housing got decoration hooks :((

[Vinak]

Way to ignore what he said.

 

What he said makes no sense.

 

When people's White Knighting and fanboyism for EA's folly leads people to start trying to argue that... SWTOR's Hero Engine is different from that Hero Engine!!....You've really lost all sense of reason.

 

Yes, you can modify the system to fit your needs, but the fundamental frame work is going to be same. Otherwise it wouldn't be the "Hero Engine".

Edited July 15, 2014 by Vinak

[Warlord_Maliken]

brutall i think you'll love the housing system when its released.. The hooks are wonderful and still allow you to basically put things where you want them. It actually has a huge benefit too, it HELPS you decorate the house better. Have you ever done warcraft III, starcraft 'world' editors from scratch? its really hard to make a map that looks realistic. You would think it easy, but its not. The hooking system in swtor housing will bring everyone up to average par, and the experts will be able to shine their decorative skills more. I really wouldn't get upset about it. :-)

[Zoom_VI]

When people's White Knighting and fanboyism for EA's ....

Are you trying to set a record or something?

 

 

Yes, you can modify the system to fit your needs, but the fundamental frame work is going to be same. Otherwise it wouldn't be the "Hero Engine".

The fundamental framework doesn't actually encompass much. You would be totally amazed at how much game engines can change, I doubt the original creators of the Hero Engine would even recognize SWTOR's engine.

[Vinak]

Are you trying to set a record or something?

 

 

 

The fundamental framework doesn't actually encompass much. You would be totally amazed at how much game engines can change, I doubt the original creators of the Hero Engine would even recognize SWTOR's engine.

 

Free placement is a fundamental part of the hero engine. It's used in world building. EA had to arbitrarily implement these restrictions.

Please take note that this video dates back before the launch date of swtor...since I now have to argue which version of the hero engine we are using...

 

One of the main selling points of the hero engine is the ease of switching between "dev mode" and "play mode" so you can live test any changes on the fly.

Edited July 15, 2014 by Vinak

[AshlaBoga]

Repopulation is using the hero engine...Unless you are claiming SWTOR is using something other than the hero engine...I really have no idea what you are going on about.

 

SWTOR is using something other than the Hero Engine, that was his point.

 

The SWTOR engine is pre-Alpha Hero Engine that has been HEAVILY modified by BW. It is it's own beast entirely and should really just be called the "TOR Engine" or something like that.

 

P.S: I feel I should point out that I'm not championing the TOR Engine, but that the TOR Engine lacks some of the stuff we could get from the Hero2 Engine.

Edited July 15, 2014 by AshlaBoga

[brutall]

brutall i think you'll love the housing system when its released.. The hooks are wonderful and still allow you to basically put things where you want them. It actually has a huge benefit too, it HELPS you decorate the house better. Have you ever done warcraft III, starcraft 'world' editors from scratch? its really hard to make a map that looks realistic. You would think it easy, but its not. The hooking system in swtor housing will bring everyone up to average par, and the experts will be able to shine their decorative skills more. I really wouldn't get upset about it. :-)

 

hehe. i play wildstar next to swtor so i know how housing works ye you might be right. but if you have tried housing in wildstar you would know its not that hard. it was my first game with housing and it tok me like 5 min to learn the basic of it. am not saying the hook system is all bad its great for some people. but if you want to make something unique its going to suck every home is going to look the same only different is where you put your stuff . and what stuff you want to use. am sure am going to have fun with it when it gets out. it looks nice. but for me this is going to be a step back from what am used to. but there is alot of cool and unique stuff here aswel that i look forwards to. but is it wrong to hope for more

[Deewe]

hehe. i play wildstar next to swtor so i know how housing works ye you might be right. but if you have tried housing in wildstar you would know its not that hard. it was my first game with housing and it tok me like 5 min to learn the basic of it. am not saying the hook system is all bad its great for some people. but if you want to make something unique its going to suck every home is going to look the same only different is where you put your stuff . and what stuff you want to use. am sure am going to have fun with it when it gets out. it looks nice. but for me this is going to be a step back from what am used to. but there is alot of cool and unique stuff here aswel that i look forwards to. but is it wrong to hope for more

Yeah, housing is quite the thing in Wildstar ; a Rift on steroids...

