The Scam/Not a Scam debate storyline

[Deewe]

You didn't read his post at all. It would destroy the concept of a free market.

Read it but free market is overrated, and I was only pointing out that scam sales can fairly easily be narrowed with math.

 

And how many listings would I have to create at 10% of the market value before that algorithm started thinking the people who are listing the same item at market value are trying to scam buyers?

 

How long before others crack the algorithm and begin using it to destroy the market value for goods to the point where the system only allows items to be listed at a prices that force sellers to take a loss?

Good point and well I perfectly knew it when I wrote the answer

 

To be fair I don't think BioWare needs to go that route, but it can be done.

 

Now regarding your example, the easiest route is to make it so that the algorithm will be enabled only if you have more than one GTN page of items being sold, as it pretty easy to check the price when they are on one single page.

 

The better way would be for the game to keep stats of the items sales, a bit like Auctionner in WoW and then compare the data to the late trend, median and standard deviation. Does not need to be server side though as it would eat DB space for sure.

 

Then I don't see the algorithm forcing people to loss as it would be also easy to detect players that are trying to lower the price by selling items way cheaper than the usual price.

 

All lies in the fact that either the dumping or the scams price are very far from the usual rate.

 

I see many others issues, like an item becoming suddenly rare, so the price drastically increasing. But there are also ways to detect that.

 

Now, once again IMO too much effort for nothing versus few tweaks like, in specific order:

 

1. Price per unit limit
   
2. Option to toggle off decimals
   
3. /Account_ignore scam sellers
   

 

Would to the trick.

 

If I had to pick something to added/changed it would be auto-sorted to lowest when searching.

And automatically ignore the <2 letter strings in search.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Deewe

[robertthebard]

Oh how I remember NWN updates. Oh how I hated combing through 1 million lines of code to find out how a graphic update on a VFX caused my doors to quit closing or relocking per their script. There is also, however, how much I enjoyed the fix to the VFX. Things like getting rid of the decimal, or right aligning, or both, no reason they should be mutually exclusive "shouldn't" break anything. This does not mean they can't, or won't, but you know what? For a clearer UI in the GTN, I'd be willing to risk it. They have more people than I did to comb through code, and I managed to comb through mine in a few hours. It's not like every update we get breaks something, although my merchant NPCs in my Nar Shaddaa SH are still seemingly on strike, it's not like annoyances like that will break the game.

 

They were, after all, a QoL improvement to the SHs. I guess, if we have to, we can just use medical droids in hubs, or on the fleet to sell stuff. If people weren't so lazy, they wouldn't be a big deal. /sarcasm

 

You see that Reno? That's how you discern sarcasm when it's in printed text. Otherwise, people have no choice but to take what's written at face value. There is a chance that something could be broken. There is also a chance that nothing will be broken, and we'd get a "smoother", maybe, interface. I'll note here that while Eric did indeed say "it's not something they'll investigate", but it is something that he is sending to the devs, so maybe, just maybe he thinks that it's a problem. I don't care if it's a scam or not, what I do like is the idea of an improvement to the UI.

 

Mine are presumably simple, remove the decimal, since there is no case where the game pays you in fractions of a credit, and right align the text. This will have no evident adverse affect on anyone, other than people that take advantage of it for profit. It could slow down the amount of "I was scammed" posts here though, which, to me, would be a positive thing.

[TUXs]

I think the more interesting question is, why do they so vehemently oppose it? Why aren't just just neutral on it?

 

What would any of the proposed changes do to hurt the game?

Agreed Max. They protest a bit too much imo.

I understand them not wanting to waste Dev time, but we're talking about VERY minimal time if we:

1) drop decimals

2) right justify prices

3) auto sort lowest to highest prices

[Heal-To-Full]

Because I feel there is no need for the GTN UI to messed with since it's working good so far

Current GTN UI is total junk, and, unless SWTOR is the only thing you ever used internet for, you know it.

 

Poorly working search function, small non-resizable results window, everything resetting on any area change, unsorted results, poor presentation even when sorted, with no collapsing of identical items.

 

Try browsing for mounts - you have to scroll through 30 pages of Ubrikki Sand Cleaner, one by one, until you get to any real mount. Take a watch and measure how long it takes you to get to the first worthwhile mount you don't have. You can buy and sell a hundred barrels of oil and a few tons of copper on real-life markets in that time.

