Broken Talent system punishes team players.

[Nausgaming]

This game encourages bad game play and anti-social player behavior.

 

I rolled a Jedi Knight with the idea of being a hybrid class that can help my friends as either a tank or strong dps. Upon reaching level 10, I am instantly confronted with a depressing truth. This game discourages solid tanks and healers. Anyone who has played an MMO seriously and not just screwing around pretending like they're a king riding a sparkle pony knows that tanks, healers and "Quality" dps build the competitive MMO.

 

In short, we are left with a sad choice. I can;

*Spec Guardian tank and be permanently crippled as a DPS.

*Spec Sentinel a pure DPS and never be able to tank.

And in the odd situation that a Guardian DPS can out perform an equally skilled and equally geared Sentinel DPS, then the game is fundamentally flawed, and there would be no reason for a sentinel class to even exist.

Instead of trying to encourage social unity and teamwork, the game forces you with a simple choice. Either choose a specific, limiting role, and play your class correctly, or force a specified class to perform a role it's not designed to perform at a lower quality.

 

So what's the answer? Do you guys want a game with global, social repercussions for making a permanent Spec/role choice, or would you actually like to enjoy playing a game with you friends? If the game is designed to punish social and cooperative behavior, then the game is fundamentally flawed as an engaging social experience, and only serves to cause reason to make the experience more difficult and discouraging.

 

EA isn't dumping millions into this to let a small minority of anti-social, solo-based gamers cry about choices that don't affect them. Because we all know too well what choices are. EA knows that we know what choices are, which is why I expect them to fix this issue and let people have fun enjoying hybrid classes instead of punishing them.

[Mannic]

My suggestion would be for BW to allow dual-speccing. It doesn't have to be like Rift, but being able to switch between a DPS spec and a healing spec on my BH would be welcome.

[XisscVekno]

There is only like 5% difference if that between Sent/Mara DPS and Jugg/Guard if specc'd properly and played well.

[KetMalice]

This game encourages bad game play and anti-social player behavior.

 

I rolled a Jedi Knight with the idea of being a hybrid class that can help my friends as either a tank or strong dps. Upon reaching level 10, I am instantly confronted with a depressing truth. This game discourages solid tanks and healers. Anyone who has played an MMO seriously and not just screwing around pretending like they're a king riding a sparkle pony knows that tanks, healers and "Quality" dps build the competitive MMO.

 

In short, we are left with a sad choice. I can;

*Spec Guardian tank and be permanently crippled as a DPS.

*Spec Sentinel a pure DPS and never be able to tank.

And in the odd situation that a Guardian DPS can out perform an equally skilled and equally geared Sentinel DPS, then the game is fundamentally flawed, and there would be no reason for a sentinel class to even exist.

Instead of trying to encourage social unity and teamwork, the game forces you with a simple choice. Either choose a specific, limiting role, and play your class correctly, or force a specified class to perform a role it's not designed to perform at a lower quality.

 

So what's the answer? Do you guys want a game with global, social repercussions for making a permanent Spec/role choice, or would you actually like to enjoy playing a game with you friends? If the game is designed to punish social and cooperative behavior, then the game is fundamentally flawed as an engaging social experience, and only serves to cause reason to make the experience more difficult and discouraging.

 

EA isn't dumping millions into this to let a small minority of anti-social, solo-based gamers cry about choices that don't affect them. Because we all know too well what choices are. EA knows that we know what choices are, which is why I expect them to fix this issue and let people have fun enjoying hybrid classes instead of punishing them.

 

Uhh hey homie. I know you typed a lot but for no reason.

 

So here it is cuz. If you hybrid specced into 2 trees.

 

GUESS WHAT!?!?! You would still DPS subpar, and you would tank subpar.....logic is hard.

[Shadysketchy]

You're half-wrong, half-right

 

TOR doesn't have hybrid taxes, so Guardian/Juggernaught's DPS are tuned/balanced to do the same Damage Output as the Sentinel/Marauder trees (there might be slight descepancies at launch, but it's still aimed at that balance)

 

This means that you're wrong, because you'll still be dealing the same, standardized DPS, as a Guardian/Juggernaught DPS

 

It means that you're right, because there is no reason WHATSOEVER to roll a Sentinel/Marauder

[Shadysketchy]

Uhh hey homie. I know you typed a lot but for no reason.

 

So here it is cuz. If you hybrid specced into 2 trees.

 

GUESS WHAT!?!?! You would still DPS subpar, and you would tank subpar.....logic is hard.

