Sages/Sorcs.

[DarthKurt]

Right now every sage/sorc are force to play TK/lighting spec I am a balance/madness fan always play it since EC HM so it make me feel bad that my favorite spec is broken.

 

I agree completely. I have played madness/balance since pre-order and I am REALLY disappointed how low this spec is parsing. It's sad. Honestly, I don't see mad/bal even being viable in pvp or raid groups anymore.

[MusicRider]

Balance/madness single target damage is so laughable now that it merely tickles a MM sniper while being hit for 15k ambushes; a matchup that was a piece of cake for sorcs.

[ThatEvilDude]

Balance/madness single target damage is so laughable now that it merely tickles a MM sniper while being hit for 15k ambushes; a matchup that was a piece of cake for sorcs.

 

Agreed its horrible. Not only are the parse numbers garbage, but the class doesn't even feel similar to how it did in previous patches. I'm not sure which is worse. I probably would have felt better about the class parsing like complete garbage if it at least felt the same as it did previously. Instead we got this crappy DoT spread, a new ability that must be part of our already immobile rotation that takes 1.5s to cast unless we take a utility that isn't all that helpful compared to the other utilities in the tree, and god like self healing instead of actual DPS. I feel like I'm playing the heal/DPS hybrid that existed pre-3.0 more than I am a DPS spec.

[Gramm]

I agree with a lot of the ideas thrown out here, Bioware if you do listen to us listen now. Madness is a laughing stock of pvp and pve. If you want to balance classes listen to these people who basically said everything I wanted to say. I'm a madness supporter, I DO NOT WANT TO PLAY LIGHTNING, I want madness and if I'm paying $15 a month since launch I think its only fair I get my spec that is at least good for what I do.

 

 

kai'serevin - level 60 Sorc, Jung Ma*

[Ycoga]

Balance gets HEALS in exchange for REDUCED DPS.

 

You really want to lose the heals and get DPS? No thanks.

[Gramm]

Balance gets HEALS in exchange for REDUCED DPS.

 

You really want to lose the heals and get DPS? No thanks.

Umm I don't want to play a dps spec to heal my self >.> if I wanted to get a lot of self heals I'd go to corruption.

[Galothor]

Umm I don't want to play a dps spec to heal my self >.> if I wanted to get a lot of self heals I'd go to corruption.

 

Plus the additional self-heal does not offset the lack of damage.And you still die faster than any other class if you don't have your 3min barrier ready.

[Gramm]

Plus the additional self-heal does not offset the lack of damage.And you still die faster than any other class if you don't have your 3min barrier ready.

 

Well said brother, I want to do damage and a lot of it, not AoE dot damage not tickling the enemy with FL I want to bash someone's face in from the inside out and shock the hell out of emm.

[CloudzDeven]

You really want to lose the heals and get DPS? No thanks.

As others have said there's a specific spec for healing. Also in a group there should usually be a healer anyway and the paltry amount of self heals you get through Madness won't even compare. Why should I be concerned about (poor) self-heals as a DPS in a group?

Well said brother, I want to do damage and a lot of it, not AoE dot damage not tickling the enemy with FL I want to bash someone's face in from the inside out and shock the hell out of emm.

I actually liked the dot spread. I just didn't like it at the cost of doing much less damage than other DPS specs. It did, mechanic wise, sort of bring lightning and madness closer together.

Edited January 22, 2015 by CloudzDeven

[Citruzz]

using lighting strike in madness results in a dps loss.

[Hichitsuki-hime]

Balance gets HEALS in exchange for REDUCED DPS.

 

You really want to lose the heals and get DPS? No thanks.

 

i'm sorry, but i have to ask - were you dropped on your head hard or something? as has already been said, if you want to heal yourself - BECOME A HEALER!!! Madness / Balance is a DPS spec. Even if we get some questionable self-heals, that is no reason to kill the DPS this much. As most of us, i'm a paying subscriber, so excuse me, but for the money and time i invest in playing the game, i want to play the spec i enjoy, not be forced to learn a different one that i'm not comfortable with.

BioWare, you guys have said that 3.0 was about balancing damage and classes. So far i've yet to see this balance i speak of.

[Brikinjamiel]

Not wanting to cause a huge fuss over this but here goes today i tested how well madness can do in single combat against a lightning spec opponnet of better gear than myself 192 vs 186 and took him down in 12 secs flat. Pve today battle of rishi took jos down to half health in a 2 minute span with a jug tank corruption sorc and a sniper agent vulk 1.5 mins torch 5min fight. PVP i am the number one targeted individual because of my dot stacks I must say I was a corruption sorc before 3.0 but seeing how madness has treated me i believe most of it comes down to (A.) gear (B.) skill. and i believe the same thing now about corruption and lightning.

