housing got decoration hooks :((

[Andryah]

One could assume this is similar to the LotRO system, which is generally considered a bad system....even for LotRO players it seems.

 

AND.. one would be wrong to do so.

 

I'm an LoTRO veteran, and I still play it from time to time.

 

Just from looking at the twitch info.. it is very clear that the hooking system in SWTOR is far superior to LoTRO housing in every way.

 

Why exactly is it that players insist (regardless of like/dislike) to constantly compare one MMOs features to another? And when they do it without even had a chance to do a hands-on... it comes across as particularly silly to me.

[LordArtemis]

So I don't get where you come from when saying that GSF was a failure.

 

That would not be a surprise considering I have not once said, to my knowledge it was a failure. In fact I have indicated the opposite, that it is by no means a failure.....I have, however, said two things over and over again.....

 

1) It likely did not meet expectations with respect to player retention and sub growth.

2) It was likely not designed to meet the expectations that the majority playerbase had with respect to a space addition.

 

I have posted my reasons for these views many times over the history of my postings in this forum. You are welcome to check my post history for those sources.

 

You are also welcome to disagree. What you are not welcome to do is ask me to qualify my statements to your satisfaction....and you should know me enough by now Oddball that that effort will prove fruitless. You should also know that exaggerating a point to try and discredit my point is a silly practice.

 

I will let the statements stand on their own merits, or lack thereof.

Edited July 2, 2014 by LordArtemis

[LordArtemis]

AND.. one would be wrong to do so.

 

I'm an LoTRO veteran, and I still play it from time to time.

 

Just from looking at the twitch info.. it is very clear that the hooking system in SWTOR is far superior to LoTRO housing in every way.

 

Why exactly is it that players insist (regardless of like/dislike) to constantly compare one MMOs features to another? And when they do it without even had a chance to do a hands-on... it comes across as particularly silly to me.

 

It is Bioware that made that comparison Andryah. I can not speak to the reasoning behind why they chose to do so, but I believe it was in response to a direct question as to whether or not the feature would have hooks.

 

On a side note....

We want to make overall decoration system as easy and flexible as possible. With the variety of environments we have on Coruscant/DK, Tatooine, Nar Shaddaa there are issues with the free form system.

 

I find some solace in the assumption that they, at least at some point, attempted a free placement system or perhaps considered it. It looks as though they found it created too many issues.

Edited July 2, 2014 by LordArtemis

[ScarletBlaze]

One note I thought of

 

While SWG had free form placements we could not place vehicles in our strongholds. We also were unable to have our ships as decorations and we didn't have companions.

 

So with SWTOR we do have this option and with all that added that is another reason I can see why they decide not to do free form in my opinion.

 

 

What is interesting is the jukeboxes they are putting tracks of music in them which could be very nice as well.

Edited July 2, 2014 by ScarletBlaze

[LordArtemis]

One note I thought of

 

While SWG had free form placements we could not place vehicles in our strongholds. We also were unable to have our ships as decorations and we didn't have companions.

 

So with SWTOR we do have this option and with all that added that is another reason I can see why they decide not to do free form in my opinion.

 

 

What is interesting is the jukeboxes they are putting tracks of music in them which could be very nice as well.

 

And IMO the GTN kiosk and legacy storage is a definite plus....even if I find that I am completely disappointed in the decorating feature for this addition, both of those things give the feature at least some appeal for me personally.

[ScarletBlaze]

And IMO the GTN kiosk and legacy storage is a definite plus....even if I find that I am completely disappointed in the decorating feature for this addition, both of those things give the feature at least some appeal for me personally.

 

Also I went back and listened again and something I didn't catch before was that there would be drops for your strongholds in different areas in the game not just in operations, of course some operations will have very unique decorations. I think this would be interesting as it might give people other things to go do if they don't do operations, etc.

[LordArtemis]

There is also this....

 

Will furnitures have hooks? No they don’t have hooks but some hooks overlap so you can potentially put a rug under a table since they are different overlapping hooks. This type of decoration on top of decoration is only possible for rugs.

 

Which might mean that it is, in fact like LotRO, or at least one of the biggest concerns about the hook system is valid....you are limited as to what you can place and how you place it, no freedom to decorate using multiple stage decorations.

 

I had hoped that at least there were some items that could be placed that also had hooks on them. That does not appear to be the case...but the one exception to layered placement seems to be rugs.

 

I will still withhold final judgement until I try it out, but this one particular item is not looking good at this point IMO.

