Kaggath Battlegrounds Heats - Fist of the Empire vs the Confederacy

[tausra]

These people do these things pretty often... It kind of comes with the whole, "Enemy of the Governemnt" shtick when they have things such as tractor beams. They either adapt, or get locked in irons.

 

I think it is also good to note what type of pilots tend to become pirates, chiefly the ones who rely on themselves and less on others, even if they do play for the same team. This may sound silly, but it lends the fact to the fact that if you were unable to escape with your loot as a pirate, you were not a pirate for long.

 

I've got to stop you right here. There is a reason real smugglers don't get into dailtyshoot outs with the police. Smart smugglers and pirates avoid confrontation. this reason is why there are such things as smuggling routes and secret hyperlanes. You want to live long enough to enjoy things you learn to exist off the radar. If tractor beams could so easily be dodged then Han Solo wouldn't have dropped the spice he was carrying for Jabba, he'd have pulled out one of those maneuvers and gotten away.

 

If Han Solo can't pull it off reliably, neither can your generic, nameless pirate.

[Aurbere]

If Nar Shaddaa is attacked by the Fist, it is as simple as handing the CIC space superiority. With perhaps a small bump in their ground numbers.

 

 

The Fist isn't attacking Nar Shaddaa, so that's not going to happen.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Edit: Eh nvrm.. Edited September 6, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[Aurbere]

I've got to stop you right here. There is a reason real smugglers don't get into dailtyshoot outs with the police. Smart smugglers and pirates avoid confrontation. this reason is why there are such things as smuggling routes and secret hyperlanes. You want to live long enough to enjoy things you learn to exist off the radar. If tractor beams could so easily be dodged then Han Solo wouldn't have dropped the spice he was carrying for Jabba, he'd have pulled out one of those maneuvers and gotten away.

 

If Han Solo can't pull it off reliably, neither can your generic, nameless pirate.

 

I hadn't thought of that. Good point.

 

Han Solo is a legendary pilot. In the time of the New Republic, he's practically worshiped by many pilots. They teach his exploits in history classes. He's better than your average pilot, so I think if tractor beams can catch him, they can catch lesser pilots.

[Aurbere]

Edit: Eh nvrm..

 

You gotta stop doing that.

[Wolfninjajedi]

You gotta stop doing that.

 

Don't do it that often, sides it was something irreverent anyway.

[Silenceo]

I've got to stop you right here. There is a reason real smugglers don't get into dailtyshoot outs with the police. Smart smugglers and pirates avoid confrontation. this reason is why there are such things as smuggling routes and secret hyperlanes. You want to live long enough to enjoy things you learn to exist off the radar. If tractor beams could so easily be dodged then Han Solo wouldn't have dropped the spice he was carrying for Jabba, he'd have pulled out one of those maneuvers and gotten away.

 

If Han Solo can't pull it off reliably, neither can your generic, nameless pirate.

 

If you didn't "stop right there" you would have read farther in how I described how they wouldn't even need the anti-tractor beam techniques.

 

Though I also think it should be noted that Han Solo was more of an all or nothing smuggler, where he relied on his piloting skills to evade the tractor beam locks to get his shipments from place to place. Granted, he still got boarded time to time, but nor was he willing to use some of those techniques. The Falcon was his baby, he wouldn't put a fake shell around her nor does it have proton torpedo launchers. Granted, it does have Concussion tubes, but I am not sure of their firing arcs which might be the reason he didn't use them for that escape method.

 

Besides, as I had stated in that longer post, they are actually very unlikely to even encounter the blockade because of how small it actually is. It would be child's play for their speedy vessels to merely go around since the majority of the Fist fleet is elsewhere. They could just use one of those routes, of which there are surely many because of Tatooines nature, to come in from an odd trajectory and enter the atmosphere on the other side of the planet and just skim the surface until they reach their drop points. If more of the Fist fleet was dedicated to the blockade, it could stop such things. But leaving only enough to be a *decoy* fleet...

[Beniboybling]

I would like to argue against the all-star spacers and pirates, no other army has been able to field all expert level soldiers. Every army has had to deal with variable skills in their troops, even in their elite units. The "simple" flight tricks to dodge tractor beams sound incredibly difficult, and they'd have to be otherwise people would be doing it all the time.

As I keep saying, the Black Sun as a supplier isn't allowed to field an army, only a small (I repeat small folks) number of units, which for that reason will be specialized. This applies to all suppliers and organisations.

 

In this case I wouldn't expect any more than a couple of dozen.

