The point I was making regarding undermanned and solo-role SMs is that if an Operation can be completed by 5people, than the efforts of 3 additional people would be effectively zero. They would not have to be able to do anything to be successful. This example is not really applicable for 100% true random groups through GF, but the idea is the same. If the role of a person who is in an operation for the 1st time can be completely marginalized, than that person isn't really learning anything. The most likely scenario could be "Guild run, looking for 2 more, queuing through GF for comms" But you're right, it's still early in the cycle and we'll see what happens. I think making it easier will allow more people to see the content short-term, but could decrease long-term retaining of raiders.

Bu there's no guarantee that this is happening. The "problem" has just been moved. Before 4.0, there was more individual responsibility than there is now. I'm sure you could find easily find compositions today that would result in all SMs being solo-tanked, or solo-healed, or under-manned (DPS). Now it seems way simpler to be carried through a SM than ever before. If people think they are good healers, good tanks, good DPS, there can be situations where they get no negative feedback. I'm sure "leave him dead" or "just ignore him and let him do what he wants" will be typed out and uttered more than it was pre-4.0. Becoming more forgiving does not necessarily equal an opportunity for learning. If their contributions can be ignored (with certain group comps), then they can't be receiving honest feedback as to their own ability. There's no proof (e.g. wipes on underlurker in 3.x) that there may be issues. While I'm happy more people will be able to experience the Operation stories, I am expecting a vocal portion of the player base (probably a minority, and different than the 3.x base) to begin with similar "x is too hard on HM" complaints. There's always going to be brick-wall in progression. And if people that used to be content with SMs are no longer content with them, then HMs may suffer a similar "adjustment" in the future.

If you read the patch note(s) and actually think while playing the class, you should know which ability gets upgraded for your spec.

No, it was never 1k/10k. It was 100/1000. I would never have had the patience to kill 10k mobs on 40companions.

Fair point with regard to the Ilum level requirement being universal. Oversight on my part. I disagree with the only rationale being influence gains. It could very well be the reason, but I don't subscribe to it. It could be part of their "streamlining" of the story-leveling experience. Belsavis and Ilum were the original dailies and were grinded everyday into the ground way-back-when to get Rakata implants. With the way entry level comms/crystals are given out now, there is considerable less requirement to run them at all. This is not to say that their inclusion was negatively impacting the game in its current state. It wasn't I don't know the last time that I went to run dailies on Ilum/Belsavis, so I couldn't even say what the rewards were (basic comms, would be by guess) but I wouldn't be surprised if it was underutilized content that they felt when people stumbled across it for the first time wouldn't be "wise" enough to understand and appreciate why it exists. Those daily missions were a means to an end way back in 1.x, but now they kind of do feel "dated" and "relics of the past" so I could understand why they may feel it necessary to clean up dailies on planets that contain story. But as I stated earlier, their removal is also strange as they weren't hurting anyone.

I would be shocked if this weren't the reason. All these conspiracy theories are pretty humorous to read though. The simple answer (not saying it was the right decision) is the only way you can enforce a level sync is if all the quests on the planet are approximately the same level, or if you make the bonus series/planetary dailies (Belsavis/Ilum) max level (65) quests. A lot of people saw this being a potential issue and asked about what the solution would be, but never got any reply. I'd be curious to see what the mob levels in the bonus series areas and daily areas (e.g. killiks on alderaan pub side) are now. If they're closer to the planet level then I think you'd have you answer. For the bonus series specifically, maybe they get rolled into the planet quests at level, but people saying they can't get the quests back, then I'd guess they're gone for good. Seems like removing them will sort of make whole sections of planets ripe for the question "Why isn't there anything for me to do here?"