Edited July 2, 2014 by LordArtemis

[Vinak]

Hook system. I really wish EA would stop striving for mediocrity. They keep making these opportunities to develop awesome stuff but they just never commit and settle for half-assing it. I'm really getting sick of it.

 

10+ year old mmo's have had superior housing systems. I'm not even talking about swg, which had one of the best housing systems.

Edited July 3, 2014 by Vinak

[brutall]

Hook system. I really wish EA would stop striving for mediocrity. They keep having these opportunities to develop awesome stuff but they just never commit and settle for half-assing it. I'm really getting sick of it.

 

10+ year old mmo's have had superior housing systems. I'm not even talking about swg, which had the best housing system.

 

agree with you on this. they could atlest give us the option to turn off hooks

[LordArtemis]

Just for clarity, this is what was actually said during the prior Q&A...notice how they did NOT say there would not be hooks.....

 

My question: As a huge gigantic fan of housing in all games (I love the sims don’t judge) I am the most worried I’ve ever been about this particular expansion as I really want it to be good. I think it was at the last cantina someone (I think Jack Wood correct me if I’m wrong) alluded to it being NOT like lotro which is regarding as being one the worst housing systems in mmo. anything you can say to ease my mind?

 

Eric- The problem with saying anything right now is honestly it is really kind of hard to explain the system to you right here right now, I will say though it is nothing like any system in any other mmo out there right now… It is completely different and new, It will really only make sense when you can see it in action. All I can right now is as a huge fan of housing in games myself I promise you as a fan of housing you will not be disappointed in how ours works. we have put a lot of thought into making it more customizable (not to disparage other games)

 

I take cause with the "completely different and new". I can't see how they could say that what they have in place....traditional hooks with the ability to change large hooks for small ones is "completely different and new".

 

It is different, perhaps a unique slant on a traditional system, but hardly "completely different and new".

 

Source

 

I would have to say I am disappointed in you Mr Musco. You obviously blew smoke IMO. If you are a "big fan of housing" you must be aware that folks generally do not care for hooks.....any amount of time spent in forums for those games that have housing with hooks should have demonstrated that IMO.

 

It is obvious to me that the person that posted the question clearly indicated that they had a concern that this system would be like LotROs system, which they indicated was considered one of the worst in modern MMOs. Your response was direct....obviously you intended to respond directly. However, to me it seems your response was obviously and intentionally misleading.

 

This is exactly how hopes get dashed, and expectations end up far beyond what was possible. Fluff like your response.

 

I would add that, IMO, if you can place a table on a wall I would give Mr Musco a pass on this. Then one could say this is rather open for a hook system. If not, it was bull IMO.

 

It remains to be seen.

Edited July 3, 2014 by LordArtemis

[Sarfux]

Just for clarity, this is what was actually said during the prior Q&A...notice how they did NOT say there would not be hooks.....

 

 

 

I take cause with the "completely different and new". I can't see how they could say that what they have in place....traditional hooks with the ability to change large hooks for small ones is "completely different and new".

 

It is different, perhaps a unique slant on a traditional system, but hardly "completely different and new".

 

Source

 

I would have to say I am disappointed in you Mr Musco. You obviously blew smoke IMO. If you are a "big fan of housing" you must be aware that folks generally do not care for hooks.....any amount of time spent in forums for those games that have housing with hooks should have demonstrated that IMO.

 

It is obvious to me that the person that posted the question clearly indicated that they had a concern that this system would be like LotROs system, which they indicated was considered one of the worst in modern MMOs. Your response was direct....obviously you intended to respond directly. However, to me it seems your response was obviously and intentionally misleading.

 

This is exactly how hopes get dashed, and expectations end up far beyond what was possible. Fluff like your response.

 

I would add that, IMO, if you can place a table on a wall I would give Mr Musco a pass on this. Then one could say this is rather open for a hook system. If not, it was bull IMO.

 

It remains to be seen.

 

Artemis. It is something completely different and in no other mmorpg to date. Just wait till you play around with it yourself. You will see what I mean. It will be fine!

[Andryah]

I take cause with the "completely different and new". I can't see how they could say that what they have in place....traditional hooks with the ability to change large hooks for small ones is "completely different and new".

 

To be honest... it does NOT look like the same hook systems used in other MMOs.

 

1) you can change out hooks at a hook location to give you more flexibility in decorating.

2) they appear to have many more hooks per house then other MMOs.