 

The only good thing about current GTN UI is that it certainly and by far beats having no GTN at all. But not for a second does it let you forget that it's just a little toy in a video game, not a real usability-focused UI.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Heal-To-Full

[Reno_Tarshil]

Current GTN UI is total junk, and, unless SWTOR is the only thing you ever used internet for, you know it.

 

Poorly working search function, small non-resizable results window, everything resetting on any area change, unsorted results, poor presentation even when sorted, with no collapsing of identical items.

 

Try browsing for mounts - you have to scroll through 30 pages of Ubrikki Sand Cleaner, one by one, until you get to any real mount. Take a watch and measure how long it takes you to get to the first worthwhile mount you don't have. You can buy and sell a hundred barrels of oil and a few tons of copper on real-life markets in that time.

 

The only good thing about current GTN UI is that it certainly and by far beats having no GTN at all. But not for a second does it let you forget that it's just a little toy in a video game, not a real usability-focused UI.

 

Never had any issue with the search function outside of it not allowing two letter words. Well of course it's going to reset, you're changing areas. Why should items be collapsed, they are unique listings.

 

If you're having trouble finding a mount on the GTN browse thru your collection and find the name there and look it up on the GTN.

[Arkerus]

Current GTN UI is total junk, and, unless SWTOR is the only thing you ever used internet for, you know it.

 

Poorly working search function, small non-resizable results window, everything resetting on any area change, unsorted results, poor presentation even when sorted, with no collapsing of identical items.

 

Try browsing for mounts - you have to scroll through 30 pages of Ubrikki Sand Cleaner, one by one, until you get to any real mount. Take a watch and measure how long it takes you to get to the first worthwhile mount you don't have. You can buy and sell a hundred barrels of oil and a few tons of copper on real-life markets in that time.

 

The only good thing about current GTN UI is that it certainly and by far beats having no GTN at all. But not for a second does it let you forget that it's just a little toy in a video game, not a real usability-focused UI.

 

I have never had a a major issue using the GTN GUI. I'm not saying there isn't room for improvement but I haven't had any major issues. Its been especially good since they added the SHIFT-ITEM linkage.

[Pirana]

It's not hard picking one of the headers and deciding either ascending or descending. How? By using your mouse and clicking that particular header, it's a lot of work, I know.

 

Could eliminate the decimals, but other than that, it works just fine, and removing those aren't necessary either.

[azudelphi]

Agreed Max. They protest a bit too much imo.

I understand them not wanting to waste Dev time, but we're talking about VERY minimal time if we:

1) drop decimals

2) right justify prices

3) auto sort lowest to highest prices

 

Decimal unification (toggle between dropping them or making them all have 2 places) and Right Justify are (in theory) a text format change. I am inclined to think that these are indeed very simplistic changes from a back end coding change.

 

Auto-sort would be the most complicated of the bunch and that function is already in game. Seemingly as simple a change as adding that function to the search script would be the implementation of the change.

 

If these 3 were implemented, I doubt many people would even attempt the predatory posting any more or at the very least there would be far less community sympathy for people who manage to over-pay for items. And while I do maintain these aren't entirely necessary with the options already available in game, I don't see these as terrible drains to development resources and wouldn't affect market functionality; all while mitigating the issue.

Edited November 13, 2014 by azudelphi

[Deewe]

Never had any issue with the search function outside of it not allowing two letter words. Well of course it's going to reset, you're changing areas. Why should items be collapsed, they are unique listings.

 

If you're having trouble finding a mount on the GTN browse thru your collection and find the name there and look it up on the GTN.

Collapsing is a must to have as one don't want to waste time going through dozens or more pages of mounts, dyes, soccorow weapons, cybernetic gear to find what's available.

 

Then once you find a proper item, nothing prevents you to expand it to see how others price it or if it's rare.

[EllieAnne]

Maybe my GTN interface is different than everyone else's but if I see something I want, I search for that item (shift-click), then sort by cost per item - lowest on top.

 

But I understand if your interface does not have a sorting function how confusing the whole "OMG there are numbers!" thing can be.

