Tips to get ready for NiM ops?

[mynameisbugged]

Hi all,

 

My raid group has recently downed Council and Brontes about 3 weeks ago, and have been farming them since. Since I couldn't find much info about NiM tips, was wondering if experienced people here would be able to post any general tips to get ready? Currently my raid group is as follows:

 

Tanks:

Guardian

Shadow

 

DPS(with approximate dummy parses):

Sentinel (3700)

Sentinel(3500)

Sage(3300)

Commando(3000)

 

Heal:

Commando

Scoundrel

 

Was wondering if this setup is ok? In terms of gear, we are still not fully BiS, but we almost there.

[invertioN]

Was wondering if this setup is ok? In terms of gear, we are still not fully BiS, but we almost there.

 

Yes it's ok, go do NiM and everyone will improve with time. Practice is good.

Edited September 22, 2014 by invertioN

[Levram]

Congratulations on your team moving into the current nightmare content! We're a small community and it's always nice to have new players joining our ranks.

 

General Notes on Nightmare Dread Palace and Fortress

 

1) Understanding and properly executing fight mechanics is absolutely fundamental to clearing the content.

 

Every member of your team is 100% personally responsible for whether or not a clear happens. You'll find the move from hard mode to nightmare mode is going to place a lot more responsibility on the shoulders of every member of the team. Whereas a hard mode clear might have been reliant on the tanks being rock solid and the healers keeping people up, the nightmare clear will be asking your DPS and healers to be responsible for perfectly executing new mechanics that only they can be responsible for.

 

For example, when hard mode groups ask me if I think their team is ready for nightmare Dread Fortress and Palace, the question I ask is, "To clear nightmare Draxus every member of the team will be asked to individually perform 15 to 20 unique tasks in the correct sequence, perfectly, to clear the fight. That's 120-160 things that collectively need to go right over seven minutes. Is every one of your team members capable of doing that?"

 

2) Nightmare Power being turned off has only resulted in the healing being easier. The key DPS checks are as strict as they were the day the nightmare operations were released. You need top-flight DPS on your team to clear most fights.

 

A nightmare DPS check feels different than a hard mode DPS check. They will push you to the limits of what Classes are capable of. For example, where in hard mode you can get by with "very good" DPS, for certain nightmare fights all four of your DPS need to be performing at "superior" levels. What is "superior" DPS? From my experience running with nightmare clearing DPS in random Fleet PUG runs of story mode and hard mode content where the PUGs were also in Parsec, the nightmare DPS players consistently beat the PUG DPS by 1,000-1,400 DPS in a given fight. I'm trying to say that your DPS members should be head-and-shoulders above other players. They should (ideally) be examples of how their chosen Class should be played.

 

Your Team Composition

 

A) The snap-threat (i.e. first three Globals) that your Guardian tank can generate is lower than the Shadow tank. You'll need to consider how and when you deploy each tank in your strategies so that you can best take advantage of their strengths.

 

B) Double Marauders isn't really "helping" you in any way. Two melee is fine, but I would prefer to see them be different classes so that they can bring additional utility to the table. A Shadow or Vanguard DPS would bring an off-taunt, which can be deployed in surprisingly useful ways. Shadows can also bring stealth rezes, Resilience to cheese damage and Phase Walks. Vanguards have heavy armor, Hold The Line and are quite effective in the 4-10 meter range.

 

However, I do note that the Marauders are both your top DPS members, so I wouldn't worry about swapping them onto other classes until you find that you're actually having a problem.

 

Your healing composition is what I consider to be the best for nightmare 8-man content.

 

Not being 100% BiS gear shouldn't be a big issue. Player skill is more important than a few missing stats. The only way you get to find out if BiS gear is going to be important is to start working on nightmare content and see where you get stuck.

 

Best of luck in the future!