 

Why don't you take a few minutes to actually read his thread, then edit your post into something constructive

[lunabaguna]

Nope, playing a sith jugg (guardian mirror) and I do great dps. The guardian has a dps tree, a tank tree, and a better dps tree. Think of the choice at 10 as a choice between a rogue and warrior in wow. The guardian in vengeance spec can pump out fury warrior type dps. I'm even leveling tank speced, I'm a powerhouse in pvp, takes 5-6 players to down me and they pound on me for over 40 secs with all my CDs and Ccs. I never have trouble downing content 3-4 levels above me in pve. There are also 3 tank classes on each side.

[Xiankai]

Isn't dual spec'ing suppose to be a post launch feature?

[Febibi]

This game encourages bad game play and anti-social player behavior.

 

I rolled a Jedi Knight with the idea of being a hybrid class that can help my friends as either a tank or strong dps. Upon reaching level 10, I am instantly confronted with a depressing truth. This game discourages solid tanks and healers. Anyone who has played an MMO seriously and not just screwing around pretending like they're a king riding a sparkle pony knows that tanks, healers and "Quality" dps build the competitive MMO.

 

In short, we are left with a sad choice. I can;

*Spec Guardian tank and be permanently crippled as a DPS.

*Spec Sentinel a pure DPS and never be able to tank.

And in the odd situation that a Guardian DPS can out perform an equally skilled and equally geared Sentinel DPS, then the game is fundamentally flawed, and there would be no reason for a sentinel class to even exist.

Instead of trying to encourage social unity and teamwork, the game forces you with a simple choice. Either choose a specific, limiting role, and play your class correctly, or force a specified class to perform a role it's not designed to perform at a lower quality.

 

So what's the answer? Do you guys want a game with global, social repercussions for making a permanent Spec/role choice, or would you actually like to enjoy playing a game with you friends? If the game is designed to punish social and cooperative behavior, then the game is fundamentally flawed as an engaging social experience, and only serves to cause reason to make the experience more difficult and discouraging.

 

EA isn't dumping millions into this to let a small minority of anti-social, solo-based gamers cry about choices that don't affect them. Because we all know too well what choices are. EA knows that we know what choices are, which is why I expect them to fix this issue and let people have fun enjoying hybrid classes instead of punishing them.

 

well if they do a dungeon finder... then its anti social.... for now its still preety social

 

jerks cant get help so you have to be kind which is godo for a community even the 50's help anyoen who asks decent questions with help

[TeejayMac]

You're half-wrong, half-right

 

TOR doesn't have hybrid taxes, so Guardian/Juggernaught's DPS are tuned/balanced to do the same Damage Output as the Sentinel/Marauder trees (there might be slight descepancies at launch, but it's still aimed at that balance)

 

This means that you're wrong, because you'll still be dealing the same, standardized DPS, as a Guardian/Juggernaught DPS

 

It means that you're right, because there is no reason WHATSOEVER to roll a Sentinel/Marauder

 

Is there a reason to role a mage or rogue on WoW? Yeah, some people enjoy that playstyle. If you like the way a marauder plays then play one. You pry don't because it's probably too hard for you to manage both rage and fury...but I digress.

 

Pick a Juggernaut(or Jedi equivalent) if you want to be able to tank. If you don't want to tank then you can go either way.

 

PS. Bounty Hunters are more fun as a tank anyway.

[Cascade]

In short, we are left with a sad choice. I can;

*Spec Guardian tank and be permanently crippled as a DPS.

*Spec Sentinel a pure DPS and never be able to tank.

And in the odd situation that a Guardian DPS can out perform an equally skilled and equally geared Sentinel DPS, then the game is fundamentally flawed, and there would be no reason for a sentinel class to even exist.

 

Instead of trying to encourage social unity and teamwork, the game forces you with a simple choice. Either choose a specific, limiting role, and play your class correctly, or force a specified class to perform a role it's not designed to perform at a lower quality.

 

This is a pretty big design issue trenched in so deep into the game that we can't really expect to change. From a performance standpoint, there is actually no reasons for starting Sentinels or Marauders and I guess this is the same with other classes also.

 

If you could fill two roles (tank / dps) with a Juggernaut, why on earth would you want to roll a pure dps AC with 3 subpar DPS only options? Starting a Sentinel / Marauder is now degraded into the realm of cosmetic decisions, eg. you want to dual wield two sabers, instead of one or you want to play the Sentinel / Marauder quest chain.

 

At first, this problem will not be all that visible: it will only start to show when the endgame gets hold of the game and Sentinels / Marauders will find themselves more and more excluded from OPs because of them lacking the numbers and/or utility.