[DeLaaNie]

This reminds me of Maplestory wherein some people would create a "mule" with an extremely long name (usually full of M's) and use that name to cover up part of their sale price.

 

For example, you'd think you were buying a health potion for only 1000 mesos but because the M's were covering the rest of the price, you'd actually shell out 1 million or even 100 million for a single item. This is why it is very important to verify your purchase before you select okay.

[Orizuru]

This reminds me of Maplestory wherein some people would create a "mule" with an extremely long name (usually full of M's) and use that name to cover up part of their sale price.

 

For example, you'd think you were buying a health potion for only 1000 mesos but because the M's were covering the rest of the price, you'd actually shell out 1 million or even 100 million for a single item. This is why it is very important to verify your purchase before you select okay.

 

Maplestory is like Fight Club. You don't talk about it.

[anonnn]

Here's a condensed version of

my solution for preventing GTN buying mistakes

(any mistake, not just mistakes involving a potential pricing scam). This solution would provide an excellent level of buyer protection and the entire issue could be permanently shelved.

 

.

The solution is to change the existing Purchase Confirmation to:

.

• ALWAYS pop up when the purchase is 250K or more, with a 5-second delay on enabling the "OK" button
  .
  
• display the price in an attention-grabbing color at the levels of 100K credits 250K credits 2M credits
  

 

.

NOTE: . With the Preferences checkbox for "Purchase Confirmation Dialog" switched OFF, purchases below 250K credits should never show the popup confirmation. And with "Purchase Confirmation Dialog" switched ON, purchases below 250K should show the Purchase Confirmation WITHOUT the 5-second delay, while purchases 250K credits or greater should include the 5-second delay as described above.

.

[azudelphi]

Here's a condensed version of

/snip

And with "Purchase Confirmation Dialog" switched ON, purchases below 250K should show the Purchase Confirmation WITHOUT the 5-second delay, while purchases 250K credits or greater should include the 5-second delay as described above.

.

 

But wait... what if the buyer...

 

 

Is colorblind!!! Plot Twist Level: 9001

 

Edited November 13, 2014 by azudelphi

[LyraineAlei]

Here's a condensed version of

my solution for preventing GTN buying mistakes

(any mistake, not just mistakes involving a potential pricing scam). This solution would provide an excellent level of buyer protection and the entire issue could be permanently shelved.

 

.

The solution is to change the existing Purchase Confirmation to:

.

• ALWAYS pop up when the purchase is 250K or more, with a 5-second delay on enabling the "OK" button
  .
  
• display the price in an attention-grabbing color at the levels of 100K credits 250K credits 2M credits
  

 

.

NOTE: . With the Preferences checkbox for "Purchase Confirmation Dialog" switched OFF, purchases below 250K credits should never show the popup confirmation. And with "Purchase Confirmation Dialog" switched ON, purchases below 250K should show the Purchase Confirmation WITHOUT the 5-second delay, while purchases 250K credits or greater should include the 5-second delay as described above.

.

 

No matter how annoying and attention getting you make it, people will tune them our or ignore them.

 

Again, I point to my screaming child scenario.

 

Not to mention your suggestion, while a valid suggestion that could help prevent the problem, would require a serious overhaul of the current system. And such overhauls require a great deal of time (look at Disciplines, we've know about them for how long? And we are going to get them in almost two weeks).

 

Most of the other suggestions are less of an overhaul (setting auto-sort to lowest price, replacing just the total price fill in form box with a per-unit price box and so forth).

 

And no matter how long or short the bright! colorful! popup! will stick on the screen, people will ignore it. All colors used in such a manner are visual noise.

[EllieAnne]

I think I'm going to start selling bottles of Dromand Kaas Cabernet under the brand name "Screaming Korslug" on the GTN for 3750 credits each. That's thirty-seven fifty per bottle for those of you shopping on GTN without your glasses on.

[LordArtemis]

The list, reposted for newcomers to the thread.

 

IMO Buyers and Sellers have to both take responsibility for their behavior. Since most are unwilling to do that, this argument continues despite the efforts of some folks to just discuss the merits of the suggestions as QoL improvements for the GTN.

 

Here are most of the non-punitive suggestions made during the discussion.

 

1) The ability to ignore a character name on the GTN, so the items sold by that character are not shown in searches.