Question 1. I guess you could call it luck. Shout and orange both go out on random players. Usually DPS. I can't think of too many instances where a healer got shout/orange circles/curse. But it's certainly not a 1-2 punch that should kill anyone. The circles if handled properly don't do any damage, so if they were taking a beating from them, they need to improve on how to handle dropping them correctly.. Question 2. The fight's been "fixed" several times I honestly don't remember what the actual color requirement is on Story Mode and what the rules are to handle it properly. If the group has any aspirations of attempting the fight in HM, I'd say have 2 groups of 2 alternate between 2 different colors (e.g R-Y-R-Y and G-P-G-P) so they can get a feel for how to handle this part of the fight, as it will be critical in HM. I don't know what the group comp is, but having too many turret classes can make getting the colors a bit trickier. But if you have a sentinel available, Transcendence can be a life saver. If not, people will just have to get comfortable with getting into positions at the right time and getting colors. I personally think 3-heals, 1-tank (and 1-DPS with a taunt for a Bite Wounds stack) is the easiest way to handle the fight. The healing requirement was the toughest part for us, and by adding a 3rd healer without losing much DPS, the outgoing damage became a lot more forgiving. But it can also be done easily with 2 healers if the group is organized enough. Keep pulling and adjusting and you'll get there.

I don't think we're going to see eye-to-eye on this discussion. For me, a heal, by function, is always reactionary. If you are at full health, and you heal yourself, it does no good. It doesn't give you 115% health. If you're at 80%HP and you heal, you're reacting to the loss of HP, not preparing for more damage. It depends what the result is. If the heal = FA = flat DR than the result wouldn't be different. The point I'm trying to make regarding Adrenaline Rush is somewhat different. If I only had time to either cast a heal, force armor, or Reactive Shield, my choice is going to depend on what I think the next X seconds of "my life" is going to be. If I expect to taking a lot of damage, Reactive Shield is going to be the choice because it has the highest potential to lessen damage. Heal (if not 100%) and Force Armor are known quantities of HP/Absorb shield. The issue I have with AR is with it's current functionality there isn't really a situation where you think "This is the job for AR". It doesn't provide any DR, so in order for it to be most effective, it needs to be used in conjunction with Reactive Shield, and at best it delays the inevitable. If you use it under focus fire, it may not keep you alive. In my game experiences, the only "efficient" (and really impossible) way to use Adrenaline Rush is to somehow run away from all damage and use it as a ~30% heal. There are just too many situations where you activate the ability at >40% HP. And then you take damage that brings you <15% HP. And if you continue taking damage, AR doesn't heal you quickly enough to offset the incoming damage. So yes, it is a DCD, but it's incredibly situational and, like Sonic Defense, not always effective at keeping you alive.

Exactly, it was basically a root breaker that was tied to Electro-shield pre-2.0. (I think it also may have removed slows, so maybe "movement impairing effect remover" is "more right") When VGs finally got a threat drop in 2.0 (Diversion) they switched it to work off of Diversion instead. Which from 2.0-2.4 was a "root-breaker". It then became the defense chance buff instead, as you summed up nicely above. And "cleanse" isn't too difficult of a term to understand in general, but when an ability in this game that has a functionally different outcome is called a "cleanse", calling the removal of movement impairing effects a "cleanse" is wrong. If I used Diversion with 2 DoTs on my VG during 2.0-2.4, it would not remove them. Hence, not a cleanse.

Can "something" be someone who is familiar with the terms used in this game, can partake in an intelligent discussion and provide factual information? Because once again, chaff flare/diversion was never a cleanse.

Really? Try again

Agree to disagree with this one. Adrenaline rush is extremely situational at best. I don't see anything about it being proactive. It only works when you take damage and reach a certain hp% threshold, which makes it by definition, reactive. It only heals you once you take further damage, which again is reactive. It heals for a set amount per second independent of how much damage you take. It can easily be overwhelmed by 1.5 people's damage(1 direct, 1 person's DoTs) in PvP and does not provide any sort of anti-focus utility. The absolute best case scenario if you manage to stay alive through AR is that you are at 40% life and dead within 3more GCDs. Now, if it could be activated at any HP % and allowed to heal to 100% health (within its current time/Heal per second limits), it would be a proactive DCD. But as it stands now, the best you can hope for is that you can avoid taking damage faster than it can heal you, which is usually a role of the dice.

