Training Costs are a Thing of the Past

[Heal-To-Full]

Lots of changes were made. As I mentioned, the engine likely doesn't support custom pricing of skills, so having to [re]buy a variable number of skills is just the way the system works.

I'm fairly sure it does. First of all, it's not a "MMO in a box", it's a proper professional engine. Second, BW has the source and coders that have modified it very significantly. Third, there's already plenty of "custom priced" skills like Speeders.

 

Generally an engine like this will have "skill" object entries that contain an array of ranks with their power levels and prices.

[Andryah]

To further along that point, who here has been given any right to judge who is a "loyal" customer or who is "more loyal" than anyone else subbing, or spending money, playing this game? We are all consumers here, presumably of equal statue under that term, and thusly all deserving of the same fair and equitable treatment by the company, wouldn't you agree?

 

Yeah.. these various agendas that one group of players is more loyal, more desering, yada yada is complete nonsense. Such insistence is the purest form of "entitlement", IMO.

 

Personally, I'm fine with what they decided to do here. No single solution will be perceived as equally fair to all players.... but anyone that claims free training for life for all characters from this week forward is not a great solution and gesture on Biowares part for the mistakes they made with retaining is just spouting lunacy as far as I am concerned. And I say that as someone to retrained 6 characters on launch day.

[LordArtemis]

I think scripting makes the proper adjustments. The script does and has modified the database entries. It's not my field of expertise, I deal with animation and meshes, but I am pretty sure that is the process that is being used based on what I have seen. Similar to what I have seen in the office.

 

The source of this information can not be mentioned here unfortunately, but I am sure most of you can guess which site I am speaking of.

[Andryah]

There are some absurd points hovering around right now.

 

Seems some folks are losing sight of one VERY important point.

 

You do not have to convince the forum community. It doesn't matter what kind of ridiculous arguments folks here come up with, pro or con...

 

...all that matters is if your request has merit. The folks you have to convince are NOT the folks you are arguing with in this thread.

 

If you wish to discuss the merits of pitfalls of this suggestion feel free, but remember that there is no need to lose control....because in the end it makes little difference.

 

The only one I have yet to see (and maybe I missed it somewhere in the forum) is the demand for a "rollback". Notice that nobody wants a rollback, which honestly is the only way to make the financial impact right for everyone. But I understand that a rollback means many early adopters of 56-60 would lose out on their efforts during access.

 

And NO.. I do not support or propose a rollback...ever. I am 100% against rollbacks in a modern MMO.

[LordArtemis]

The only one I have yet to see (and maybe I missed it somewhere in the forum) is the demand for a "rollback". Notice that nobody wants a rollback, which honestly is the only way to make the financial impact right for everyone. But I understand that a rollback means many early adopters of 56-60 would lose out on their efforts during access.

 

And NO.. I do not support or propose a rollback...ever. I am 100% against rollbacks in a modern MMO.

 

Yea, absolutely. I loath rollbacks personally. Had to suffer a few in my day. Not fun certainly.

 

Some of the others would be like (and this is paraphrasing mind you)

Asking for exorbitant amounts of compensation.

Asking for compensation for all amounts spent for the entire length of the game.

Asking for the decision to remove training costs to be repealed because it makes the game "too easy".

Pointing out that removing leveling costs will ruin the economy.

Contending that removing leveling costs will cause players to not know how to play their class (I think that post was removed because of forum violations)

Acting as if this was some kind of conspiracy to create a temporary massive credit sink for early adopters.

Making outrageous claims as to the cost of leveling.

 

Just a few of the silly ones that I witnessed.

Edited December 7, 2014 by LordArtemis

[Heal-To-Full]

I demand a rollback to 1.1.

[TravelersWay]

I demand a rollback to 1.1.

 

Oh snap!!

[Andryah]

I demand a rollback to 1.1.

 

LOL... well played.... and my life experience is now complete.

[Kaywinnit]

Having to pay a second time to train skills that had already been paid for obviously factors into the overall cost of training.

 

The point, is that they are two issues.. having to retrain is intended, and not changing (based on Eric's response).. having to spend 600k+ at level 60, is drastically different than having to spend 50k at 55.

