Bekkal Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 Wow, who would have thought people would be so against flexibility. Dunno some seem like legit arguments, part of a vibe I'm getting is people don't want to lose there "sure shot" case they picked healer/Tank. In the end Dual spec add life to the game and get the ball rolling when it needed, but in the end it not us to put it in or disallow it. It is Biowares. And if they feel it needed they will add it. WoW still has multi-speccing, and healers and tanks still get groups in seconds. No one loses with dual spec, and everyone benefits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajikMyst Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 When I quit Rift, you literally could not roll Need unless you had queued for an instance as a spec that was "unlocked" for the item in question. In what way does that not resolve the issue? Any cross-server LFD tool will have members queue as a role, thus locking them into set item availability. In a same-server system like we have here, the problem resolves itself, as I made very clear. Edit: Confused WoW with Rift for some reason. It never went into stats on the gear.. If you were a clothy you couldn't roll on plate.. If you were a dps priest.. You could still roll on cloth healing gear.. Warriors, Paladins, and DK's all had to fight over tanking plate.. Because they all could roll on it.. So it was still an issue.. We already have an LFG system in the game, but nobody wants to use it.. Kinda like the target of target that nobody seems to know is there.. You can mark yourself as LFG and then anyonen puttijng a group together can look and see who is available and ask them.. Nobody does that though.. They spam general.. Which I fine I guess.. I just don't want the WOW version where people from other servers are brought in.. That is where the problem lies.. People in groups from other servers tend to act like jerks and need on anything they can.. Even if they are wearing it.. Since everything here is pretty much BOE.. That can be very profitable.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaarnus Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 2. People already roll on gear for their companions in SWTOR Has never happened in my experience. And the developers should be able to rely on human beings with braincells to sort out this sort of thing in the group as it happens. 3. ACs use the same armor type (and largely the same gear as a whole, except for tanks) so even when they add dual-spec people will still be limited in what gear they have to alt-spec roll for At 50 when your grouped in your guild - they will know who will benefit the most from gear and who won't, it promotes community by ensuring people join guild to help people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varghjerta Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 Maybe just allowing a dual spec for PvP would satisfy both sides of this argument. PvP really is totally different from PvE spec and you can see it in the trees. Some abilities are better for PvP and some for PvE. Why should I have to build my character for one and gimp the other? Let us have a second spec that can only be activated in the PVP warzones and I would be happy. Oh, I should correct that. I'm happy now. A PvP dual spec would make me happier, but it's Bioware's game so whatever they do, I'm not going anywhere. Sorry people have already suggested that but have gotten shot down . Basicly peeople want it from lv 1 with no cost attached to it and if bioware add it it probably will come with a hefty cost but then the same people will complain over that. There are absolutley no reason at all to have Dual Specc PvE Wise thanks to both healers and tanks are viable soloing and killing mobs and doing quests. If people want Dual Specc for Pve they are just dont want to spend any credits and usually they put on the crown of the martyr that they do the server a favour............... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bekkal Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 (edited) It never went into stats on the gear.. If you were a clothy you couldn't roll on plate.. If you were a dps priest.. You could still roll on cloth healing gear.. Warriors, Paladins, and DK's all had to fight over tanking plate.. Because they all could roll on it.. So it was still an issue.. We already have an LFG system in the game, but nobody wants to use it.. Kinda like the target of target that nobody seems to know is there.. You can mark yourself as LFG and then anyonen puttijng a group together can look and see who is available and ask them.. Nobody does that though.. They spam general.. Which I fine I guess.. I just don't want the WOW version where people from other servers are brought in.. That is where the problem lies.. People in groups from other servers tend to act like jerks and need on anything they can.. Even if they are wearing it.. Since everything here is pretty much BOE.. That can be very profitable.. If you look, you'll note that I have stressed how against cross-server LFG I am in many different posts in this thread. It is historically proven that isolated servers police themselves well. Sorry people have already suggested that but have gotten shot down . Basicly peeople want it from lv 1 with no cost attached to it and if bioware add it it probably will come with a hefty cost but then the same people will complain over that. There are absolutley no reason at all to have Dual Specc PvE Wise thanks to both healers and tanks are viable soloing and killing mobs and doing quests. If people want Dual Specc for Pve they are just dont want to spend any credits and usually they put on the crown of the martyr that they do the server a favour............... Though I primarily want Dual Spec so I can switch between PVP and PVE specs, I would love to be able to make both specs PVE via the pay-to-respec system currently in place so that I have greater flexibility. If you think healers are just as viable when soloing as dps, I suggest you roll a healing agent and see how slow it is to complete a bonus quest when your only companion until 30+ is a ranged tank. Edited December 28, 2011 by Bekkal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VettoRyo Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 WoW still has multi-speccing, and healers and tanks still get groups in seconds. No one loses with dual spec, and everyone benefits. Oh don't get me wrong I am 100% for Dual spec, me and my friend have argument case I don't want to budge on forking over the cash to be a Healer ((Nor do I really want to level as a healer)) So he can have a pocket medic for his tank. So Dual spec make us both GREATLY happy. But some people use the "Oh you are just to use to WoW and need to get lost" as an argument, well for me that hold little water, so who care if WoW did it, it a good idea, and throwing off anything just case it from