As far as I know, the colors spawning at a particular location are completely random. So I would expect that the same color could spawn at the same location twice, which as it seems you are aware, would kill the person getting that color. I think the easiest way to do it is to have 2 groups of 2 alternate between colors. We have 2 people switch back and forth between red and yellow and two people switch off between purple/green. Without going into more details about what sort of issues you're having, I don't know if anyone would be able to provide you any more tips

I don't doubt that it would. And I'm not going to say people would be silly for acting that way. But if/when the game does something that would garner a similar response from like like those you mention, I'd reconsider my options and see if something else better fit my wants/goals. Would I be OK with your hypothetical? It depends. Would the 7 other people I normally run Operations with feel the same way as I do, or would some of them jump ship? It's a difficult question that I couldn't give a black-and-white answer to. Right now I still enjoy raiding as something to do with my free time. If your "expansion idea" negatively impacted on that, then maybe there would be some vitriol. But if it didn't, I'd like to think the camaraderie and "progression clearing" feeling would still remain, even if it's not as great as the first time you killed NiM Styrak way back when. I guess I'll find out.

While all the above is fact, I guess my outlook is just different. Like many people have said (with varying degrees of fact) it's sort of just the nature of the beast. And if you've not really progressed into HM Rav/ToS yet, then you've missed the boat (not that that is an acceptable explanation). This sort of reboot feels more like a season or ladder reset in a game like D3 than a traditional MMO expansion. A complete gearing "restart' and those kind of resets tend to be a breath of fresh air, personally, YMMV. Things may be being "restricted or taken away" but I know they'll be "unlocked" again soon enough. The no new Operations content is the part that throws this whole thing off. The way I look at it is "If you have BiS prior to level cap raise, that should be slightly better than entry level 65 gear (which it likely will be) and that the hardest Ops content will require that "grind" again to be able to complete it. It's just the new hard Ops are the old previously hard Ops. So it's just sort of a reboot for me. Time to run ops all over again. One topic that I haven't seen get a lot of traction is whether people think HM ToS/Rav to become "easier" at 65 at appropriate gear level or if something like NiM EV will be "harder' than ToS. I guess it comes down to how damage gets rebalanced vs. existing mechanics. I'm sure I'll peak my head in, but I can tell you right now I would bet against myself clearing Rav HM 2.0 in Rav HM 1.0 gear. But my outlook is more that I look forward to getting back to that point to give it a shot (see if it's harder/easier) than getting worked up that I can't keep doing what I've been doing.

I'm still not following your first point. What am I wrong about? I know I walked into HM Rav/ToS with 186 old set bonus gear. And continued to walk into it each week until I was in 192/198 from SM/HM 3.0 Ops. Your use of the word "need" doesn't really seem to mean what you think it does. Why do you keep bringing up 168 gear level when comparing it to HM ToS/Rav? I agree it would be close to impossible to make a dent in HM Rav in 168, but I'm not contesting that. All I said was when 3.0 hit and I was ready to start SM/HM Rav/ToS, 186 gear (which was BiS in 2.x) was sufficient to a. Clear SM effortlessly b. Make a dent in HM (while some better groups probably cleared way way further) So based on that comparison alone, I would believe that 198gear would be more than sufficient to enter some (maybe not all) HM in KotFE. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm not. Maybe some groups it will be OK for, others it will be a non-starter.

