I just love how all those unfairly treated people keep forgetting that. In addition, that 12x XP event had no training costs either. So, yeah...pre-order was a total scam. Hrmpf.

Got to quote myself here. Yes, I did say that he wasnt forced to buy cartel packs for real money, therefore the request for a refund for this Special case seems a little far fetched in my opinion. Sorry for the confusion, it's early where I'm at.

Great way to twist my words or rather give them a meaning that was never there. I never said whether he deserves or doesn't deserve a refund. I merely stated that that particular situation where he bought cartel packs to make credits with them is a very special way to do things.

Hmm....were you forced by anyone to spend real money for cartel packs in order to sell stuff on the GTN in order to have money for training? If not, then you did so by your own choice. I can't see any obligation for anyone to refund you for your choice. If I misunderstood your argumentation, please lt me know, but I guess the situation you describes is a particularly special one.

Nope, you aren't

I for one have just done one story quest and that was as far away from a closed story than....a refund. SCNR That particular story mission left me hanging wanting MORE...more more, yes please give us more story quests. Worst season finale cliffhanger ever. So yes, I fully support "SW:TOR Episode 4: The Return of the Story"

First, let me apologize for seeming like I want to win something here. I don't. I honestly can't care less about a refund or if I get it or don't. However I just want to understand some things. Or clarify. Or well....just bring back into minds. Apologies again for making it seem that you specifically said "make it happen". You didn't and I didn't want to blame you for anything of the sort. Still, I want to ask, or remind, that everyone, regardless of preorder or not, subscriber or not had to train new or updated skills. With that in mind, seeing that we all benefit from the scrapping of training costs, don't you think that is enough? In the long run? Yes, and I've mentioned that in another thread before, the way they handled things were not the best, especially with the timing considered. And yes I also acknowledge that for quite a lot of players that hurt hard, given the amounts that we are talking about. But what is enough to say "OK, I've gotten what I wanted, all is forgiven. Until the next screw-up."? And isn't it understandable that the devs are reluctant to open the pandora's box? Whatever will happen, it will set a precedent, one that could very well come back to bite BW in the backside. So if nothing else happens and things go unchanged from here on out, I can see why. I may not like it, but I can understand it.

You do realize that the only difference between early access and no early access is the date when the purchase was made, don't you? I'm not argueing that early access made it happen that you had the Chance to Level up and had to Train those abilities. That is not in question here. I'm asking you what exactly makes you more dedicated than someone else who just missed the day to pre-order in time to get early access. Can't be the price of the expac. So, what exactly is it that makes you feel more dedicated than Fred Casual who didn't preorder in time but has never missed a single day of subscription since launch?

So, if I get you correctly, you are saying that you bought the expac earlier than others, had to train and therefore have a higher claim to a refund than, let's say Fred Casual, who got the expac on Dec 1st. Am I close in that assumption? If so, I have bad news, because everyone and their dog had to train up as soon as the new disciplin system hit on Dec, 2nd, regardless of early acces. So...what makes your claim to be refunded better than Fred Casual's over there? Is it the amount of credits spent? How many did you spend? Did you level up more than one character to 60? Or, just for argument's sake, let's say we all get a compensation. Fine, I'm early access...I had training costs of roughly 80k credits. I don't have a single toon up to 60. Now, that's just me, but how much am I supposed to get? How much is Fred Casual supposed to get if he just has 3 toons, the highest being 45, buzt all 3 had to retrain. Now, let's further assume that (again, just numbers out of my butt) roughly 700.000 Players had to retrain and train up in one form or another. How do you propose to compensate every single one of them in a fair and equal manner? If your answer now is "I don't know" then that's the right answer. If you add to that "let the devs figure that out" then that addition is wrong. Why? Because I want to see you develop the script for that. It's for sure possible. but how Long will that take and how much "dev-power" will be stripped for that which could be used for more pressing matters like....I don't know, the Revan fight? Boss loot? Disappearing stronghold stuff? So you see..it isn't as simple as "I want refund, make it happen".