2) The ability to place a red flag on sellers you do not like, green flag on ones you prefer, and a sort function to move red flags to the bottom of a search, green flags to the top. Only you would see the flags you apply.

3) Remove the ability for the system to display fractional currency in the "price per unit" field.

4) Have the formatting right justified instead of left justified.

5) Have the ignore list also apply to the GTN.

6) Add a price per unit option for posting items for sale.

7) Default the GTN to sorting by lowest price first, or lowest per unit price.

8) Larger text for the price display.

9) Add a toggle to remove the display of fractional currency in the "price per item" field.

10) Line up all prices on the decimal, and display .00 for non fractional amounts.

11) Option to apply a maximum buyout price threshold to warn players if they exceed set amount in the purchase.

12) Optional to apply a maximum per item price threshold to warn players if they exceed set amount in the purchase.

 

 

I support 2, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10. I really like 2, 6 and 9. 6 seems to be the most popular one so far. I don't see the harm in 11 and 12, so they are included for folks to discuss, though I would not rate it as one of my favorite in the list.

[Essence_of_Light]

Honestly, I'm surprised this thread is still on the front page.

[Orizuru]

Here's a condensed version of

my solution for preventing GTN buying mistakes

(any mistake, not just mistakes involving a potential pricing scam). This solution would provide an excellent level of buyer protection and the entire issue could be permanently shelved.

 

Pop-ups are bad, mmmkay?

 

Seriously though, the general consensus among software designers and users is that pop-ups are annoying and should be used as little as possible. This is why nobody uses the confirmation pop-up that is already in the game. Adding a fancy new pop-up isn't going to change anything. You can dress a turd up in the finest silks, but its still just a turd that nobody wants to deal with.

[Anniahilus]

Honestly, I'm surprised this thread is still on the front page.

 

Me too ... but then I realized about 4 people just re-post their same view points in "a condensed form" every page or so. If you took those out, or those people gave it a rest for, oh I don't know ... say 24 hours, this post could finally just die, and move on from it's tortured existence. Even a dead horse feels bad for the beating this thread is taking ...

[LyraineAlei]

Honestly, I'm surprised this thread is still on the front page.

 

Eh, lot of us just have a ton of spare time.

[Tsillah]

One thing already... get rid of decimals. Who cares about .67 credits? Just round it off to the nearest whole credit. Why? Because it automatically makes lower prices a lot shorter therefore the difference between the lowest and highest price is much more obvious.

 

If the lowest price is 1,100.67 and the highest is 1,000,067 there is only one digit difference even though the price is hugely different. In my proposal this would then become 1,101 and the high one is still 1,000,067 ...that should help.

 

Seems simple enough.

[LordArtemis]

One thing already... get rid of decimals. Who cares about .67 credits? Just round it off to the nearest whole credit. Why? Because it automatically makes lower prices a lot shorter therefore the difference between the lowest and highest price is much more obvious.

 

If the lowest price is 1,100.67 and the highest is 1,000,067 there is only one digit difference even though the price is hugely different. In my proposal this would then become 1,101 and the high one is still 1,000,067 ...that should help.

 

Seems simple enough.

 

it would certainly clean up the display of prices, making it easier to compare prices for both buyers and sellers IMO.

[MillionsKNives]

One thing already... get rid of decimals. Who cares about .67 credits? Just round it off to the nearest whole credit. Why? Because it automatically makes lower prices a lot shorter therefore the difference between the lowest and highest price is much more obvious.

 

If the lowest price is 1,100.67 and the highest is 1,000,067 there is only one digit difference even though the price is hugely different. In my proposal this would then become 1,101 and the high one is still 1,000,067 ...that should help.

 

Seems simple enough.

 

Agreed. And I'm not even exaggerating when I say that it would likely only be a one line change to do this. Wherever they calculate the unit price, all they'd need to do is surround it in a floor/ceiling/round function and you're done.

[Tsillah]

Agreed. And I'm not even exaggerating when I say that it would likely only be a one line change to do this. Wherever they calculate the unit price, all they'd need to do is surround it in a floor/ceiling/round function and you're done.

 

yeh I am hoping it's a simple and easy way for BW to really improve this situation.