Broken Talent system punishes team players.

[XisscVekno]

If a tank build can be played to match or out perform a DPS build, then the class is fundamentally flawed, there would be no reason to have a marauder spec if a juggernaut can equal it's ability.

 

Even if you wanted to take in the idea that Swtor intended that tanking and healing classes could be on par with the pure DPS, then those who rolled a Marauder or a Sentinel totally got screwed over. That's the whole reason I'm upset, if I knew a Tank class was suppose to match or equal a Sentinel, then I would of picked Guardian and been overpowered in comparison.

 

Just the idea of encouraging broken, overpowered and underpowered class concepts spells horrible game design for the long term of the game. And you're defending this, just because you're an overpowered class combination? Are you aware that the game is based on more than just you and me, and there are many other's who are experiences the same issues?

 

A tank build will never ever out DPS a equally skilled and properly spec'd marauder/Sentinal. a Guardian/Juggernaut spec'd properly in DPS trees will do the same DPS.

[XisscVekno]

You have no clue if this statement is true or not.

 

6 months of playing nothing but SW/JK's in beta and playing one now. the difference through every build was no greater than 5% dps gain/lose between DPS AC's and Tank/DPS AC's

[Excedrin]

6 months of playing nothing but SW/JK's in beta and playing one now. the difference through every build was no greater than 5% dps gain/lose between DPS AC's and Tank/DPS AC's

 

This information is not available in game. Your evaluation is not based upon objective/credible criteria. Even if you were to evaluate the theoretical DPS and find that it was a rough 5% difference, you would not truly be certain without real data from multiple parses of equally geared and properly skilled players.

 

Until you can tell me how you know this (and believe me, I'm interested) I will say again:

 

You have no clue if this statement is true or not.* Likewise, the OP does not have a clue if their statement is true or not. We are effectively in the dark.

 

 

* Subject to change based on changing data.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Excedrin

[XisscVekno]

This information is not available in game. Your evaluation is not based upon objective/credible criteria. Even if you were to evaluate the theoretical DPS and find that it was a rough 5% difference, you would not truly be certain without real data from multiple parses of equally geared and properly skilled players.

 

Until you can tell me how you know this (and believe me, I'm interested) I will say again:

 

You have no clue if this statement is true or not.*

 

 

* Subject to change based on changing data.

 

A LOT OF WORK. every build I made two toons, one when Jugg, one went Mara. I then made one of them a Synthweave crafter and made them identical suits of armor (since Jugg and Mara both can wear medium I put the Jugg in medium to try and rule out as many variables as possible). Then yes I know the combat log was never enabled. But if you watch your screen it tells you what each ability does for dam (this is the long part) I wrote down each ability I used in my rotation with the dam amount up to 20 (100 would have been more accurate but I'm not that patient) and did the math from there. it cam out to roughly 5% every time in each build. Sometimes it was even some times less than 5%. but roughly the same.

 

Edit: I'm dyslexic so takes me awhile to proof read sometimes.

 

Also I don't remember the combat log being there but it might have been in previous builds. regardless you don't need a parser to calculate over DPS and compare them as long as you can see some dam number.

Edited December 24, 2011 by XisscVekno

[xJudgex]

Naus is dead wrong.

 

A Tank specced Guardian WILL NOT do the same DPS as a Sentinel, only a DPS specced Guardian will...which is fine and solid game design.

 

If your argument is that there should be some sort of retarded "hybrid tax" just because a Guardian CAN spec tank and a Sentinel can't well then you are wrong and have been proven so definitively by WoW. This is even more relevant in this game due to there being no Dual Speccing option.

 

The statement "there is no reason to roll a pure DPS class without a tax on hybrid specs" has been shown to be demonstrably FALSE. All you need do is look at WoW, where Mages and Rogues are being played all the time and doing very well despite there being no hybrid tax at all.

 

So yeah...try again.

[Vegetian]

You have no clue if this statement is true or not.

 

Thats not entirely accurate. In previous builds in beta there was a combat log where you could measure dps in comparitive classes. This was taken out when the nov build released, but after class adjustments were done, for the most part. Besides, technically you could measure both by the listed base/bonus damages on the character sheet, or actually testing against an npc (the floating damage) and judge that way. So there's various ways to confirm that.

 

Provided thier using identical armor sets/weapons etc of course, it can be judged by various ways, in multiple settings.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Vegetian

[Cadjin]

If a tank build can be played to match or out perform a DPS build, then the class is fundamentally flawed, there would be no reason to have a marauder spec if a juggernaut can equal it's ability.

 

Even if you wanted to take in the idea that Swtor intended that tanking and healing classes could be on par with the pure DPS, then those who rolled a Marauder or a Sentinel totally got screwed over. That's the whole reason I'm upset, if I knew a Tank class was suppose to match or equal a Sentinel, then I would of picked Guardian and been overpowered in comparison.