[Tamanous]

Luckily I at least won't pay for 60 as will hold out until Tuesday but I wish I knew why Bioware wants so many cred sinks when so many already exist. Just to get a single piece a gear that is entirely cosmetic forces us to spend millions often. Those are the "fun" things to get yet take a great deal of time and effort to raise the creds for already.

 

As far as I am concerned (and this has existed in nearly every single since Wow especially) these sort of things only take away from the fun aspect of the game. Early Wow was all about being poor most of your playing career. I see no reason for it if money sinks are created for "horizontal" content which Swtor is doing quite well at so far (minus the many cash shop tie ins but we have to live with it).

 

Ths is a great change yet far too late imo. Anything not tied to economy should not break your bank.

[BAPACop]

having to retrain is intended

Whether or not it was intended is irrelevant; a bad decision does not become a good decision simply because it was made intentionally, and forcing people to spend in-game currency twice on the same thing is a bad decision. Both situations fall under this topic: "Training Costs are a Thing of the Past". Nowhere in the original post does it state that the point of this thread is focused on the period after level 55, so your attempts to limit this discussion to that specific section are baffling.

Edited December 8, 2014 by BAPACop

[FULONGAMER]

The point, is that they are two issues.. having to retrain is intended, and not changing (based on Eric's response).. having to spend 600k+ at level 60, is drastically different than having to spend 50k at 55.

Wrong again. It IS changing, to No training Costs 1-60 ever again ever for everyone. As of the Tuesday Street Release 3.0.1

Considering the results from my experience of taking the 1 character I DID waste the money on to level 59 thru the SoR expansion (without training) the credit "sink" scales appropriately. THAT was NEVER the problem.

 

WASTING my credits on retraining my 1-55 Skills IS the problem. I "get" that they meant for there to be re-train costs. I do not support that decision in the slightest and the vast majority of the Customer base concurs. THAT is what they failed to see the scope of. That and how borked up the Skill Conversion calculator was gonna be. If the conversion script had ACTUALLY worked as intended and everyone's "retrain" skills matched across mirrors, was limited to a very few singular skills, and did NOT entail repurchasing Every. Frelling. Rank. Of. Ranked. Abilities. Already. Paid. For. This would not have happened, and you would still have Class Training costs 1-60.

 

I do not PvP. I do not Ops group. I do not Raid. My VERY first 55s happened the DAY BEFORE the servers shut down to update (and another hit 54 in a cutscene as the servers shut down). You cannot tell me to "Go Farm Dailies" for creds as I can not DO dailies. As I have always been a PvE player in the PvE leveling world. and not an Endagame player wallowing in credits. (19 characters lvls 22-55)

 

To Wit: Because of player feedback rejecting the 3.0 Class Training Costs (as intended), Class training cost is being nullified as of 3.0.1 (or whatever they are calling the Public Access SoR street date release update.

 

Again, I never had a problem with Class Traioning Costs in and of themselves. Even the notion of 55-60 class training costs. What we refuse is being charged RE-TRAIN costs for our 1-55 skills that make us have playable characters currently as a deliberate planned intent by the Devs. Especially wildly unbalanced and illogical costs that do not even abide by their "as Intended" rules for imposing such costs.

[Icykill_]

Is that a serious suggestion? it seems to me those things are FAR to expensive to be considered a reasonable trade for the credits lost.

 

If you are truly serious, I will add it to the list.

 

Yes I am serious... Reason - Anyone who has multiple toons they LVL to 60 have already paid millions of credits to train... Hypercratess don't always drop good gear... Out of 24 crates you may get 2-4 items that will make you some credits straight away... Other items will never make credits or you have to hold onto them for months to get a good return... Obviously there are exceptions to that where someone gets a lot of good items... But that would only be a small percentage of people

Maybe 24 is too high... They could do 12 instead... But I was just simplifying it because they currently only have single crates or 24 packs

Personally I would prefer a direct refund of my credits spent, so I don't have to sell stuff... But they have said they won't do that

[LordArtemis]

Yes I am serious... Reason - Anyone who has multiple toons they LVL to 60 have already paid millions of credits to train... Hypercratess don't always drop good gear... Out of 24 crates you may get 2-4 items that will make you some credits straight away... Other items will never make credits or you have to hold onto them for months to get a good return... Obviously there are exceptions to that where someone gets a lot of good items... But that would only be a small percentage of people

Maybe 24 is too high... They could do 12 instead... But I was just simplifying it because they currently only have single crates or 24 packs

Personally I would prefer a direct refund of my credits spent, so I don't have to sell stuff... But they have said they won't do that

 

Ok then, I will add it to the list.