 

The hook system can stay if some think it's easier.

Still adding more hooks is just adding plasters. Especially since hooks layouts restricts the possibilities and hooks have categories: ex vehicles hooks.

 

We "just" need an advanced mode with 3D positioning, tilt and scale features.

[Arkerus]

Its been posted 1000 times. The underlying "engine" in this game looks nothing like what HERO does now.

 

You can argue semantics all you want, but you might as well call this the SWTOR engine since it was pre alpha when Bioware bought the underlying code (that was completely unfinished). The original engine authors even warned them that there were giant gaps in the structure. Entire portions unfinished.

 

These are facts not up for debate. Deal with it.

Edited July 16, 2014 by Arkerus

[Arkerus]

What he said makes no sense.

 

When people's White Knighting and fanboyism for EA's folly leads people to start trying to argue that... SWTOR's Hero Engine is different from that Hero Engine!!....You've really lost all sense of reason.

 

Yes, you can modify the system to fit your needs, but the fundamental frame work is going to be same. Otherwise it wouldn't be the "Hero Engine".

 

I look at this and just chuckle. Carry on.

[LordArtemis]

What he said makes no sense.

 

Well, personally I think most of Arkerus's post made sense....except for the last sentence.

 

A couple future Picassos will be hurt but I think I can deal with it.

 

.....If you ignore the diatribe most of it makes sense IMO. I think it's important to look at both sides of the issue. Dismissing one side or the other does not help the process IMO. Arkerus makes some good points. They should not be ignored.

 

Deal with it.

 

What do you feel you accomplish by making this statement? I really wish you would stick to making sensible posts and leave diatribe like this at the door.

Edited July 16, 2014 by LordArtemis

[Arkerus]

Well, personally I think most of Arkerus's post made sense....except for the last sentence.

 

A couple future Picassos will be hurt but I think I can deal with it.

 

.....If you ignore the diatribe most of it makes sense IMO. I think it's important to look at both sides of the issue. Dismissing one side or the other does not help the process IMO. Arkerus makes some good points. They should not be ignored.

 

 

 

What do you feel you accomplish by making this statement? I really wish you would stick to making sensible posts and leave diatribe like this at the door.

 

I'm not out to win hearts and minds. At the end of the day, if a bunch of forum armchair analysts want to claim they know better, I won't be upset. Its their issue.

[LordArtemis]

I'm not out to win hearts and minds. At the end of the day, if a bunch of forum armchair analysts want to claim they know better, I won't be upset. Its their issue.

 

Then what are you out for? You must post for some reason....and I would not be so quick to judge members of the forum and their lack of experience.

 

At least three folks that posted in this very thread are, in fact, devs in other games. So not everyone is an "armchair analyst"....devs play games too.

 

Please don't send me angry emails or private messages...I'm not outing anyone, nor will I out anyone.

 

Does that mean they are right? Absolutely not. All games are different....use different engines, different development techniques and programs, etc. Its likely Im not telling you something you don't already know.

 

Its easy to dismiss an opinion you dont agree with as "inexperienced"...but it's better to dismiss it for actual reputable reasons. Like why they are wrong.

 

Naturally you don't need my permission, you can post any way you like.

Edited July 16, 2014 by LordArtemis

[Arkerus]

Then what are you out for? You must post for some reason....and I would not be so quick to judge members of the forum and their lack of experience.

 

At least three folks that posted in this very thread are, in fact, devs in other games. So not everyone is an "armchair analyst"....devs play games too.

 

Please don't send me angry emails or private messages...I'm not outing anyone, nor will I out anyone.

 

Does that mean they are right? Absolutely not. All games are different....use different engines, different development techniques and programs, etc. Its likely Im not telling you something you don't already know.

 

Its easy to dismiss an opinion you dont agree with as "inexperienced"...but it's better to dismiss it for actual reputable reasons. Like why they are wrong.

 

Naturally you don't need my permission, you can post any way you like.

 

I like a good conversation. But then I am reminded why I take voiuntary forum vacations.

[LordArtemis]

I like a good conversation. But then I am reminded why I take voiuntary forum vacations.

 

Fair enough. Well, you and I often disagree, but I still enjoy reading your opinions...when they are not filled with diatribe naturally. Most of the time you present rock solid arguments. I like healthy discourse.