 

Just the idea of encouraging broken, overpowered and underpowered class concepts spells horrible game design for the long term of the game. And you're defending this, just because you're an overpowered class combination? Are you aware that the game is based on more than just you and me, and there are many other's who are experiences the same issues?

 

 

Here's the difference between Sentinels and Guardians (and their Sith counterparts): Sentinels bring higher burst damage to the table. Guardians bring more constant DPS to the table. Two completely different types of play style, and a Sentinel should ALWAYS bring more damage to the table than a Guardian.

 

I'm currently playing a Guardian full tank spec and I do plenty of damage to solo, and I always see people asking for tanks for heroics and flashpoints on my server (The Swiftsure).

 

In regards to your original topic post, the game encourages flexibility in play style, not discourages class types. I am so absolutely happy that I can play a tank and still be able to do some very decent damage so I'm not forced to be dependent upon other people 100% of the time.

 

I do like to group, but there are times when just running around and being able to be successful in PvE while not having it be extremely difficult is very rewarding. But no matter how much I go into an offense tree, I will never do better DPS than a Sentinel. Which is fine, because Guardians are a tank class. Heavy armor classes should not be pumping out the same insane DPS as a class designed with high DPS and lower armor in mind. That would be absolutely backwards. The good thing is, I still do plenty of damage to get through the game which seems to me that it is working as intended.

 

If you wanted to play a hybrid DPS/tank, then you should have picked a Guardian and spent your skill points accordingly. If you want to be a full on high burst DPS and destroy stuff with lower survivability, then play a Sentinel. It's a matter of risk/reward.

 

I would much rather take a Sentinel over a Guardian built for offense to fill a DPS slot in a group. Sentinels pack a very large, extra punch that Guardians don't, but while Guardians don't front load their damage, they have very good sustained DPS so they can fill that role as necessary. Sentinels can fill an off tank role, but they're soft so they can't do so for long without a large amount of healing.

 

And for the issue of dual-speccing advanced classes, that is pretty silly because it would effectively take 8 classes and reduce it down to 4. A MMO needs a little more variety than that to keep people interested. Also, it means that everyone could just make one of every class on one server, which seems counterproductive to the whole decision making factor of this game. Hopefully the Legacy system will allow for further specialized class advancement to remedy the issue that people are having with limited class roles.

[Bakarn]

I play a Guardian who is DPS specced and I've tanked every instance I've been in. I don't miss that much in the way of cooldowns atm, but I imagine that will get worse the higher level I am.

 

I intend on getting defense gear anyway.

 

Based purely on looking at the talent trees, I'd say a tank specced Guardian in DPS gear is probably at around 70% of a DPS specced Guardian in DPS gear. I'd also say the opposite is true in terms of tanking. Not enough to make the situation utterly fluid (though talent choices do help a lot) but certainly enough that an unused Guardian can DPS or tank regardless.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Bakarn

[BeeblesTV]

I would like a dual spec.

 

I love to DPS, but healers are in demand so I am a combat medic. Sometimes I used to switch back to DPS for soloing, then to healer to help guildmates out.

 

Now it costs a ton of credits to swap.

 

Also there are PvP talents within the combat medic tree that serve no purpose in PvE, that I would like to have for PvP.

 

Some may say I want everything, but its not like they have to make it switchable anywhere like WoW does, maybe make you return to the fleet and visit the guy to swap to your dual spec. Or your ship, or something.

[Vegetian]

Good point in regard to the legacy system. Perhaps we will see something come about with that, hopefully so. Excellent post to on the exact nature of the respective classes, couldn't have said it better myself.

[Baneberry]

The op is completely right. there is no reason for anyone to go marauder/sent Advance class when the Jug/Guard advance class can do just as much dps in dps spec and THEN RESPEC AND TANK.

 

You can say play style difference, personal preference, aesthetics all you want, but as a raid leader, if I have to choose between the pure dps class or the class that can do the same amount of dps on single tank fights and then off tank the multi tank fights, i'm going to give the spot to the dps/tank class.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Baneberry

[xJudgex]

The op is completely right. there is no reason for anyone to go marauder/sent Advance class when the Jug/Guard advance class can do just as much dps in dps spec and THEN RESPEC AND TANK.

 

You can say play style difference, personal preference, aesthetics all you want, but as a raid leader, if I have to choose between the pure dps class or the class that can do the same amount of dps on single tank fights and then off tank the multi tank fights, i'm going to give the spot to the dps/tank class.

 

Proven definitively wrong by WoW...next please.

[Baneberry]

Proven definitively wrong by WoW...next please.

 

And hows that?