[Cheyko]

I agree completely that they should put Dual spec into the game, and I honestly don't know why it isn't yet... people were bringing up the topic months ago while the game was in beta testing, with most of the hardcore gamers voting for dual spec. I also think re-specing should be cheaper and more cost efficient, optimizing a class for any role will be a pain in the *** with extremely expensive re-specs especially with no damage/healing meters out yet.

 

Now I know the game is literally brand spanking new, so I don't have any complaints. I'm not sure if bioware will green light addons, but I can't see why they wouldn't, especially after how much money they poured into the game. I'm just of the opinion that fans alone cannot keep the game afloat against the competition if hardcore gamers and more casual players aren't tended to, and addons appeal to both groups.

 

I also don't see why any of these issues have such a huge following of people who absolutely loath the ideas. Don't want addons? Don't install them. Don't want to deal with damage/healing meters? Don't get into harder end game content where things like that help immensely in the competitive world. Stick to your RP servers and be happy that you have a game so wonderful to RP and be immersed in. Just don't despise the fact that this is a game, and there are gamers out there who want to play the game for the game and not for Star Wars; sorry. <3 (And responding with anything about how the non-star wars fans/purely gamers can go jump off a bridge and play a different game is insanely childish. That would destroy this game's player base and bioware would lose more money than they put into the game.)

 

If you don't agree with re-spec/dual spec/whatever spec then don't do it. Pretend it doesn't exist, they don't even have to change dialog for it to be included in the game. Just give the option to people who want it, and those of you who loath it can live on pretending it doesn't exist or simply choosing not to use it. Just because you hate Chinese food doesn't mean you have to forbid the Chinese from living in the states, it just means you don't eat Chinese food. Same thing with every other addon out there.

 

Same thing goes for every other addon/addition to the game out there you don't like. As well as LFG/LFR (which I would like in the game, by the way). I don't think LFG/LFR destroyed that game that shall not be named, I just think the community got larger and thus... according to logic/mathematics... the ratio of asses to decent people simply got bigger. There were more asses because there were literally more jerks that joined the game because a ton more people joined the game, including a LARGE handful of idiots that would turn even the nicest person sour. (After explaining the same thing to a few tens of people who all can't STAY OUT OF THE FIRE you eventually just get sick of explaining it.)

 

In short, I am a huge believer in playing any game the way you want to play it; especially if you're paying $15 a month for it. I am also an even larger supporter of letting everyone else play the game they want to. If you don't want addons, don't use them. If you don't want dual spec, don't use it. If you don't want to respec, don't do it.

 

The only ones being forced to do anything here are the people who want to respec for a reasonable fee and can't (I've been told that it stacks infinitely to re-spec, which is ludicrous, but I haven't confirmed it in-game myself), people who want to dual spec and can't (people who want to be the most efficient tank, dps, healer, pvp-er, pve-er whatever), and people who want addons like meters and can't. Giving those people those things doesn't force anyone who doesn't want them to use them. Thus, it's a win win.

 

Note: I'm not entirely sure if we don't have addons yet because the game is just new (understandable and a huge duh) or if bioware simply hasn't allowed them yet. I don't know, so I'm just throwing it in there.

[Cheyko]

Edit to last post I made: My husband pointed out my addons point was too broad; I don't mean game changing addons like DBM or anything like that, I mean things like damage/healing meters and RP addons (like My Role Play and other profile editors.) and little things like that. Also, UI mods. I don't think there is anything game changing about being able to change where my bars are D=

[JimG]

Guess no one has been able to successfully complete a heroic, flashpoint, operation, etc. because there is no dual spec. A dual spec is not needed. Sure, it would make the game easier and that's really all you're asking for here....make the game easier for you. Frankly, the tank/healer/dps set-up is just something that people have become used to. I was on a group for a flashpoint with 4 dps toons and we handled it just fine. We just had to kill stuff faster and use some medpacs. Heaven forbid that people actually have to use strategy to win a battle instead of tank stands there and spams taunts, healer stands there and spams heals, dps stands there and spams attacks. Some people are so dependent on tanks and healers as a crutch for bad or lazy gameplay. I've seen some people whining about LFG tools and whatever else related to finding groups, but haven't had the slightest problem finding PUGs quickly for heroics and flashpoints and regular quests. Usually doesn't take more than a few minutes and requires only the slightest amount of effort. People are just lazy and want the entire game spoonfed to them.

[Vegetian]

There is only like 5% difference if that between Sent/Mara DPS and Jugg/Guard if specc'd properly and played well.

 

This.