[Lacedemon]

Best tip I can offer is at the start when your learning a fight, do not worry too much about DPS or enrage timers or parsec or w/e. Only myself and my co-tank tend to run parsec in progression and that's just to see what is going on damage wise. Meters while extremely useful can be a distraction in progression so be careful with using them.

 

Focus on execution, learning the fights and learning what you can do to minimize raid damage. If you get those down the damage will follow.

Edited September 22, 2014 by Lacedemon

[TACeMossie]

From my experience running with nightmare clearing DPS in random Fleet PUG runs of story mode and hard mode content where the PUGs were also in Parsec, the nightmare DPS players consistently beat the PUG DPS by 1,000-1,400 DPS in a given fight.

 

For reference here, my raid is currently sc****** (edit - LOL S-C-R-A-P-I-N-G is censored because it has R-a-p-i-n-g in it) through Bestia because our DoTs are killing her on the hard enrage, and we're all averaging ~3k dps in that fight (between 2600 and 3400).

 

But when I pugged SM Dread Palace the other day, I was on Kite duty for Raptus during the council fight. The final burn phase started when Raptus hit 15%, with Bestia still on 21%.

 

I was the only one on Raptus. Everyone else was hard burning Bestia.

 

Keep that in mind when getting ready for Nightmare mode, because its gonna be really, really painful.

 

This is Bestia though, Everything else should be fine (though we haven't tried our hand at Brontes since DP NiM came out. But that was an issue of me running at the wrong droid 50% of the time that stopped us killing her)

Edited September 22, 2014 by TACeMossie

[AAAAzrael]

(though we haven't tried our hand at Brontes since DP NiM came out. But that was an issue of me running at the wrong droid 50% of the time that stopped us killing her)

 

Believe me droids are the least of the problems in that fight

[Gyronamics]

It's fatal to move before you see the direction of the lightning. Even if you're a slow class there's nothing to gain by guessing before it's there.

[justinplainview]

As somebody who was very recently a SM raider who had about 2 months of HM experience before jumping up to World Progression in NiM, I feel like I can add some insight.

 

The jump from HM to NiM is not an extreme jump of raw numbers required, at least not in the nerfed state of DF and DP. For your raid group, the jump will be all about accountability. Taking all numbers out of the equation for a moment, the ability for your Sentinels to maintain uptime across target swapping, or other mechanics? Paramount. Your Sage needs to be able to keep him/herself bubbled, put out optimal damage, and not trash your force. Your commando, since he/she is the lowest parser in your group, will need to figure out how to maximize every global for damage. If your ceiling is 3k, you're already at a disadvantage, because there is a drop-off of Dummy to NiM Raid DPS levels.

 

In addition, you're going to need to spec a little differently. Most Sentinels going Watchman in HM are specced 36/8/2. They'll need to spec into Defensive Roll. Your commando may occasionally take talents they may not otherwise just to mitigate damage (whatever the pub side equivalent of Suit FOE for mercs is to try and take less damage on the dot during Tyrans), etc. Though the damage is considerably lower than pre nerf levels, considering your raid groups relative inexperience, I'd suggest that your Shadow goes hybrid tank spec for a number of fights. NiM raiding is almost more about minimizing damage taken and surviving throughout a fight more than it is about purely DPS. Survive as long as you can through each pull, and with experience, your raid begins to understand how to maximize DPS.

 

Your healing combo is considered to be the optimal healing group for the current NiM content. I can't give a wealth of advice on healing, but just understand that Healing is not about spam healing in NiM. You don't tunnel the raid frame every fight. You heal exactly as much as you need to in order for everyone to stay alive. You heal your tank to a level where you can leave him for a number of GCDs in order to level out the rest of the raid. Since you have a Scoundrel, you don't need to spam people up to 100%. You can leave them at the mid 80's and let the Scoundrel's hots do the rest. Healers are expected to do damage in many fights during NiM. On some fights, it's because of a lack of damage taken by the raid. In other fights, it's because of the DPS requirement. Overall, healers will be DPSing in a significant way on the following fights on DP NiM: Bestia, Calphayus, Council. (Also Tyrans and Raptus depending on how the nerf is for your healing group). Just about every fight in NiM DF has healers putting in Damage because there just isn't much damage going around. Get them used to prioritizing globals between dealing damage in downtime after re-hotting/shelling, and being able to deftly recover when the tanks spike.