 

Lets see. If i had the choice between a 30k dps rogue or a 30k dps druid who has a tank off spec, gosh, I wonder who I should bring to raids??

[xJudgex]

You're going to bring the best player...regardless of class or spec, which is entirely the point. Not to mention this is even less of an issue, and it's not one in WoW, here...since there IS NO Dual Speccing option and changing your talents costs a not insignificant amount of credits to be doing it all the time.

 

Bottom line...actual raids in WoW do not do what you are claiming. And actual data and evidence does not support your claim either.

 

You are wrong.

 

Next please...

[Darkeus]

Why don't you take a few minutes to actually read his thread, then edit your post into something constructive

 

And why don't you stop trolling and find something else to do with your time.

 

Do you actually play this game or did you just buy to grief the forums for a month.... SMH.

 

Pathetic.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Darkeus

[Baneberry]

You're going to bring the best player...regardless of class or spec, which is entirely the point.

 

Wrong... he could be the worlds #1 rogue, but that is not going to help him get into my raid when the slot i have available is for someone who can tank some fights and dps some fights ESPESIALY when the hybrid tank/dps class can do just as much damage as the rogue.

 

Not to mention this is even less of an issue, and it's not one in WoW, here...since there IS NO Dual Speccing option and changing your talents costs a not insignificant amount of credits to be doing it all the time.

 

Your right, the fact that there is no dual spec is going to make raiding needlessly more time consuming due to the fact that if someone was gonna respec they would have to run to the fleet and run back to the raid. I guess i will just have to keep a second full time tank in my raids, and guess what, that wont be a sent/marauder!!

 

Bottom line...actual raids in WoW do not do what you are claiming. And actual data and evidence does not support your claim either.

 

Next please...

 

Your wrong. raid leaders have to pick and choose their raid comp in wow because the most challenging heroics in the history of wow are in dragon soul. Utility counts for a lot, and sent/marauders don't have anything that jugs/Guards don't.

[BladedEdge]

I doubt this is ever going to be changed for the best. Your either looking at adding a potential role to the current 'can only be DPS regardless of skill-tree picked' which would mean your Jedi Knight or etc would have to either be a dps/tank or a dps/healer..as healer is the only role that makes sense to add since they can already choose a line that lets them DPS or Tank.

 

Or you make a point of saying that No, there will never be dual-specs either. Which I think defeats a point the OP made of the game not allowing for people to play what is needed. (ala Be a tank for a raid, go back to DPS when thats needed.

 

While we are likely to get dual-specs sometime soonish, there is clearly a not much to gain for a class who doesn't have another role-option (tank, dps, healer) to switch/dual spec into.

 

That said..if I am going to play such a character..I wanna kill people using 2 light sabers, and I do not want to have to tank/heal. I want to be DPS, I -only- want to play DPS, and that's just fine with me. WoW clearly has classes that play out just like this..why is there being a single advanced path for both sides that does too such a bad-thing? If you want versatility, you know the path to choose. If you have a clear other reason to play the pure DPS class (ala the reasons I just listed for example) then you can. I just don't see this as a bad thing.

[Meiu]

If a tank build can be played to match or out perform a DPS build, then the class is fundamentally flawed, there would be no reason to have a marauder spec if a juggernaut can equal it's ability.

 

Even if you wanted to take in the idea that Swtor intended that tanking and healing classes could be on par with the pure DPS, then those who rolled a Marauder or a Sentinel totally got screwed over. That's the whole reason I'm upset, if I knew a Tank class was suppose to match or equal a Sentinel, then I would of picked Guardian and been overpowered in comparison.

 

Just the idea of encouraging broken, overpowered and underpowered class concepts spells horrible game design for the long term of the game. And you're defending this, just because you're an overpowered class combination? Are you aware that the game is based on more than just you and me, and there are many other's who are experiences the same issues?

 

You seem to be misinformed.

 

A marauder has more tools to help its dps compared to a jugg. Tank juggs dont do as much dmg as dps marauders. dps juggs and marauders do the same damage. a marauder has more options for dps unlike jugg who could at some point go up against a boss who has mechanics that wont let him dps while a marauder has respec to a nother tree to maximize their dmg on the specific fight. that is the marauders advantage for dps.

 

so yes they cant tank, but they can effectively spec in a way to be good at dpsing all possible types of fights you will have in an mmo while a jugg cannot. he will always require a scenario where facetime with boss is maximized while a marauder wouldnt be phased by that problem.

 

your paranoia is unfounded. fyi a jugg specced dps to do the same dmg as a marauder will have less survivability than a marauder if you actually compared their abilities and cooldowns.