another MMO that they may dislike is just pure madness. A good idea good idea It could have come from pokemon for all I care if it helps the game I am for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ledra Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 I've leveled both a healer char and tanking character just fine when soloing. That is what you use your companions for. I dont really get this. That's why they are there. I dont think we should have duel specs not yet atleast and give their version of this a chance before nuking it down. I myself prefer it this way. My assassin takes little damage when soling and deals a solid amount still. And my dps companions do more then enough to compensate. I am playing a tank after all so ofc my damage output over a certain time frame is gonna be less. But yet again I take less as well. About the dungeon finder, I wouldnt like it implemented. It was in wow ofc but that was years after release to help people that rolled new chars get into groups and experience the dungeons they put time and effort in. At endgame it was tragic with the ques etc. People saying dungeon finder will solve 'Spending too much time spamming channels' seems to forget the 50+ min que's for dps usually. And for those that say 'We dont want it cross over servers' seems to forget that is the next thing you are gonna ask to have implemented that will 'solve the long que' which ofc it wont and we are back at square one again. But now with a tool like that for casual players wont have the same need to make friends, join guilds etc. Which is imo a bad thing because those things are kind of important to a MMO atleast for me. Example for dungeon finder : You log on. One mate is online. Both dps. You ask if you wanna do the daily together? He says no because he doesnt want to lose his spot in the que for he logged on 10 min before you and que'd. SO you have friends, you just dont play with them. Back to sluggish pugs etc. So no thanks mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeDawg Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 PLEASE DONT ADD DUAL SPECCING "Choices Matter" is important. The only legitimate argument I see in any form of dual spec is in PvE vs. PvP. For the record, I'm talking skill tree points, not AC's. Choices matter can be maintained by making a spec for PvP that's only usable in warzones (automatically loaded) and has to be changed the same way as the main one (skill mentor). Even make it cost just as much to change it as the PvE one. My build for PvP would be about 20% different than my PvE one, but the same generaly idea - as there are a small handful of things that would gimp my tanking in flashpoints that I couldn't care less about in PvP and would gladly grab a bit more mobility / CC. I'm surprised this view doesn't have more support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerrusPA Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 After playing a Bodyguard Merc to 30 I have to agree with the idea of dual specs. It's painful to say the least, especially once you hit Alderaan. (It being a crappy planet in general doesn't help.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajikMyst Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 1. You can only need roll on your armor type in WoW 2. People already roll on gear for their companions in SWTOR 3. ACs use the same armor type (and largely the same gear as a whole, except for tanks) so even when they add dual-spec people will still be limited in what gear they have to alt-spec roll for Yes.. I know.. How many plate tanks are their?? Warriors, Paladins, andf DK... It is still an issue.. Sorry.. Yes that is true.. That is an issue that needs to be addressed.. In the beta we asked for a beta need option and didn't get it.. At least not yet.. Actuall that is not totaly true.. At least not for Sith warriors and Jedi Knights.. Sentinels use medium armor, Guardians use heavy.. There really is no need for dual speccing in this game.. The change spec option we have now was means as a means to allow people to find the spec they like that suited them.. Not as a means to spec constantly.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kemosobe Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 WHY does it always go back to the 'it's in WoW so that must be why you want it' argument? Have you read ANY of my other posts? I don't really care if it's in WoW or not. Fact is that the games dual-spec has been in have benefited from the inclusion of this considerably, largely in terms of increased availability of healers and tanks. I have yet to see a reasonable argument against dual-speccing that does not involve some sort of 'I want to feel special' point. You are not a unique snowflake and just because you roll a tank or healer you are not entitled to anything special. FYI, my main is a BH tank and I do my job quite well. I like the idea of dual-speccing because it would afford me more opportunities to play DPS There have also been no real reasons given as to why they should put it in. I also love how you apparently don't even read anything I write. You are just picking out something that you can take out of context and make it look like I am saying somethign completely different. You have either said or defending people who say that a dual spec needs to be put in simply because it is "standard" practice for MMOs and I have told you twice now that there is no "standard" for an MMO except for the fact that it is hudreds of thousands of people all playing together in a persistent world. As for your last sentence about wanting to play a DPS even though you are specced tank, I have something very easy for you to do and I think you can understand it. Create another character. There is no reason for dual spec to be implemented except for the fact that you just don't want to have to work as hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sithmud Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 Roll a tank and then a healer? Seems simple to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VettoRyo Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 About the dungeon finder, I wouldnt like it implemented. It was in wow ofc but that was years after release to help people that rolled new chars get into groups and experience the dungeons they put time and effort in. At endgame it was tragic with the ques etc. People saying dungeon finder will solve 'Spending too much time spamming channels' seems to forget the 50+ min que's for dps usually. And for those that say 'We dont want it cross over servers' seems to forget that is the next thing you are gonna ask to have implemented that will 'solve the long que' which ofc it wont and we are back at square one again. But now with a tool like that for casual players wont have the same need to make friends, join guilds etc. Which is imo a bad thing because those things are kind of important to a MMO atleast for me. Example for dungeon finder : You log on. One mate is online. Both dps. You ask if you wanna do the daily together? He says no because he doesnt want to lose his spot in the que for he logged on 10 min before you and que'd. SO you have friends, you just dont play with them. Back to sluggish pugs etc. So no thanks mate. My counter argument is fairly simple but to the point about The DF: Which is simple as this, I'd rather tell my friend to wait or go do a few quest while I finish up then sit in front of a dungeon spamming General for an hour for 1 damn healer or tank. That waste BOTH of our time vs just one. ((And he can still do stuff while I was in Que like craft or dailies)). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bekkal Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 There really is no need for dual speccing in this game.. The change spec option we have now was means as a means to allow people to find the spec they like that suited them.. Not as a means to spec constantly.. There is no need for it to not be in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerrusPA Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 PLEASE DONT ADD DUAL SPECCING "Choices Matter" is important. In that case remove the DPS trees from obvious tanks or healers. It angers me to see Juggernauts speccing into damage, then complaining about lack of tanks. Go all the way back to classic Everquest with one role per class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basiliscus Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 There is no reason for dual spec to be implemented except for the fact that you just don't want to have to work as hard. isnt it always better to work smarter, not harder also there have been reasons given, just nothing you agree with, likewise there have been no reasons for excluding it that I agree with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demonix Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 Dual spec, LFD, do you want a Panda with that order sir? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kemosobe Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 isnt it always better to work smarter, not harder also there have been reasons given, just nothing you agree with, likewise there have been no reasons for excluding it that I agree with. There is a difference between working smarter and just being plain lazy though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ledra Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 My counter argument is fairly simple but to the point about The DF: Which is simple as this, I'd rather tell my friend to wait or go do a few quest while I finish up then sit in front of a dungeon spamming General for an hour for 1 damn healer or tank. That waste BOTH of our time vs just one. ((And he can still do stuff while I was in Que like craft or dailies)). Well that can be used both ways. Why do you need a dungeon finder if you can just wait for the rest of your friends / guildies to log on and go do it together? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajikMyst Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 (edited) WoW still has multi-speccing, and healers and tanks still get groups in seconds. No one loses with dual spec, and everyone benefits. Again.. Not true.. A lot of poeple that don't have healers and tanks lose.. I had a heck of a time getting agroup on my lock.. I had no trouble at all getting a group on my pally.. So yes... People do miss out.. The dps only classes will suffer in this game if dual speccing is allowed.. People will want to take the people that can fill two rolls.. Just in case you need an extra tank or healer.. Since there currently is nothing that makes a Sentinel stand out from the rest.. Why bother taking him.. He is just a mele DPS.. No utility that nobody else has.. Does about the same damage as everyone else.. Who would you rather bring.. A guardian that is dps but can be a tank, a sage that is DPS but can be a healer, or a Sentinel that is just DPS?? As a raid leader myself and comming from WOW.. I can answer that questing with little thought.. The Sentinel isn't going.. If there wasn't dual speccing.. Then the DPS Guardian, Sentinel, and Sage are all the same.. They are DPS.. So yes.. There is a difference.. Edited December 28, 2011 by MajikMyst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajikMyst Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 There is no need for it to not be in the game. No need for what?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazikeen Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 Wow, who would have thought people would be so against flexibility. Dunno some seem like legit arguments, part of a vibe I'm getting is people don't want to lose there "sure shot" case they picked healer/Tank. In the end Dual spec add life to the game and get the ball rolling when it needed, but in the end it not us to put it in or disallow it. It is Biowares. And if they feel it needed they will add it. This is exactly it. They want that 'I leveled as a tank/healer so I'm better than you' or 'you NEED me so better listen to me or I'll quit your group and you can't swap specs to replace me'. It's B.S. I am a tank. I know how tanks can be. I know how healers can be. Many will act like they're some sort of god to be worshiped by the rest of the group. You take that away and their epeens shrink Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bekkal Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 There is a difference between working smarter and just being plain lazy though There is nothing lazy about enjoying pvp as a certain spec, and enjoying pvp queues as you quest/explore pve content. Unless somehow you think enjoying pve as one spec and pvp as another is "lazy". If so: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lazy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malvorno Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 I think I should not be restricted by AC's If my group is looking for a Jedi Sage healer, and I'm an operative DPS, I should be able to press a button and switch. This would solve several problems in the game imo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VettoRyo Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 Well that can be used both ways. Why do you need a dungeon finder if you can just wait for the rest of your friends / guildies to log on and go do it together? Can't demand a friends to all way log in when you want to do stuff that selfish. Most guilds get sick of doing the same dungeon for lowbies specially when more people start to cap out no one want to go back and redo old pointless stuff then you are wasting their time. I was in WoW since it started the DF was a god send, case when people cap out it gets EVEN HARDER to get group for lower level stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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