I don't really have any sort of hard numbers or baseline that could be used in an equation of the type "If X>Y, then sufficient" where X equals your group member heals and Y equals a hard barrier. But to just bring some other viewpoints into the discussion (on the odd chance you haven't considered their value) I don't think healing numbers should really be "standard". I don't heal, so I can't provide a POV, but things I think more about than healing numbers. a. Avoiding damage: The number I'd personally focus on way before (e)HPS is DTPS. The load being put on the healers directly influences their output. As you mentioned about healer DPS. A lot of fights (and guides) mentions healers being able to DPS during phases. If you find your healers aren't able to output damage at those times, it could be because of a lot of avoidable damage that isn't being avoided. b. Positioning/Situational Awareness: Organizing groups smartly (DPS/Healers) to benefit from AoE heals during down-times in fights also helps healing, while potentially lessening HPS numbers. If you have smart, mobile DPS who know to sneak into a Salvation while DPSing to top themselves off, or to stack up after attack X for a Kolto Wave top-off can potentially save a lot of lost heals if that DPS then needs to eat a big heal instead. c. Cooldown usage. Especially important for tanks, but another easy way to help healers is to proactively use DR CDs (e.g. Reactive Shield/Resilience) instead of players using them only when things begin going wrong and their HP is low. And as a corollary to that, smart usage of CDs. Knowing what DCDs are beneficial to what types of attacks and when they should be used (especially for tanks). d. Controlling a Fight. Torque can be an overly stimulating fight, visually, but it's all about controlling Torque and having timers in your head of when things to be done. Depending on group composition, most non-tanks should be taking very little damage. But if Fire Devices aren't dealt with properly and moved out of, or the turrets are allowed to enrage, things can get out of hand, quickly. But for our group, getting over the hump for that fight was all about being able to get better control over Torque. Being able to get him to break the same console each time. Learning how to best handle turrets and Shoots Lasers. When/where to move Torque and how to effectively AoE. As I said earlier, I'm sure a lot of the above considerations are already common knowledge, I just think it's incredibly difficult to set a healing standard without thinking about the things that could effect healer output. There will of course be edge cases where you know straight away who's not being able to carry their weight, but aside from that, I think it can be very situational.

I think his point is more along the line of... People in full 186 (NiM DF/DP) (pre-3.0 BiS) gear were certainly able to walk into HM ToS/Rav and make some headway the first week. Clearly SM was a non-issue. I don't know why you would bring up several tiers prior (168 was TFB/SV, I think) He said older, which 1 tier below is. Why did you decide to jump on older and make it several tiers older? I don't think someone in Tionese gear could do it either, so his point must be unbelievable (am I doing it right:?) I haven't been paying attention to the info that's been put out. But I suspect that being in full 198/204 will certainly allow an above average team to make a HM push the first week (probably even a NiM push if they want).

Playing off of this idea, but going in a slightly different direction.. Right now most groups pick a console (usually front right) as the console that always breaks. If you add separate effects to them, then there is still going to be a "least bad" effect, and I wouldn't expect the status quo to change much. it just may become hold at back left instead of right front. If anything I'd like to see a debuff somehow added to the console that either was a countdown until how long it could be repaired (console cannot be repaired for x sec), or a some sort of stacking effect (up to 2) that makes it permanently un-repairable. And of course drop the 3 console and wipe down to 2. Similarly an idea where after being repaired a console goes into stand by mode and says "if this console is destroyed again in the next x:xx, it will be permanently lost" There needs to be a reason to cycle consoles, not just find one that is the easiest to handle. And while it's just a fun exercise, I'll be glum for a moment and say a lot of the really movement impairing or movement based ideas mentioned above I'm not a huge fan of, because I think it will further restrict group diversity, which I know is sort of a necessary evil. But when it comes to ideas/mechanics the revolve around being well-spaced, the melee inside of me gets sad.

If you take Sonic Defense out of Tactics, I really think you need to put some sort of defensive back in. Not from a Tactics vs. Plasmatech survivability standpoint, but from an overall # of DCDs on Tactics stand point. You get rid of Sonic Defense, Tactics has 2 DCDs (not including the passive traits). That's not enough. Adrenaline Rush barely counts because it doesn't proactively mitigate damage. Leaving Tactics with only reactive shield and its intermediate length cooldown (if you're avoiding damage elsewhere) is going to make a pretty glass-cannon spec even more glass cannon in PvE in PvP. Maybe tactics could get the ability to place the Rebounder Shield on the VG himself as a replacement, but the idea of removing 33% of tactics' DCDs (and arguably the one that can be most beneficial in PvP) is just going to make the spec die even quicker.