3) they are offering players hooks and things to hook-in that no other MMO has offered yet.

 

Hooks can be well done. And it simplifies decorating and that in turn probably results in fewer players not understanding how to decorate their house.

 

Personally, I see it as an innovative approach to hooks, rather then a revolutionary hookless approach.

 

And again.. does it not see a little over the top to be complaining and demanding when none of us has had a chance to actually play with the housing and hook system yet??????

 

At the end of the day... it matters not to me if there are hooks or not. It only matters if I can in fact decorate my house the way I want to. The mechanics are less important then the outcomes.

Edited July 3, 2014 by Andryah

[Arkerus]

What's not that easy....free placement?

 

You do understand design and coding wise it is more difficulty to design a framework for hooks than it is to design free placement code with no collision, right?

 

Not knowing the restrictions of the current engine and the funds they have to work with, this is a completely blind assumption, but going from personal experience for the game we have worked with when devs decided to go with hooks it was for one of two reasons....

 

1) They felt that there needed to be restrictions to keep the overall appearance of housing appealing.

2) Current placement mechanics were used to save time and money, the same mechanics used by game designers, modified naturally.

 

I am not aware of any other reason it would easier to code hooks instead of free placement except for example 2.

 

Wow. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. I actually have REAL WORLD experience with game engines and I can tell you, without a doubt, that a hookless system is FAR harder to build, maintain and control than a "hook" system.

 

With a hook system you can code pointers, boundaries and parameters and control those. You can write limits (limits are NOT a bad thing) and make sure the system works, so to speak. You don't have any of that reusability in a hookless system. You have to basically allow the engine to "break" the rules. Location data gets messy. Collision detection goes right out. You have to allow for a ton of "rule breaking" and often time those same rules can create massive issues with objects and entities.

 

So please stop spewing nonsense. A controlled and reusable system is mush easier to code and maintain. It means more updates and less bugs.

 

Again, you don't understand this. I do.

[Sarfux]

To be honest... it does NOT look like the same hook systems used in other MMOs.

 

Hooks can be well done. And it simplifies decorating and that in turn probably results in fewer players not understanding how to decorate their house.

 

Personally, I see it as an innovative approach to hooks, rather then a revolutionary hookless approach.

 

Exactly Andryah. I feel more people need to really stop being so dismal and jump to conclusions.

[Andryah]

Wow. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. I actually have REAL WORLD experience with game engines and I can tell you, without a doubt, that a hookless system is FAR harder to build, maintain and control than a "hook" system.

 

With a hook system you can code pointers, boundaries and parameters and control those. You can write limits (limits are NOT a bad thing) and make sure the system works, so to speak. You don't have any of that reusability in a hookless system. You have to basically allow the engine to "break" the rules. Location data gets messy. Collision detection goes right out. You have to allow for a ton of "rule breaking" and often time those same rules can create massive issues with objects and entities.

 

So please stop spewing nonsense. A controlled and reusable system is mush easier to code and maintain. It means more updates and less bugs.

 

Again, you don't understand this. I do.

 

/Agree with this assessment.

 

Too many people making too many demands and accusations in this thread with zero actual facts.

[Arkerus]

/Agree with this assessment.

 

Too many people making too many demands and accusations in this thread with zero actual facts.

 

And the "hook" area is usually very large (based on what we saw). This whole complaint about it is ridiculous. You can't put a space vase on the ceiling. meh. Too bad.

Edited July 3, 2014 by Arkerus

[Deewe]

Exactly Andryah. I feel more people need to really stop being so dismal and jump to conclusions.

 

And the "hook" area is usually very large (based on what we saw). This whole complaint about it is ridiculous. You can't put a space vase on the ceiling. meh. Too bad.

Add a vertical axys placement on the hooks for the floor ones and an horizontal one for the vertical ones then we can speak.

 

For now try to display a nice setting of say crystals forming for example a light source or just a single one hovering on top of a nice stand == no can't do.

Edited July 3, 2014 by Deewe

[LordArtemis]

Artemis. It is something completely different and in no other mmorpg to date. Just wait till you play around with it yourself. You will see what I mean. It will be fine!

 

I will be more than happy if that is the case. I certainly hope so

 

Even if I do not turn out to like it, I hope I am in a very small minority.

[Deewe]

Wow. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. I actually have REAL WORLD experience with game engines and I can tell you, without a doubt, that a hookless system is FAR harder to build, maintain and control than a "hook" system.