 

In response to a few other posts in this thread, I'm not sure I agree with Levram, saying it's not an advantage to have two marauders. I agree, additional utility is preferred, but straight up, having at least half your raid with 30% AOE DR is pretty great baseline utility to begin with. Marauders take no damage when played correctly. There's absolutely nothing wrong with Guardian DPS, but it has a lower ceiling than Sentinels, and If they have Sents doing only 3700 and 3500 respectively, I doubt they have Guardian toons doing that. As for Shadows, they do MASSIVE damage, and good lord are they nice to have in a raid, but straight up, they're squishier. Yes, the content is nerfed to all hell, and if you did it pre nerf, it's elementary by comparison, but for groups just getting HM on farm, it's still going to feel a bit overwhelming at first. Bestia for the first 2:30 for this group is going to be a bit of a wake up call, even in it's extremely nerfed state.

 

I agree to a degree with Lace of DiLiH. Treat this as progression. Don't worry about numbers (at least at first). Just keep trying to get deeper into the fight with each pull. Push to see the next phase. Even if you know it's a wipe. Try and get your raid accustomed to what's required. Get them used to the mechanics. Then you can start worrying about the checks. At first, your numbers WILL be short of the requirement because on day one of NiM, a raid team will not be doing optimum damage. Just keep returning to Area Start, and get ready for the next pull.

 

Best of luck

[MeatbagTitan]

The attitude shift is paramount- as others have said is everyone on your team ready to hold themselves accountable for executing their mechanics, knowing their class/talent tree well to play it to the fullest (justin gives some good tangible examples) and for continuing to press on trying to improve in the face of wipes repeatedly. It's good if you all have been running together for a while and are comfortable with one another, you've got to spin that commitment and really look to see where you can improve, where GCDs/uptime is being wasted, and how you can better master the mechanics. People have to be willing to own up to their own mistakes and help one another identify mistakes without getting defensive, and then turn around and correct those mistakes so that the group can keep progressing. Draxus is still a pretty substantial coordination check with the DPS and interrupts in various phases to get through- and it takes everyone pitching in and being on the exact same page.

 

Having people in the group willing to research, look up vids of other guilds or solid players playing the same class/role is very helpful too, as you can pick up from others great tricks you can implement to better execute a mechanic or use utility features of your class to manage mechanics and damage.

 

Ultimately, it's a fun good step forward to take, just make sure you all stay on the same page and are ready to put in the work! Don't get discouraged if you hit a wall here and there but be realistic and look to see where you can improve continually.

[Joran-Koon]

I'm also a believer of being solid in HM before the move. Too many times I see teams stoked to down them and then be off to NiM the next week. I would say you'd be at a good point if you can blow through both HMs in one night. Prove to yourselves that HM truly is easy and you are all ready to take the next step.

NiM builds on aspects of HM and being solid in HM helps with the initial shock in NiM. Not to mention min/max'in everyone at 180 helps soften the blow as well.

 

So i guess what I'm saying is on top of everything already said, don't move on to the next tier simply because it's there. Move on when it truly is the next step. If you're team gets bored in HM and clears both ops in under 3 hours in a night, then it's time. Or the moment your team starts saying "it's just HM..." might also indicate its time to move up.

 

Last thing. Both DF and DP and range dps friendly and there are going to be fights that they will have to carry a bit simply due to travel time. My suggestion would be that your ranged dps be a little more rock solid in terms of output. My guess is nefra will be doable but draxus will test ya. NiM Draxus needs everyone to do (and I might need some input on this from the community) a minimum of 2800+. So next time you pull draxus in HM, see where your dps stands. That should help gauge how NiM draxus will go on top of executing the new mechanics.