 

If people actually took time to learn the skills, and stat modifiers from various gear, then maybe you'd understand. Which is why I like my "orange" gear much better...allows me to be versitle when building a toon, since I can combine different modifiers to make a good build. But you also need a good rotation and to understand your skills. My 50 jugg/immortal build was such, I ate maraduers for lunch.

 

Point is..actually level your toon and experiement with different things. Then if it's not working, then come and post. Don't hit level 12 and decide your going to post. You haven't even reached the point where you start getting into the "cream" skills of the class. (assuming your above level 10, but below 20, in relation to what I deduced from your post). That's somewhat of a flawed way to look at things, only seeing part of the picture before witnessing the entire thing.

[Zhiroc]

Anyone who has played an MMO seriously and not just screwing around pretending like they're a king riding a sparkle pony knows that tanks, healers and "Quality" dps build the competitive MMO.

 

Frankly, I'm not playing this game because I want a competitive MMO. I'm playing for my own personal fun, and primarily for solo'ing. I have just about zero interest in PvP, and from what I read about the attitudes of people demanding perfection in raids, I have not much interest there either.

[Vegetian]

In regard to social unity and teamwork. Honestly, other than SWG, I haven't encountered a game that hasnt had a staple setting for certain classes. Like lotro...sure you could DPS as a tank, but you wouldn't be nearly as effective as a champion or hunter, or as you would be for a tank. It's the same case here.

 

I run an SI. Now i've chosen Lighting tree for my SI, but I still can use heals for heroic quests. Sure...I don't have the perks that the healing tree will get, but if I focus on my "power" stat I can pop off some nice heals (including doing additional bonus and base damage because of the "power" stat). Does it limit my role within the group by forcing me to be anti-social because I'm only DPS (which is what the lighting tree is)? Nope, not at all. I still role as primary healer for group quests, or backup healer/dps.

 

So while your point maybe valid in some cases, it's not in all.

[Nausgaming]

If people actually took time to learn the skills, and stat modifiers from various gear, then maybe you'd understand. Which is why I like my "orange" gear much better...allows me to be versitle when building a toon, since I can combine different modifiers to make a good build. But you also need a good rotation and to understand your skills. My 50 jugg/immortal build was such, I ate maraduers for lunch.

 

If a tank build can be played to match or out perform a DPS build, then the class is fundamentally flawed, there would be no reason to have a marauder spec if a juggernaut can equal it's ability.

 

Even if you wanted to take in the idea that Swtor intended that tanking and healing classes could be on par with the pure DPS, then those who rolled a Marauder or a Sentinel totally got screwed over. That's the whole reason I'm upset, if I knew a Tank class was suppose to match or equal a Sentinel, then I would of picked Guardian and been overpowered in comparison.

 

Just the idea of encouraging broken, overpowered and underpowered class concepts spells horrible game design for the long term of the game. And you're defending this, just because you're an overpowered class combination? Are you aware that the game is based on more than just you and me, and there are many other's who are experiences the same issues?

[Dekadez]

So you're saying that any MMO that does not allow people to perform multiple roles, is in effect a broken MMO encouraging bad behaviour?

 

First MMO lad?

[Cheyko]

I don't think Naus is at all wrong for wanting something in a game he's paying to play, just like no one else is wrong for wanting what they want in a game. My entire point though is that we (people who want dual spec) can have dual spec without it hurting or getting in the way of anyone who doesn't want dual spec. Don't want to dual spec? Don't use it, but the people who want it will outweigh the people who claim their games would be ruined by allowing it.

 

If you're really just against it because it gives too many options and really believe adding it would prevent anyone from truly optimizing their class then I think this is just a wrong view I don't agree with. Allowing someone to dual spec would give them the opportunity to learn their class that much better by allowing them to easily experiment on what works best for them in what position; whether it be tanking vs dps, healing vs dps, or pvp vs pve it doesn't matter. It's their money and their game time to do with as they want.

 

Also, again, what does anyone else care if it makes the game 'easier' for them and they are just being lazy? It's their right to do that with the game if they so want, and honestly I'm praying for a dual spec myself. If you don't want to make the game 'easier' for yourself then DON'T use the feature. The game would NOT force you to have a dual spec, that's just ridiculous.

[Vegetian]

If a tank build can be played to match or out perform a DPS build, then the class is fundamentally flawed, there would be no reason to have a marauder spec if a juggernaut can equal it's ability.

 

Even if you wanted to take in the idea that Swtor intended that tanking and healing classes could be on par with the pure DPS, then those who rolled a Marauder or a Sentinel totally got screwed over. That's the whole reason I'm upset, if I knew a Tank class was suppose to match or equal a Sentinel, then I would of picked Guardian and been overpowered in comparison.