[Galothor]

The fact that you were both wearing 192 and 186 repsectively suggests that neither of you is a real PvP player ... that would explain a lot. If you yourself in fact had PvP gear but used PvE gear out of fairness then this would also explain why you could win so easily - you had pvp experience the other one hadn't.

As for the PvE fights, you can easily simulate those with the dummies. And as countless parses have show: madness single target dps sucks.

[Azurestone]

I actually started this pre-season as a madness sorc, but when I saw the 6-pc set bonus I kind of realized devs had no madness in mind.

 

"Lightning strike reduce recklessness CD by 1 sec"

 

As a DoT spread class I hardly have the opportunity to spam more than 1 lightning strike before demolish comes on CD if I want to spread my DoTs far enough.

[JDotter]

I actually started this pre-season as a madness sorc, but when I saw the 6-pc set bonus I kind of realized devs had no madness in mind.

 

"Lightning strike reduce recklessness CD by 1 sec"

 

As a DoT spread class I hardly have the opportunity to spam more than 1 lightning strike before demolish comes on CD if I want to spread my DoTs far enough.

 

Almost positive the old assassin 4 piece + two new piece for sorcs is way to go.

 

Well for arenas the new 4/6 piece has little use

[ceazare]

Old stalker pvp 4pc doesn't work for sages anymore, does it work for sorcs? Edited January 27, 2015 by ceazare

[plokcoon]

i cancelled my subscription today. i dont want to play TK.

sad. i liked the game as a dot sage.

[TitusOfTides]

Chiming in really late on this one, but I have to say there is nothing wrong with Balance or Madness. They work just like they are supposed to - great for multiple targets and draining the life to be more survivable.

 

Even on single target, they have strong DPS - and gain that back in health simultaneously! Force Serenity does very comparable damage to Turbulence. With Weaken Mind running (just like TK) you get a boost to your damage, for 20%. That is close to the additional 30% you would get from Turbulence striking twice - which is only slightly higher in base DPS than Serenity. Turbulence does get an auto-crit, but if your crit rating is in the right spot on your character sheet you really are going to be getting crits on Serenity fairly often. When you weigh the fact that its slightly lower single target damage, but heals you for the exact amount it deals, I would say it is a fair trade-off.

 

In addition to this, you gain the mobility of a TK/Lightning user without necessarily having to grab Force Mobility. This really expands on the options you have, for either even MORE mobility or any of the other great Heroic utilities you by default (essentially) give up as the 'burst' spec - in order to gain the mobility you already have as a dot thrower!

 

Also, you have to look at damage types! Balance/Madness will bypass armor with most of the abilities, since they are Internal damage instead of kinetic. So, on some targets, you will even do MORE damage than a TK/Lightning user - and then gain back even more life. Partner that with even higher damage numbers (albeit over time) on some of the abilities, built in roots, mobility, AoE damage that does not get reduced by such utilities as "Nanotech Suit" (Force in Balance, sure, but the dots it spreads do not), and the above points you really have a strong spec (not to mention the names are super cool - Sever Force? Yes please!).

 

On the issue of not getting Recklessness/Force Potency back as quickly - who cares? Sure, 60% crit chance on 2 moves - that is somewhat of a big deal. However, it's one second you gain back from Disturbance/Lightning Strike. One second. If you are the type of person to argue that one second can make all of the difference in PvP, and that that ends the argument, you are not weighing the other factors properly.

 

On another note, I used 3.0 Balance from 30-60 (constant PvP) and use it a lot now as well - and still tend to get higher numbers than TK Sages - and healing numbers that get respectably close to some healers. You do similar DPS on average, gain more health, and ultimately gain more medals. In short, I have no sympathy for you if you feel "forced" to use TK - because you need to learn to think for yourself and stop believing everything people tell you.

Edited January 29, 2015 by TitusOfTides

[CloudzDeven]

SNIP

 

I'm not gonna go through every point you made. I will make a disclaimer than I only don't pvp that often, but I don't see how the venue would radically change the damage comparison.

 

What I will say is that hitting multiple targets is often a moot point since the most important fights are boss fights. If they have adds the ticks will rarely be on the long enough to make a difference since they die so quickly. Killing trash on the way is even less of a big deal than adds during a boss fight.

 

As it's been said multiple times the healing is negligible also. Healers should be parsing for 4.5-5k HPS. There's no way you're healing "respectably close" to that. Unless you have a screenshot to prove that or something.

 

Finally 30-60 (i'm guessing you're talking about pre-3.0?) Madness is different from 65 and anything not max level isn't really an indicator of the best a spec can do. We've got parses that compare TK to Balance and consistently (doesn't mean every single time, but overall) TK parses higher, ignoring armor or not.

 

The fact is that by mechanics alone Madness should be the higher parsing spec over time. What's actually occurring is that TK/Lightning is doing better for burst and over time. People feel "forced" because there's no competitive reason to play Madness over Lightning if the latter does more damage.

Edited January 29, 2015 by CloudzDeven