[justinplainview]

I'm also a believer of being solid in HM before the move. Too many times I see teams stoked to down them and then be off to NiM the next week. I would say you'd be at a good point if you can blow through both HMs in one night. Prove to yourselves that HM truly is easy and you are all ready to take the next step.

NiM builds on aspects of HM and being solid in HM helps with the initial shock in NiM. Not to mention min/max'in everyone at 180 helps soften the blow as well.

 

So i guess what I'm saying is on top of everything already said, don't move on to the next tier simply because it's there. Move on when it truly is the next step. If you're team gets bored in HM and clears both ops in under 3 hours in a night, then it's time. Or the moment your team starts saying "it's just HM..." might also indicate its time to move up.

 

Last thing. Both DF and DP and range dps friendly and there are going to be fights that they will have to carry a bit simply due to travel time. My suggestion would be that your ranged dps be a little more rock solid in terms of output. My guess is nefra will be doable but draxus will test ya. NiM Draxus needs everyone to do (and I might need some input on this from the community) a minimum of 2800+. So next time you pull draxus in HM, see where your dps stands. That should help gauge how NiM draxus will go on top of executing the new mechanics.

 

As a general rule, how much DPS you need on Draxus also depends on whether or not you are 4 or 5 DPSing the fight. Your general DPS minimum seems correct, but I'd add the obvious "if someone is doing under 2800, that's okay, but somebody needs to pick up the slack on their end

[Levram]

It's good if you all have been running together for a while and are comfortable with one another, you've got to spin that commitment and really look to see where you can improve, where GCDs/uptime is being wasted, and how you can better master the mechanics. People have to be willing to own up to their own mistakes and help one another identify mistakes without getting defensive, and then turn around and correct those mistakes so that the group can keep progressing.

 

This is a great point. Nightmare progression is going to involve a lot of wipes. Your team needs to make the most of those wipes by critically assessing every pull and correctly identifying what mistake resulted in the wipe. The worst attitude that anyone can bring to nightmare raiding is defensiveness. It's such a roadblock to efficiently finding the right path forward for your team.

 

When everyone's heading back to the boss for another pull and the operation leader asks, "so what caused that wipe?" two things need to happen.

 

1) People need to own up to their own mistakes.

 

Having a tank admit that they lost aggro on a monster in Bestia, a healer say that they missed a Deathmark cleanse, or a DPS say that they stood in something stupid and died is much more productive than having a person stay silent and try to correct their own mistake.

 

Healers and DPS could coordinate their aggro drops to help the tank, a Merc/Sorc/Operative DPS could cleanse a missed Deathmark, teammates could warn the DPS if they're about to stand in stupid in case there's a graphic lag for that DPS. The entire team can help make fights smoother for everyone.

 

2) People need to identify other people's mistakes.

 

Sometimes people may not know what killed them or if they made a mistake. There are half a dozen things happening in a nightmare fight at any given moment and everyone can't always be aware of everything. If someone else had a clear view of the wipe and saw the error, they should be comfortable to speak up so the mistake is correctly identified. This is where everyone being open to criticism and feedback is most important. Team members can't wall themselves off from commentary on their own performance. Nightmare content is a full team effort, always.

Edited September 22, 2014 by Levram

[JMagee]

As an aside to Accountability.

 

NiM progression (at any level) can easily bring out the best/worst in people. Personality clashes are more common when everyone needs to pull their weight and fulfill their role on a fight. Managing people and their personalities may be one of the biggest surprises you don't even think about being an issue in HM.

 

That Sentinel parsing 3700 may not have had any issues with HM DP/DF, because it was probably more likely your issues were coordination/mechanic based things that you had to work through. But in NiM, if he is constantly doing what is needed to progress, and other people aren't making the grade, the wipes are going to eventually wear on people.