[LordArtemis]

Up to date list. One new suggestion added.

 

I would like to note that I do not explicitly support any of the suggested recompense, nor am I seeking it, though I would obviously welcome whatever Bioware decides.

 

I am personally satisfied with the decision to make all ability training free. That is more than enough for me.

 

This is what I have seen so far.

 

1) Full refund of all ability training that has been purchased since the start of Early Access (Dec 2nd)

2) 5 days of subscription time

3) 7 days of subscription time

4) One time stipend of 200CC

5) One time stipend of 500CC

6) A special mount or weapon

7) Return of 12XP, even if just for early access

8) Free legacy unlocks for a short period

9) Free legacy unlock for Field Respecialization

10) Reduction of mod extraction costs

11) Reduction of "death tax" in story mode flashpoints and operations

12) Addition of 3 more tabs to Legacy Storage, paid or unpaid

14) Additional speeder speed tier of 120%

15) Free Priority Transport terminal for Strongholds

16) A one time stipend of credits..50-70k for characters below 56, 500-600k for characters at 60

17) 50k per character awarded to all early access players

18) 24X hyperpack

 

If I have missed any, or need to add any new suggestions let me know. I will expand the list and repost it when needed.

[Hebruixe]

I want all my wasted credits refunded. You can surely calculate the exact number we spent on training. Why wouldn't you give it back to us?

[LordArtemis]

I would like to request that this thread get stickied so folks that log in to the forum in the next few days will spot it.

[Heat-Wave]

I would like to request that this thread get stickied so folks that log in to the forum in the next few days will spot it.

 

sure, or we just bump it like crazy

[eartharioch]

If I have missed any, or need to add any new suggestions let me know. I will expand the list and repost it when needed.

 

You missed the most commonly suggested option of DO NOTHING ELSE -- permanent removal of all training costs more than compensates for any "unfair" level 1-55 retraining costs. Most people appear to be satisfied with this solution -- those who aren't are suggesting the mostly pie-in-the-sky crack rock things for which they periodically beg with no justification.

 

I'd like the devs to spend some time fixing real bugs.

[LordArtemis]

You missed the most commonly suggested option of DO NOTHING ELSE -- permanent removal of all training costs more than compensates for any "unfair" level 1-55 retraining costs. Most people appear to be satisfied with this solution -- those who aren't are suggesting the mostly pie-in-the-sky crack rock things for which they periodically beg with no justification.

 

I'd like the devs to spend some time fixing real bugs.

 

Well, I am not sure that is the most commonly suggested option (though I think it would be if we heard from everyone on this), at least not in this thread.

 

And, it is actually already included in my preamble to the list. The list is a compilation of requested recompense that has been suggested in this thread. There would be no reason to add "do nothing" to that list.

[katugun]

Great news everyone!

Although... wait, its good only for those who does not have early access!

You know I feel betrayed, not only because this addon represents one big bug and we are just playing the role of beta-testers, but all people who made preorder earlier than everyone else appeared to have wasted uselessly millions of credit to trainers ! I dont feel any benefits from being a subscriber, or buying a preorder (never ever!!!)

Some people here say that "LOL stop complaining, thats just a virtual currency, not real money! etc"

Ok, but I have spent much REAL_TIME to earn them, you know!? + I do buy some cartel packs (for REAL MONYEY) and sell some items on GTN, so at some point these "virtual" credits are real too.

I can play 3-4 hours a day, so 1,6kk credits (YES, this is how much i've spent on my 2 chars, for just important skills) is a big sum for me.

I dont need that stupid Revan statue for the pre-order, I would like my credits back. I dont want to waste my real life time to farming dailies again again again and again to regain spent credits to become finally able to buy some "fun stuff" from GTN.