[Deewe]

Its been posted 1000 times. The underlying "engine" in this game looks nothing like what HERO does now.

 

You can argue semantics all you want, but you might as well call this the SWTOR engine since it was pre alpha when Bioware bought the underlying code (that was completely unfinished). The original engine authors even warned them that there were giant gaps in the structure. Entire portions unfinished.

 

These are facts not up for debate. Deal with it.

Whatever the engine it's certainly not an issue.

 

If a developer can drop an item with its engine in the world and tweak it, with the proper UI anybody can.

And that's what the devs are delivering: a UI and some constraints to set items in 3D.

 

As such, development wise, the hook system is in fact a topping over a free placement system.

Because you need more parameters, more functions, more 3d meshes, more UI elements, more QA.

Even I'd say the hook system at least double the cost to develop over a simpler 3d positioning with collision detection.

 

It was a (bad) design decision but it was a design decision nonetheless.

[Arkerus]

Whatever the engine it's certainly not an issue.

 

If a developer can drop an item with its engine in the world and tweak it, with the proper UI anybody can.

And that's what the devs are delivering: a UI and some constraints to set items in 3D.

 

As such, development wise, the hook system is in fact a topping over a free placement system.

Because you need more parameters, more functions, more 3d meshes, more UI elements, more QA.

Even I'd say the hook system at least double the cost to develop over a simpler 3d positioning with collision detection.

 

It was a (bad) design decision but it was a design decision nonetheless.

 

And if you look back on my conversation you might see that I recognize SEVERAL factor that went into the decision. I am very well aware that the developers could have developed a free "drop" system. BUT IF YOU LOOK AT THE POINT I WAS MAKING...it might have made no sense to do so due to limitations, etc. We all know how unoptimized everything in this game is. We all know that. If you don't know that, you are blind to it. They are going ot make a decision that fits all the decision criteria the best. Based on what I understand, reporting several objects back to the client IN THIS ENGINE, is what creates maassive I/O lag. Even if that isn't the central case, Bioware has already stated their reasoning, at least cosmetically, what they were going for.

[Deewe]

And if you look back on my conversation you might see that I recognize SEVERAL factor that went into the decision. I am very well aware that the developers could have developed a free "drop" system. BUT IF YOU LOOK AT THE POINT I WAS MAKING...it might have made no sense to do so due to limitations, etc. We all know how unoptimized everything in this game is. We all know that. If you don't know that, you are blind to it. They are going ot make a decision that fits all the decision criteria the best. Based on what I understand, reporting several objects back to the client IN THIS ENGINE, is what creates maassive I/O lag. Even if that isn't the central case, Bioware has already stated their reasoning, at least cosmetically, what they were going for.

Please don't take it personal, sorry if I offended you.

 

I was just answering to that specific post, the rest we agree on.

 

Be safe.

Edited July 16, 2014 by Deewe

[LordArtemis]

I personally think there were many factors that caused them to decide to use hooks. Contributing factors were probably game performance, the current engine capabilities and a more refined decoration index, but I think the biggest reason was the designer wanted to control what and where folks could place items.

 

Listening to the head designer for the feature, that is the conclusion I draw...he simple doesn't like free placement, thinks it creates visual chaos, and thinks it is much more appealing to folks to have a structured placement system.

 

Just my slant.

[Anaesha]

I personally think there were many factors that caused them to decide to use hooks. Contributing factors were probably game performance, the current engine capabilities and a more refined decoration index, but I think the biggest reason was the designer wanted to control what and where folks could place items.

 

Listening to the head designer for the feature, that is the conclusion I draw...he simple doesn't like free placement, thinks it creates visual chaos, and thinks it is much more appealing to folks to have a structured placement system.

 

Just my slant.

 

could be possible. I mean if I went into a stronghold and people had chairs and tables etc etc hanging off the ceiling & walls I'd probably laugh myself to death or puke from disgust at how poor their taste is.

[Deewe]

could be possible. I mean if I went into a stronghold and people had chairs and tables etc etc hanging off the ceiling & walls I'd probably laugh myself to death or puke from disgust at how poor their taste is.

Depends.