 

The NiM roadblocks are very rarely mechanic based, and more likely of a "need more DPS, healing or better tanking" There will be a lot more "I'm doing this task properly, so it must be the other person who's to blame"

 

Try and keep open dialog with everyone. Be flexible. Try switching up responsibilities (draxus, CZ) and have everyone be vocal. There is always a weakest link, by definition. It's important to try and figure out how to make your weakest link better, or the morale and desire of the whole team is going to be awful.

Edited September 22, 2014 by JMagee

[vVvCheese]

Your comp is fine. Everyone above has said lots of good things about accountability that I don't need to expand on.

 

The DPS numbers your DPS is doing are, flatly, not enough. The DPS check on Bestia will be a rude wakeup call, and you're all going to need to learn your class better. 3800 dummy parses is the low end of the spectrum for viable Sentinel DPS. The in-fight DPS check to pass phase 2 of NiM Council (which is a ways away for you, worry about getting 5/5 DF and 4/5 DP first) requires about 16000 Raid DPS per second, and assuming you're getting 2500 from your healers and tanks (which is generous), each of your raiders needs to be doing about 3400 in that phase to squeak by. Your average DPS dummy parse is only 3375, and you're not going to be hitting dummy numbers in that phase because there's a minimum of 2 target swaps and some downtime.

 

You will almost certainly (with enough perseverance, some good RNG, and an understanding of the mechanics) be able to get through 4/5 both instances, but the last bosses will be a complete and utter brick wall until your DPS does better numbers. For reference, a "decent" parse from a Sentinel is about 3900, a Sage 3800-3900, and a Commando about 3850, and these are not top end parses.

[AAAAzrael]

I'd say until everyone pulls 3500+ in actual fights while executing mechanics at least most of the time it will be very very hard. But then you guys are not yet in full DF gear so even first pieces from DF will increase your DPS significantly and off-hands and such will make massive difference. Don't worry too much and keep going.

 

Somebody mentioned this and it's one of the hardest things in NiM in my opinion - at some point you will find out that some on your team cannot do any better and need to be replaced to progress further. It's very frustrating especially if said people can't realise it themselves, but team mates can hold you back and then everyone grows frustrated and people start to leave - usually the most talented ones first.

 

To be fair the human part of NiM raiding is harder then actual content itself. I think I spent more time trrying to organise the raids and make people do what they need to do when they need to do it then in actual raiding over last couple of months.

[MayhemofChaonus]

I'd say until everyone pulls 3500+ in actual fights while executing mechanics at least most of the time it will be very very hard. But then you guys are not yet in full DF gear so even first pieces from DF will increase your DPS significantly and off-hands and such will make massive difference. Don't worry too much and keep going.

 

Somebody mentioned this and it's one of the hardest things in NiM in my opinion - at some point you will find out that some on your team cannot do any better and need to be replaced to progress further. It's very frustrating especially if said people can't realise it themselves, but team mates can hold you back and then everyone grows frustrated and people start to leave - usually the most talented ones first.

 

To be fair the human part of NiM raiding is harder then actual content itself. I think I spent more time trrying to organise the raids and make people do what they need to do when they need to do it then in actual raiding over last couple of months.

 

*Rasises hand* Umm can I just ask one question? Who asked for this? I know this doesn't exactly line up with the thread's topic, but i have to know who would ask for such a raiding mode if it is so socially destructive? If a game or some of its content is so difficult that it can literally destroy real-life relationships because of how mind-numbingly difficult and insanely complex it is....isn't no longer a game but now an exercise in sadism and cruelty on the developer's part? I've have heard horror stories on the forums before (in other games as well as SWTOR) how NiM and similar modes in other games have quite literally destroyed friendships that lasted for months or (in one particular case in WOW) years beforehand. Why would anyone in their right mind ask for a challenge so difficult that it could end time-tested relationships? Again, I am fully aware this is off-topic, and if anyone can link me to the thread where I CAN ask this sort of question I will gladly delete this post and post my feelings there. But it seems to me that NiM just isn't worth (even post-nerf) the immense amount of trouble and real-life risk to the relationships between the members of your raid team, no matter how good you guys are or how well you know each other. Can anyone please explain to me what makes it worth it? Because I really and truly cannot understand it right now.