Edited December 8, 2014 by katugun

[Hotte]

I've thought long and hard whether to add my wall of text here, but I guess it can't hurt.

A bit about my situation first though, so it may be more understandable where I'm coming from.

 

I'm a subscriber, though I did take quite a long pause in the game due to content that simply didn't interest me. Dailies, Ops, HM Flashpoints...all not made for me. So I'm what you could call a super-casual gamer. Needless to say that I usually don't have more than 100k Cr on my toons at any given time. My main being a lvl55 merc at that time.

 

But I re-subbed, pre ordered, got early access and got to profit from the 12x XP event leading up to SoR.

I've watched the Dev streams on the new stuff as well, but seeing it in some Vid and experiencing it for yourself are different things. But eventually I managed my way through and surprise: I had to retrain skills which I did have previously already. I smelled something fishy there and quickly went here to check if it was a bug or intended.

Well, it was stated that it's intended and there's nothing odd about it.

Now I had two choices: swallow it and train up or wait and see.

I chose the latter option. Turns out I was lucky. But it was just that. Pure luck, I could have easily have to train up and pay up.

 

Now to get to the topic at hand, I have mixed feelings. For one, I am very happy that they decided to drop training costs all together. On the other hand, I can clearly understand and feel with those who have trained up, levelled up and had to pay an enormous amount of creds to get the skills for top level. I can also understand their desire for compensation, since hey...what were they going to do? At that time, remember, things were going "as intended" so there was no choice, really.

 

However, all that kept in mind:

I think, and that is my personal opinion, that some of those people expect too much.

I can't give names, and even if I could, I wouldn't but "demanding" something..well...I think no one here is in the position to "demand" anything.

 

Yes, the timing was bad...really bad. And in hindsight, things could have run a lot smoother for everyone. But that's it...hindsight. Of course now that we have all that's there, WE would have made things all better, were we in that position at the time, right? Of course we would have....or would we?

 

I'm no programmer, no coder, but I'm in the broader IT environment, as it were. So, making one decision affects a lot of other stuff, that much I know. I also know that a lot of stuff is in the background which we don't even see or hear about.

Now, I'm not saying don't be angry, disappointed ot miffed. But I'm also not saying you have every right to "demand" stuff. Because let's face it, we're all in the same boat here. As I said earlier, I got lucky. Others were not and I can appreciate that.

But my advice is to do what you think is best in your situation. Either run with it or, well...cancel your sub.

 

Either way, I think it's always bad form to insist on anything or to tell others what they "have to do" or "have to demand".

 

To come to an end in this..well....rather meaningless post :

Asking for compensation if you feel it's warranted = good

Demanding it = bad

Telling others they have no clue or to shut it if they don't share your opinion = even worse.

[Avatarless]

I literally just cancelled my sub over this issue because I didn't think I was going to be able to afford to train all the skills up to 60 after already spending about 200k to get skills back that I already had before.

 

I blew most of my credits during the 12x XP craziness just on keeping my gear at an acceptable level.

 

Besides being a bad introduction to the expansion it's also an antiquated system as no other mainstream MMO had costs this ridiculous, if they even have costs at all, which most don't.

 

So yes, very good decision.

Edited December 8, 2014 by Avatarless

[Halinalle]

Besides being a bad introduction to the expansion it's also an antiquated system as no other mainstream MMO had costs this ridiculous, if they even have costs at all, which most don't.

 

For example Amarr Titan skillbook costs 5,5 billion ISK in EVE and that's non-trade hub price.

 

They just move the credit sink somewhere else. Or they reduce rewards. Training costs have been intentional from the start.

Edited December 8, 2014 by Halinalle

[BlownSi]

I am pretty irritated about the timing of this decision. I know for myself that I had two characters to 60 before this announcement was made. So that puts me at over 1.5 million credits spent on ability training. It is really terrible customer service and I hope they will come up with something to compensate those dedicated fans that bought into the pre-order. I won't even get started on all the bugs.

 

That said, I have enjoyed the content and overall class and discipline changes greatly, and I applaud BW for the direction and ideas. But this will be the last time I pre-order anything for this game. I will not pay to be a beta tester