 

With a hook system you can code pointers, boundaries and parameters and control those. You can write limits (limits are NOT a bad thing) and make sure the system works, so to speak. You don't have any of that reusability in a hookless system. You have to basically allow the engine to "break" the rules. Location data gets messy. Collision detection goes right out. You have to allow for a ton of "rule breaking" and often time those same rules can create massive issues with objects and entities.

 

So please stop spewing nonsense. A controlled and reusable system is mush easier to code and maintain. It means more updates and less bugs.

 

Again, you don't understand this. I do.

In a hook less system you might even need less parameters to store as you don't have to bind object to hooks or classes.

 

Then speaking of allowing collision, for some of us it's better not to have it. I mean being able to put parts of items one into the other or even in walls/floors/ceilings gives us even more possibilities cf SWG.

 

You could be surprised of how messy layouts can bring up really nice settings.

 

But once again to each its own: hook + optional free placement = the best of all worlds.

[LordArtemis]

Wow. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. I actually have REAL WORLD experience with game engines and I can tell you, without a doubt, that a hookless system is FAR harder to build, maintain and control than a "hook" system.

 

With a hook system you can code pointers, boundaries and parameters and control those. You can write limits (limits are NOT a bad thing) and make sure the system works, so to speak. You don't have any of that reusability in a hookless system. You have to basically allow the engine to "break" the rules. Location data gets messy. Collision detection goes right out. You have to allow for a ton of "rule breaking" and often time those same rules can create massive issues with objects and entities.

 

So please stop spewing nonsense. A controlled and reusable system is mush easier to code and maintain. It means more updates and less bugs.

 

Again, you don't understand this. I do.

 

Bull. Actually it's you that couldn't be more wrong.

 

You have an opinion based on the silly point that you have real world experience, and that somehow means your singular experience framed with one VERY SPECIFIC and uncommon situation makes your view the end view. Unfortunately for you I am surrounded by some of the best coders in the industry (IMO), and they are telling me your contention is ludicrous. And I will take their word over yours any day of the week.

 

Like most coders you have an OPINION that you believe is an absolute fact. However, I bet there are many coders that would strongly disagree with you, including quite a few in our office, hovering over my shoulder

 

A hookless system is FAR easier to code, especially if there is no collision, and you are simply spouting nonsense IMO.

 

And that is that. My apologies if I take my coworkers word over your hyperbole. They know what they are talking about. You obviously do not.

 

And that is that.

Edited July 3, 2014 by LordArtemis

[Kryand]

Oh yeah, popcorn time.

[LordArtemis]

/Agree with this assessment.

 

Too many people making too many demands and accusations in this thread with zero actual facts.

 

Though you could certainly make that contention (though it is disappointing you would resort to hyperbole Andryah) I would not suggest you agree with the coding assessment.

 

It's wrong. hookless is easier. Certainly messier, certainly not as controlled....hooks is easier to control, perhaps easier if the engine uses hooks to design areas. Otherwise hookless is MUCH easier to code.

 

Any contention to the contrary is absolutely ludicrous IMO.

[Sangrar]

I saw a good part of the stream. While I have never seen housing in any other mmo before I still think that, hooks or not, that it looked very well done. And that Tattooine video looked really great too, in any case I plan to have a Tatooine Stronghold with my Nar Shadaa Stronghold.

[Deewe]

Though you could certainly make that contention (though it is disappointing you would resort to hyperbole Andryah) I would not suggest you agree with the coding assessment.

 

It's wrong. hookless is easier. Certainly messier, certainly not as controlled....hooks is easier to control, perhaps easier if the engine uses hooks to design areas. Otherwise hookless is MUCH easier to code.

 

Any contention to the contrary is absolutely ludicrous IMO.

Hookless = store item #, X,Y,Z positions in the DB

Need to validate position vs constraints (size of object, walls...) while moving around the object

 

Done.

[LordArtemis]

Hookless = store item #, X,Y,Z positions in the DB

Need to validate position vs constraints (size of object, walls...) while moving around the object

 

Done.

 

Listen, Deewe.....I know you don't like hooks. I don't care for them either. But if you were willing to listen to my opinion, consider this.

 

This system is different. As you can see from the video, you have MANY more options when it comes to placement. First, they allow more items than usual, second you can rotate and move the items around inside the hook, that is unique.

 

It may have some restrictions, but it might be worth a try before we make a final judgement. I am going to give it a try before I decide, I would suggest you do the same. You may find you like it.