[Canino]

I've got to stop you right here. There is a reason real smugglers don't get into dailtyshoot outs with the police. Smart smugglers and pirates avoid confrontation. this reason is why there are such things as smuggling routes and secret hyperlanes. You want to live long enough to enjoy things you learn to exist off the radar. If tractor beams could so easily be dodged then Han Solo wouldn't have dropped the spice he was carrying for Jabba, he'd have pulled out one of those maneuvers and gotten away.

 

If Han Solo can't pull it off reliably, neither can your generic, nameless pirate.

 

Just a quick post before I go, but this is wrong. Han couldn't escape the Death Star because it is impossible to escape the Death Star's tractor beams.

 

The first Death Star was equipped with 768 tractor beam generators, enabling it to constrain ships such as the Millennium Falcon with ease.

 

The tractor beams aboard the Death Star took energy from the main reactor, giving them a constant flow of power and making it impossible for a vessel caught in it to escape. However, if one of the tractor beam's seven links to the reactor was severed, the projectors would be inactive and vessels would be allowed to escape, as Obi-Wan Kenobi was aware.

 

The number of tractor beams on the Death Star is astronomical compared to the Fist's fleet. Not only that, but with a constant flow of energy, they were impossible to escape. Not virtually impossible, but impossible.

 

We should also remember that smugglers in star wars have taken active roles in protecting their livelihood when it is threatened. The Smuggler's Colaition, and the Battle of Nar Shaddaa show this. If Tatooine or Nar Shaddaa were threatened, they would fight this. Both planets are "hives of scum and villainy" so to speak. They are lawless havens with powerful black markets and underworld connections.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Canino

[Selenial]

Just a quick post before I go, but this is wrong. Han couldn't escape the Death Star because it is impossible to escape the Death Star's tractor beams.

 

The first Death Star was equipped with 768 tractor beam generators, enabling it to constrain ships such as the Millennium Falcon with ease.

 

The tractor beams aboard the Death Star took energy from the main reactor, giving them a constant flow of power and making it impossible for a vessel caught in it to escape. However, if one of the tractor beam's seven links to the reactor was severed, the projectors would be inactive and vessels would be allowed to escape, as Obi-Wan Kenobi was aware.

 

The number of tractor beams on the Death Star is astronomical compared to the Fist's fleet. Not only that, but with a constant flow of energy, they were impossible to escape. Not virtually impossible, but impossible.

 

We should also remember that smugglers in star wars have taken active roles in protecting their livelihood when it is threatened. The Smuggler's Colaition, and the Battle of Nar Shaddaa show this. If Tatooine or Nar Shaddaa were threatened, they would fight this. Both planets are "hives of scum and villainy" so to speak. They are lawless havens with powerful black markets and underworld connections.

 

She meant when Han lost Jabba's cargo, not the Death Star run.

 

Also, lol. Two cases In the space of 5,000 years is hardly a precedent. If anything it shows that most of the time the underworld simply doesn't fight back, they didn't when the empire invaded tattooine the first time either.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Just gonna point out something, on the Battle of Nar Shadda, the only reason the smugglers/pirates even had a chance was because the Imperial Admiral(who was a moron) Winstel Greelanx, gave a copy of the battle plans to Han after accepting a bribe, so they could have a fighting chance. The fleet also had thrown the battle from what I'm reading here, so that's another factor.

 

Plus you then had two guys(Han and Mako ) formally from the Imperial Navy academy, who would know how the tactics of the Imperial fleets work(abit Makogot kicked out, but still Han would know).

 

So couple with all this, it's really no surprise as to why the smugglers/pirates won the Battle of Nar Shadda

Edited September 6, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

[LadyKulvax]

Just gonna point out something, on the Battle of Nar Shadda, the only reason the smugglers/pirates even had a chance was because the Imperial Admiral(who was a moron) Winstel Greelanx, gave a copy of the battle plans to Han after accepting a bribe, so they could have a fighting chance. The fleet also had thrown the battle from what I'm reading here, so that's another factor.

 

Plus you then had two guys(Han and Mako ) formally from the Imperial Navy academy, who would know how the tactics of the Imperial fleets work(abit Makogot kicked out, but still Han would know).

 

So couple with all this, it's really no surprise as to why the smugglers/pirates won the Battle of Nar Shadda

 

Thank you, I had remembered that but was waiting to see if I could find the source, but considering you pointed it out as well...

 

Yeh this glorious last stand of Nar Shaddaa was fixed from the start.