 

EDIT: marauder also has extremely powerful raid buffs no other classes have in the game.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Meiu

[XisscVekno]

They ahve to pick and choose raid comp in any game. Just because a game has mods that raid for you doesn't make the more special and challenging.

 

as an ex raid leader I know for a fact it's not that simple. you have to look at buffs, utility, player you want in each role, ect. Saying a druid brings more than a rogue so why bring the rogue isn't a 100% true. This game simplifies it between the Sent/Mara and Guard/Jug with they have the same buffs. But mara/Sent do have something the other doesn't... Burst and big burst if done right. And when it comes down to the wire of killing the boss in the final burn phase Burst>>>>Utility any day of the week.

[Cadjin]

Good point in regard to the legacy system. Perhaps we will see something come about with that, hopefully so. Excellent post to on the exact nature of the respective classes, couldn't have said it better myself.

 

Thanks!

 

Yes, I'm really looking forward to seeing what they do with the Legacy system. There is such a large amount of potential there and I would love to see Bioware take full advantage of it without breaking the game.

[xJudgex]

Wrong... he could be the worlds #1 rogue, but that is not going to help him get into my raid when the slot i have available is for someone who can tank some fights and dps some fights ESPESIALY when the hybrid tank/dps class can do just as much damage as the rogue.

 

 

 

Your right, the fact that there is no dual spec is going to make raiding needlessly more time consuming due to the fact that if someone was gonna respec they would have to run to the fleet and run back to the raid. I guess i will just have to keep a second full time tank in my raids, and guess what, that wont be a sent/marauder!!

 

 

 

Your wrong. raid leaders have to pick and choose their raid comp in wow because the most challenging heroics in the history of wow are in dragon soul. Utility counts for a lot, and sent/marauders don't have anything that jugs/Guards don't.

 

1) You're going to bring that rogue if he's #1 in the world and drop your lowest performing dps'er...so no, you're wrong there. Also, point to me where you have a single fight anywhere in recent WoW that requires more than two tanks (in a ten man), that would require you to bring a DPS/Tank hybrid over and above your normal tanks for the instance run?

 

2) You're probably not going to have to have people respec very much in this game is the point, and you should always have a second fulltime tank either in the raid or ready to be.

 

3) Evidence just DOES NOT support your rather ridiculous claims. Pure DPS classes ARE NOT being phased out or asked to sit in favor of classes with multiple roles despite similar DPS ceilings, it's just not occurring. So unless you can demonstrate that it in fact is, you're completely wrong.

 

But I'll save you the trouble...it's not.

 

NEXT PLEASE...

[Dekadez]

as an ex raid leader I know for a fact it's not that simple. you have to look at buffs, utility, player you want in each role, ect. Saying a druid brings more than a rogue so why bring the rogue isn't a 100% true..

 

Yet it is true to some extent. Dual Specs defeat the purpose of the pure DPS class in a game where everything is supposed to be 100% balanced. Blizzard has alleviated this by introducing encounters where the pure DPS classes can outperform the hybrids due to their mechanics, despite theoretically doing similar DPS.

 

Yet I don't see how the Sent/Mara buffs, which are relatively strong or helpful, outperform the option of having a DPS that can do similar DPS, while being able to Tank when the opportunity, or need, arises.

 

I play my Sentinel because I like the class, the way he plays, the style. But after a couple of months, even that wears off. Then you want to participate in endgame content, and the statistics of your class come into play. Raidleaders will simply have to decide if that DPS who can respec to Heal/Tank when needed, that flexibility, is worth more or less than a buff from a class who does similar, if not entirely equal, DPS. If I'm calling the shots in an MMO that has no PTR to test every encounter on, knowing tactics of each boss by heart before they go live, then I'll take the hybrid because of their flexibility to change roles when you need to make tactical raid adjustments.

 

I don't really mind dual spec, but then I'd like to see a hybrid tax, encounters tailored to pure DPS playstyles or Bioware introducing only hybrid classes, aka. give the Sentinels a healing tree, and the Gunslinger a tanking tree, how preposterous it may sound.

 

To the above poster and other trolls: Mind the use of the word 'theoretically'. We're talking about players with the same gear, same skillset, same performance. Not about a Sentinel who knows what he's doing and a Hybrid who is drooling over his keyboard.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Dekadez

[boobaffet]

guardian dps ~ sentinel dps

[Psykhe]

It means that you're right, because there is no reason WHATSOEVER to roll a Sentinel/Marauder

 

Except a) wanting to dual wield light sabers and b) having no interest whatsoever to tank.

 

That still applies to a lot of people.

[Dekadez]

Except a) wanting to dual wield light sabers and b) having no interest whatsoever to tank.

 

That still applies to a lot of people.

 

But is irrelevant in endgame raid composition. You're not bringing Bob because he likes to dual wield or because James doesn't want to tank.