My argument is this. These mechanics shouldn't be an issue whether they kill you or not. The objective is to handle them properly and never have to worry about dying. If you're concerned about failing the mechanics, practice more. One-shotting is only a threat. If you do something wrong, you should lose. Period. If you don't like being one shot by something, do things the right way. No Brontes' overpower beam is not hard. I don't die from it. So for me, whether it kills me or buffs the fingers if I stand in it is a moot point because it's a not something I do. Again, do it right or die. I'm not interested in the difference between dying to Overpowered Beam or dying 30sec later because I stood in it. To mean it's the same ending. A failure. Time to do it again. If the group was able to get through the fingers even with them buffed (in your example) then your change made the fight easier. It's a simple as that.

OK that's fine. So let's say we remove the one-shot color deletion from Op IX and replace it with a different result (buff/debuff/etc.). How do you balance the difficulty of someone dying vs. some other sort of negative result. The "balance" goal in all of these mechanics is quite simple. Get them right or die. That's how difficulty works in these sorts of things. Do what is asked from you or lose. Changing that edict to "Do what is asked from you or maybe die" is by definition lowering the difficulty. I, and a bunch of other people in this thread, can't wrap my head around how wiping due to an instant kill vs. wiping later in the fight due to a series of failures of mechanics is any different. The only small difference that I can see is that your "non one-shot mechanics" gives more leeway for marginal, overleveled groups to complete the content . A mechanic failure needs to equal out in order for the difficulty to remain. If you're trying to balance a wipe due to a one-shot kill with some other effect, the result still needs to be the same. A wipe.

I think your underlying issue is the following; You can't handle the mechanics. If I took away the ability of everything in the game to one-shot someone and replaced it with some other effect (stacking damage debuff, stacking armor buff on the boss, -10sec enrage timer, 30k hit instead of one-shot) it's going to have the same effect in the end, a wipe. One shots are immediately unforgiving, if the mechanic is changed that not doing it causes you to die to enrage, is it really any improvement? PvE fights can be very simply boiled down to one sentence, "Do things properly and you win." If they got rid of the Op IX insta-kill color deletion and replaced it "Boss now takes 25% less damage" it has the same effect (assuming a DPS were to die) would that suddenly be OK with you? It's not a 1shot, but if you're doing it at level it will still cause a wipe, in the end, more than likely. You keep repeating that 1-shot mechanics are bad, but never say why. Mechanics are what make HM/NiM enjoyable to some people, and I bet you could find some people that would argue that more mechanics should have more dire consequences if they are failed. Why don't you like them?

Or just use 2 tanks like your supposed to. You couldn't get away with 1 tank on NiM Styrak at gear level when it came out, so I doubt you'd be able to when it's at gear level 2.0. Between tank KBs/chokes in the first phase, a tank potentially getting a nightmare in the second phase, and then holding the Kell Dragon or Styrak in their burn phases, I'd expect it to be too much for healers to deal with, at level.

The simple answer: Absolutely. It drops 192s in SM so you are at recommended gear-level. The more complex, situational answer...it depends. 1. Both OPs on SM have been 7-manned (and less) so you could, in principle, go in completely naked, /stuck every fight and the group could still be successful. 2. It really depends on the rest of the group. If the rest of the group is in 186s and is new to the game, or first timers in the OP or iaren't used to having to actually "try" in order to kill bosses. (By that I mean these SMs are a step up from previous SM OPs), it can easily snowball into failure. 3. If you're group finder-ing the Ops and things happen to take a turn for the worse, a lot of mediocre players will certainly try and scapegoat you as the reason why, saying that it's your fault we wiped (whether it is or isn't) because your gear isn't good enough and you don't have the achievement. You should be able to find plenty of good groups that would be willing to take you through. Just be upfront about gear/experience and it shouldn't be a problem.