[Aurbere]

Besides, as I had stated in that longer post, they are actually very unlikely to even encounter the blockade because of how small it actually is. It would be child's play for their speedy vessels to merely go around since the majority of the Fist fleet is elsewhere. They could just use one of those routes, of which there are surely many because of Tatooines nature, to come in from an odd trajectory and enter the atmosphere on the other side of the planet and just skim the surface until they reach their drop points. If more of the Fist fleet was dedicated to the blockade, it could stop such things. But leaving only enough to be a *decoy* fleet...

 

If it was so easy to avoid blockades, they wouldn't have been so successful.

 

Besides, the decoy fleey is large enough to blockade the planet. That's its purpose. It's meant to be a strong presence, it just isn't as large as the trap fleet.

[Canino]

She meant when Han lost Jabba's cargo, not the Death Star run.

 

Also, lol. Two cases In the space of 5,000 years is hardly a precedent. If anything it shows that most of the time the underworld simply doesn't fight back, they didn't when the empire invaded tattooine the first time either.

 

Yeah, there was no tractor beam involved when he dumped the spice....

 

And the underworld didn't fight back because they didn't need to. Who really ruled Nar Shaddaa and Tatooine? You can't look me in the eye and say that the Empire did, because we both know that isn't true.

[Canino]

Just gonna point out something, on the Battle of Nar Shadda, the only reason the smugglers/pirates even had a chance was because the Imperial Admiral(who was a moron) Winstel Greelanx, gave a copy of the battle plans to Han after accepting a bribe, so they could have a fighting chance. The fleet also had thrown the battle from what I'm reading here, so that's another factor.

 

Plus you then had two guys(Han and Mako ) formally from the Imperial Navy academy, who would know how the tactics of the Imperial fleets work(abit Makogot kicked out, but still Han would know).

 

So couple with all this, it's really no surprise as to why the smugglers/pirates won the Battle of Nar Shadda

 

That's not my point. My point is that they were capable of rallying a sizable force to combat the Empire and had a high morale about doing so. Because in the scheme of things, it doesn't matter if you know the battle plans if you don't have an army.

 

I also don't recall saying a fleet of smugglers would destroy the Fist. I said that a fleet of spacers and my fleet could do so. That's a very big difference.

 

However, you are true. I love those books. Bria, Nar Shaddaa, Aruk and Durga... Good reads.

[Canino]

The Fist isn't attacking Nar Shaddaa, so that's not going to happen.

 

I don't know about that. I've been thinking and it could actually work.

 

What if Black Sun purposely leaks info about a large fleet assembling at Nar Shaddaa? Or reinforcements, or whatever it needs to be. SI would check into it find evidence of it (Black Sun vast network ftw), and likely send the fleet to cripple it. The the CIC pounces.

 

Obviously that is a watered down, basic outline, but it could theoretically happen.

 

I'll have to think of it more.

[Silenceo]

If it was so easy to avoid blockades, they wouldn't have been so successful.

 

Besides, the decoy fleey is large enough to blockade the planet. That's its purpose. It's meant to be a strong presence, it just isn't as large as the trap fleet.

 

If I remember correctly, both fleets lost about 1/3 of their strength in the initial space engagement. That means that of the 38 capital ships, it is likely around 12-13 lost. (unless I remembered incorrectly 25-26 capitals left)

 

Even going 50/50 then would be 12-13 if it was divided equally with one of them having the flagship. However, you say the trap fleet is larger, I assume a 30/70 split. That would be approximately 8-9 in one and 17-18 in the other, with the Flagship likely with the 15-16 so that it will be more effective. That leaves 8-9 as the blockade.

 

I am not sure what the divide its between Harrowers and Gladiators, but 8-9 ships to blockade a planet such as Tatooine? Its not terribly small, but it isn't exactly a terribly strong one either. A partial blockade, yes. But it simply is not enough ships to stop smugglers from simply going around it. If they were to try to cover all of the angles, they would be so thin, they could just be picked off by 5-10 Broadsides easily. If they are grouped together and able to easily repel attacks from CIC attacks with enough time for the bulk of the fleet to arrive, they are unable to cover most of the angles of entry.

 

In order to properly blockade a planet as rich in the black market sites as Tatooine, the Fist would need to dedicate more of its fleet, but that would make it pretty much unable to launch any offensives. You can not choose both without both of them suffering due to numbers issues.