 

Just the idea of encouraging broken, overpowered and underpowered class concepts spells horrible game design for the long term of the game. And you're defending this, just because you're an overpowered class combination? Are you aware that the game is based on more than just you and me, and there are many other's who are experiences the same issues?

 

Its quite well known that there are issues with the SW/JK line. This was discussed at length in Beta, on various threads, through various builds. I pride myself on being able to build unique builds that others may have considered not possible. So perhaps thats my hubris. I'm well aware that the class needs re-dressed, which is something we screamed for in beta to BW, but to no avail. We were told it would be addressed at some point, which has yet to happen. I'm not arguing that thier broken. My point was a tank class can be made to be almost just as powerful as the dps class (atm).

 

I think players who use thier inguinity to found ways around the typical personifications of class limitations should be commended...because thier taking the class to it's previous unrecognized potential. Lol I never said thier game design was perfect...(as stated above)...but my thoughts are, can't beat em, join em. At this point the DPS class (Sent/Maraduer) is purely a "Do I want 2 sabers or 1..." choice, thats it. However, given time I'm sure that will change.

[Cascade]

Frankly, I'm not playing this game because I want a competitive MMO. I'm playing for my own personal fun, and primarily for solo'ing. I have just about zero interest in PvP, and from what I read about the attitudes of people demanding perfection in raids, I have not much interest there either.

 

This is a perfectly valid option and I can understand that. However, to each his own, your 'wants' is only a straw in a big haystack.

 

Some wants to play it from a more competitive standpoint and I have to say, all the power to them, as all the power to you. As long as an option, in this case dual-spec, does not hurt other's experience, I don't see any valid reason why it can't be done / implemented.

 

Also, in the long run, these kind of imbalances will hurt the game overall, because it creates a disparity in the game's class distribution and it will be more and more harder to fix as time goes by. So I think we all have an interest in creating a healthy class base, where every option has something to offer and does not get invalidated by it's peer options almost completely.

[AxeX]

If a tank build can be played to match or out perform a DPS build, then the class is fundamentally flawed, there would be no reason to have a marauder spec if a juggernaut can equal it's ability.

 

Theres no reason to choose a Juggernaut DPS over a Maurader either. If your reason is because the Juggernaut can also tank, then the flaw is with the people that Maurader is hanging out with, not with the class system itself.

 

Even if you wanted to take in the idea that Swtor intended that tanking and healing classes could be on par with the pure DPS, then those who rolled a Marauder or a Sentinel totally got screwed over. That's the whole reason I'm upset, if I knew a Tank class was suppose to match or equal a Sentinel, then I would of picked Guardian and been overpowered in comparison.

 

They didn't get screwed over. The benefit to rolling a pure DPS class is t the fact that you'll never be forced to heal or tank. Anyone who played, say, a Rogue, Hunter, or Mage in World of WarCraft would attest to this.

 

Also, you're not overpowered for being a fully capable tank as well as a fully capable DPS, because you cannot be both at the same time.

 

Just the idea of encouraging broken, overpowered and underpowered class concepts spells horrible game design for the long term of the game. And you're defending this, just because you're an overpowered class combination? Are you aware that the game is based on more than just you and me, and there are many other's who are experiences the same issues?

 

You know whats really bad game design? Forcing people into pure DPS classes because all they want to do is DPS, because in other games only pure DPS classes are viable.

 

You know whats awesome game design? Allowing me to be a Jedi Shadow and still be viable DPS in comparison to a Jedi Sentinel DPS.

 

Get it yet? This old school mentality of yours needs to GO. Its no longer welcome in this day and age.

[Laverre]

Hmm don't really agree with your view on the social part Nausgaming. Cooperation and social gaming increases with the necessity for it and usually decreases if there is no need.

If I can be a tank and a dpsler at the same time, I have more options and can manage content/quest etc. alone without help or by knowing a comparatively small number of people.

If on the other hand I nearly always need help, because I lack dps or the staying power of a tank and can't switch whenever I want too, I need other people to help me as much as they need my specialised role.

The same goes for flashpoints, sure if I can fulfill more than one role it's easier to find a group and just play,but if I'm limited in what I can do, I have to know more people or at least be exceptionally good at what I do, to get the same easy access to groups.

 

Making it easier to fulfill more than one role decreases social interaction, because you don't need it as much, being able to do everything well makes several parts of an mmo easier but makes social interaction a lot less important .. well at least in my opinion .

[Excedrin]

There is only like 5% difference if that between Sent/Mara DPS and Jugg/Guard if specc'd properly and played well.

 

You have no clue if this statement is true or not.