[FerkWork]

*Rasises hand* Umm can I just ask one question? Who asked for this? I know this doesn't exactly line up with the thread's topic, but i have to know who would ask for such a raiding mode if it is so socially destructive? If a game or some of its content is so difficult that it can literally destroy real-life relationships because of how mind-numbingly difficult and insanely complex it is....isn't no longer a game but now an exercise in sadism and cruelty on the developer's part? I've have heard horror stories on the forums before (in other games as well as SWTOR) how NiM and similar modes in other games have quite literally destroyed friendships that lasted for months or (in one particular case in WOW) years beforehand. Why would anyone in their right mind ask for a challenge so difficult that it could end time-tested relationships? Again, I am fully aware this is off-topic, and if anyone can link me to the thread where I CAN ask this sort of question I will gladly delete this post and post my feelings there. But it seems to me that NiM just isn't worth (even post-nerf) the immense amount of trouble and real-life risk to the relationships between the members of your raid team, no matter how good you guys are or how well you know each other. Can anyone please explain to me what makes it worth it? Because I really and truly cannot understand it right now.

 

Holy JesusBot Mary and Kephess that necro.

[TACeMossie]

*Rasises hand* Umm can I just ask one question? Who asked for this? I know this doesn't exactly line up with the thread's topic, but i have to know who would ask for such a raiding mode if it is so socially destructive? If a game or some of its content is so difficult that it can literally destroy real-life relationships because of how mind-numbingly difficult and insanely complex it is....isn't no longer a game but now an exercise in sadism and cruelty on the developer's part? I've have heard horror stories on the forums before (in other games as well as SWTOR) how NiM and similar modes in other games have quite literally destroyed friendships that lasted for months or (in one particular case in WOW) years beforehand. Why would anyone in their right mind ask for a challenge so difficult that it could end time-tested relationships? Again, I am fully aware this is off-topic, and if anyone can link me to the thread where I CAN ask this sort of question I will gladly delete this post and post my feelings there. But it seems to me that NiM just isn't worth (even post-nerf) the immense amount of trouble and real-life risk to the relationships between the members of your raid team, no matter how good you guys are or how well you know each other. Can anyone please explain to me what makes it worth it? Because I really and truly cannot understand it right now.

 

Well for one this post is almost a year old...

[AlrikFassbauer]

Well for one this post is almost a year old...

 

Is this an answer to his post ?

[TACeMossie]

Is this an answer to his post ?

 

Sort of. His whole post was going on about how its destroying friendships, even with the 5 level advantage. Only it doesn't with the 5 level advantage. You only need a minor amount of skill + coordination for 90% of the NiM fights in this game: Brontes, Dread Council, and probably Op IX (I haven't done TFB NiM since 3.0) would be the actually difficult ones. And Ops Chief (maybe)

[FerkWork]

Sort of. His whole post was going on about how its destroying friendships, even with the 5 level advantage. Only it doesn't with the 5 level advantage. You only need a minor amount of skill + coordination for 90% of the NiM fights in this game: Brontes, Dread Council, and probably Op IX (I haven't done TFB NiM since 3.0) would be the actually difficult ones. And Ops Chief (maybe)

 

I find it ironic as they aren't making anymore NiM

[bdatt]

To answer the necro'ers question, some people care more about the content than the people they play with. In fact, some (clearly not all) probably view their teammates as merely numbers. I may be putting words in someone's mouth, but I think I recall one of the Zorz founders basically saying he didn't give a damn about the people in Hatred, it was all about doing whats necesary to clear the content first.

 

Most probably find balance and when they form stable groups of equally skilled/dedicated players they either clear content or accept their limitations.

Edited August 29, 2015 by bdatt