 

This decoy fleet is a huge detriment for the 'trap' fleet, it had already started off with a 20% numbers decrease if I remembered right due to the Flagship. Then from what it had then, it lost around 30% in the battle, and then leaving 30% of the remainder at the planet. To put it simply, if you take the casualties into consideration, approximately 50% of your fleet you ever had is out trying to go on the offensive. That said, approximately 20-25% are at the planet, fitting nicely with the 1/3 or so lost in the initial battle. However, that said, it simply is not enough to blockade the entire planet.

 

As for Canino, all of his is on offensive. He began with 86 capital ships. if one third was lost then that means approximately 60 are left. The difference being that they are all in the same location, and granted in close range the Fist obliterates them, but the fact is that the CIC fleet is likely waiting for confirmed visual on the Fist fleet so they can swoop in behind them for a devastating strike. A key point being that depending on the split, the Fist fleet has significantly less point defense systems. Nor are they likely to be fooled by someone just saying, "Oh hey, I think they are attacking the CCN" because they would likely make sure they get confirmation with their own sources before committing their fleet. As for the trap fleet in the Tatooine system that isn't above the planet, I do not remember them having any tech to dampen their signals. That means that it would be child's play for Xizor to have the smugglers to send him their data, and seeing how few of the Fist fleet are in orbit, likely employ someone with skills with sensors with an adequate ship to sweep the system, and sure enough they would find them sitting on the edge of the system.

 

You are likely shaking your head right now saying he would not, but you have to remember how careful Xizor had to be to retain his power, his positions, and his prestige. He would be ever so cautious and this wouldn't be the first time he has had to play mind games with his opponents, and since he has no confirmed location of the remaining Fist fleet, he would likely place scout vessels in the orbits of their planets to report any sightings. If they still do not appear, it would not be long before he extended his search within the Tatooine system.

 

If they do manage to find the Fist Trap fleet on the edge of the system, it is very likely they could heavily exploit that. Either by obliterating those around the planet after making sure to go around the route that the bulk of the fleet is guarding. Or, by positioning themselves behind the fleet and starting round 2 with the enemy at 50% when they are at 70%. The previous engagement showed that due to their individual strengths, they were pretty well balanced, except strength wise it dips in the CIC's favor if they manage to turn the tables on this trap.

 

Granted, if they did not detect the trap and it was sprung on them, it would hurt quite a bit. However, I do not see them re-entering the system blind.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Silenceo

[Canino]

Shameless quadruple post, but I had a thought. Commando droids would make the perfect Annihilator killer. Here's why:

 

Commando droids are masters of stealth, infiltration, and assassination. Arm them with stealth belts, and they become so lethal it isn't even funny. Now, Annihilators see in infrared, which is used for thermal imagery and night vision. However, this becomes a weakness when combating metal troops in the scorching hot sun.

 

Commando droids are likely going to be as hot, or slightly under room temperature (atmospheric temperature) of the desert. This means that armed with stealth belts, they would be invisible to both Annihilators and the Sith Troops. Moving quickly, Commando droids could move within the shield of an Annihilator droid and use a grenade, blaster, or any other means to destroy it. Hell, they could just move to the back and destroy the shield generator and allow mass driver cannons to do their thing.

 

And the best things is, the CIC would know this. The Colicoids, being the loyal supporter they are, would inform the CIC of any weaknesses, and could formulate this plan with the CIC's troops in mind.

[tausra]

Have you ever put anything metal under the summer sun? The metal gets hot, hotter than the ground around it. Nothing is every totally invisible, and your surprise stealth belts (which have to be delivered first) are no exception. There will be the wind, and your droids will be exposed as gaps in whirling sand. There will be heat, and your droids will show as hotter. Stealth Field belts are great, but along with your Jammers, and other Pirate! gear, has to be delivered. You should hope the Fist are shortsighted enough to go play on the Smuggler's Moon, because every plan the Confederacy has depends on new, outside tech making it to Tatooine.

[Selenial]

I don't know about that. I've been thinking and it could actually work.

 

What if Black Sun purposely leaks info about a large fleet assembling at Nar Shaddaa? Or reinforcements, or whatever it needs to be. SI would check into it find evidence of it (Black Sun vast network ftw), and likely send the fleet to cripple it. The the CIC pounces.

 

Obviously that is a watered down, basic outline, but it could theoretically happen.

 

I'll have to think of it more.

 

You two need to stop blowing a ridiculous quote out of proportion.

 

An information network is not a spy agency that can leak information and fool the greatest intelligence agency in galactic history.