An excellent question. One I'm eagerly awaiting the answer to although I'm pretty sure I know it already

Nothing is forcing them either. Again, let me state that I'd welcome a refund...but I'm neither counting on it, nor by any means demanding one. Why? Because I think that dropping training costs completely by far covers the costs that I had. Of course if I look backwards and all I see is stuff or training that I already paid for, yes...then I'd deserve..erm....nothing as well. But that's just me, it seems.

Fair enough. But then...who is the competitor in our little scenario? Is it the skill Trainer on Rishi or the one on the fleet? Sorry, if I am sarcastic here but it just proves my point that we can't simply compare this Situation here with the real life stores "out there". BW sits on the monopoly in their game here and they determine the rules of their world. as I said, a refund would be grand, no questions there but it also opens a whole new can of worms.

I guess what many people are forgetting is that this here isn't the free market out there. I'm from Germany, so I admit freely that I don't know, but is it really in the US constitution (or any law) that when some other store has something cheaper, the other *has* to refund the difference? I'd guess not. So that would make that practice purely voluntarily on the refunding party, right? So, with that in mind, if BW chooses to refund, fine, if not...well..I can't see an obligation to do so. It'd be a great gesture, yes. But then we'd have the question of who gets refunds and what should those be exactly? In the other (Training costs are a thing of the past) thread, there are numerous ideas floating around...but I am willing to bet: As soon as one particular method of refund is chosen, numerous other people would complain and demand THEIR form of refund. So, whatever BW does from now on, unless they don't refund at all, they can't please the masses. They simply can't.

I've thought long and hard whether to add my wall of text here, but I guess it can't hurt. A bit about my situation first though, so it may be more understandable where I'm coming from. I'm a subscriber, though I did take quite a long pause in the game due to content that simply didn't interest me. Dailies, Ops, HM Flashpoints...all not made for me. So I'm what you could call a super-casual gamer. Needless to say that I usually don't have more than 100k Cr on my toons at any given time. My main being a lvl55 merc at that time. But I re-subbed, pre ordered, got early access and got to profit from the 12x XP event leading up to SoR. I've watched the Dev streams on the new stuff as well, but seeing it in some Vid and experiencing it for yourself are different things. But eventually I managed my way through and surprise: I had to retrain skills which I did have previously already. I smelled something fishy there and quickly went here to check if it was a bug or intended. Well, it was stated that it's intended and there's nothing odd about it. Now I had two choices: swallow it and train up or wait and see. I chose the latter option. Turns out I was lucky. But it was just that. Pure luck, I could have easily have to train up and pay up. Now to get to the topic at hand, I have mixed feelings. For one, I am very happy that they decided to drop training costs all together. On the other hand, I can clearly understand and feel with those who have trained up, levelled up and had to pay an enormous amount of creds to get the skills for top level. I can also understand their desire for compensation, since hey...what were they going to do? At that time, remember, things were going "as intended" so there was no choice, really. However, all that kept in mind: I think, and that is my personal opinion, that some of those people expect too much. I can't give names, and even if I could, I wouldn't but "demanding" something..well...I think no one here is in the position to "demand" anything. Yes, the timing was bad...really bad. And in hindsight, things could have run a lot smoother for everyone. But that's it...hindsight. Of course now that we have all that's there, WE would have made things all better, were we in that position at the time, right? Of course we would have....or would we? I'm no programmer, no coder, but I'm in the broader IT environment, as it were. So, making one decision affects a lot of other stuff, that much I know. I also know that a lot of stuff is in the background which we don't even see or hear about. Now, I'm not saying don't be angry, disappointed ot miffed. But I'm also not saying you have every right to "demand" stuff. Because let's face it, we're all in the same boat here. As I said earlier, I got lucky. Others were not and I can appreciate that. But my advice is to do what you think is best in your situation. Either run with it or, well...cancel your sub. Either way, I think it's always bad form to insist on anything or to tell others what they "have to do" or "have to demand". To come to an end in this..well....rather meaningless post : Asking for compensation if you feel it's warranted = good Demanding it = bad Telling others they have no clue or to shut it if they don't share your opinion = even worse.

Good morning, I've got the same odd problem. Also got an ATI card, no overclocking, no overheating. Problem started right after 1.2 and has definitely something to do with AA.