[Beniboybling]

Just gonna point out something, on the Battle of Nar Shadda, the only reason the smugglers/pirates even had a chance was because the Imperial Admiral(who was a moron) Winstel Greelanx, gave a copy of the battle plans to Han after accepting a bribe, so they could have a fighting chance. The fleet also had thrown the battle from what I'm reading here, so that's another factor.

 

Plus you then had two guys(Han and Mako ) formally from the Imperial Navy academy, who would know how the tactics of the Imperial fleets work(abit Makogot kicked out, but still Han would know).

 

So couple with all this, it's really no surprise as to why the smugglers/pirates won the Battle of Nar Shadda

Indeed as I said, the pirates were allowed to win. I don't think we can bring up this battle as a shining example of pirate bad@ssery, let alone an insta win card for any battle over that planet, as has been repeatedly attempted across the Kaggath. Best judge the outcome by its own merits, and the Fist does have the advantage.

 

Don't forget though folks that the Confederacy did manage to capture several Harrowers.

[Beniboybling]

You two need to stop blowing a ridiculous quote out of proportion.

 

An information network is not a spy agency that can leak information and fool the greatest intelligence agency in galactic history.

The quote is canon, so I don't understand why you continue to dismiss it as "ridiculous".

 

However your correct, the Black Sun possess an extensive information network, but no mention of counter intelligence or any aggressive intel networks are mentioned, I'd assume they simply don't have them, making this act impossible.

[Canino]

The quote is canon, so I don't understand why you continue to dismiss it as "ridiculous".

 

However your correct, the Black Sun possess an extensive information network, but no mention of counter intelligence or any aggressive intel networks are mentioned, I'd assume they simply don't have them, making this act impossible.

 

You do realize that you don't need to have a specific agency for intelligence to scheme, plan, and leak false information, right? Terrorists don't have intelligence agencies, yet they do this. I could call a police tip hotline right now and make up something and they'd investigate it. I could post something online. All of these things could potentially cause a police investigation.

 

Black Sun? They'd do whatever would make a statement. And if you don't think Xizor could organize a makeshift agency, then you don't know Xizor.

 

During WWII the United States send fake bodies with false information to Germany. I'm sure Black Sun could do something similar, only with real bodies.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Canino

[Silenceo]

Indeed as I said, the pirates were allowed to win. I don't think we can bring up this battle as a shining example of pirate bad@ssery, let alone an insta win card for any battle over that planet, as has been repeatedly attempted across the Kaggath. Best judge the outcome by its own merits, and the Fist does have the advantage.

 

Don't forget though folks that the Confederacy did manage to capture several Harrowers.

 

When referring to the Nar Shaddaa thing I have always referred to it as the spacers AND the CIC fleet, not just the Spacers. I even said if it was only the spacers vs the Fist fleet, they would lose. Nor did I imply it by itself was instant win, I was merely trying to show that should the Fist attack Nar Shaddaa, the CIC would have a sizable increase in their fighter craft numbers due to the locals rallying to their banner so to speak. I also never claimed the spacers were "ace" pilots, merely the common pirates, bounty hunters, smugglers, ect. They do not even need to do much, mostly distract the Fist fighters.

 

As for the capturing several harrowers, I had forgotten about that...

 

By chance can you remind me what the exact fleet numbers are as they currently stand? Not sure what post that was on or I would simply go look at it there.

[Canino]

Have you ever put anything metal under the summer sun? The metal gets hot, hotter than the ground around it. Nothing is every totally invisible, and your surprise stealth belts (which have to be delivered first) are no exception. There will be the wind, and your droids will be exposed as gaps in whirling sand. There will be heat, and your droids will show as hotter. Stealth Field belts are great, but along with your Jammers, and other Pirate! gear, has to be delivered. You should hope the Fist are shortsighted enough to go play on the Smuggler's Moon, because every plan the Confederacy has depends on new, outside tech making it to Tatooine.

Yet these are electronics. They would have some sort of cooling system. If they were simply prices of metal they would never be capable of functioning And electronics without some form of cooling? It would last 1 minute doing what these droids do. That's why they would be under. Hot? Yes. But not as hot as you describe.

 

And deserts do not have roaring wind everyday. Let's be serious now.

 

Yes, my plans do need tech to come on the planet. Tell me something I don't know. But really, that's what I need. As you can see, I don't have much to work with, considering the Fist's knowledge of my forces. But I firmly believe that tech will flow easily to the planet, as will reinforcements.