 

First not sure it would be worse than some of the gear or color combinations we see in the game right now.

 

Then by making sure people won't be able to mess out with their stronghold decoration, players loose a lot.

Seems to me the trade off does not stands, especially since it's more expensive to add the hook system and not even more convenient than a free placement one with a good UI.

 

Finally chairs or tables on walls or ceiling could lead to great possibilities, as long as you know what you are doing.

That's why being able to let others decorate our strongholds or being able to buy or rent already furnished ones would be great.

[Neptunius]

Just make housing like it use to be in SWG, then most of us would be happy.

[brutall]

Just make housing like it use to be in SWG, then most of us would be happy.

 

true but with a real iu

strongholds looks very nice. but geif freedom to place stuff where i want!

copy wildstar and i be happy!

[Deewe]

Just make housing like it use to be in SWG, then most of us would be happy.

You mean you'd rather have game play from a game over 10 years old than this one?

[LordArtemis]

Id like to speak to housing in SWG...a game I play RIGHT NOW....the SWGEMU.

 

First, I love housing in SWG. Love it. However, it has some really annoying things about it. I'd like to list them if I could.

 

1) Text commands to manipulate placed items.

2) Collision that does not work properly, so lairs spawn inside homes.

3) Housing sprawl.

4) Expensive to maintain.

5) Difficult to relocate.

 

Now, this is the Pre CU/NGE form of housing in SWG. Later versions of the old closed game improved some of these things. Despite it's faults however, it does have many great features, including the freedom to decorate as you wish.

 

But I few things to consider about this.

 

SWG had a model for almost everything in the game. And the economy, the vast majority of items in the world and most of the objects that could be used to decorate were made by players. That is not the case with this game.

 

The housing was very simple and spartan. This housing obviously is more visually appealing IMO.

 

This game has bad code. It's pretty much a given at this point...the engine is riddled with bad code everywhere, causing all kinds of problems. Yes, SWG had bad code as well, but it really didn't effect housing that much.

 

I would speculate the bad code in this game almost made housing impossible....case in point, our starships. They are not customizable. Not in placing decorations, changing colors, not even in deciding where terminals go or our NPCs...which do not even walk around. Heck, even sitting breaks.

 

I would assume it was a rather daunting task to even OFFER housing in this game.

 

Now, almost all of that is completely speculative naturally. Folks can disagree on any or all points....but essentially, IMO free placement had some severe drawbacks in SWG. This game at least has a gui movement system, and that is a step up IMO.

 

Perhaps the only step up other than appearance of the housing itself IMO.

[Deewe]

Id like to speak to housing in SWG...a game I play RIGHT NOW....the SWGEMU.

 

First, I love housing in SWG. Love it. However, it has some really annoying things about it. I'd like to list them if I could.

 

1) Text commands to manipulate placed items.

2) Collision that does not work properly, so lairs spawn inside homes.

3) Housing sprawl.

4) Expensive to maintain.

5) Difficult to relocate.

 

Now, this is the Pre CU/NGE form of housing in SWG. Later versions of the old closed game improved some of these things. Despite it's faults however, it does have many great features, including the freedom to decorate as you wish.

 

But I few things to consider about this.

 

SWG had a model for almost everything in the game. And the economy, the vast majority of items in the world and most of the objects that could be used to decorate were made by players. That is not the case with this game.

 

The housing was very simple and spartan. This housing obviously is more visually appealing IMO.

 

This game has bad code. It's pretty much a given at this point...the engine is riddled with bad code everywhere, causing all kinds of problems. Yes, SWG had bad code as well, but it really didn't effect housing that much.

 

I would speculate the bad code in this game almost made housing impossible....case in point, our starships. They are not customizable. Not in placing decorations, changing colors, not even in deciding where terminals go or our NPCs...which do not even walk around. Heck, even sitting breaks.

 

I would assume it was a rather daunting task to even OFFER housing in this game.

 

Now, almost all of that is completely speculative naturally. Folks can disagree on any or all points....but essentially, IMO free placement had some severe drawbacks in SWG. This game at least has a gui movement system, and that is a step up IMO.

 

Perhaps the only step up other than appearance of the housing itself IMO.

SWG was rough for sure but a good and simple UI to move objects around isn't that hard to do

 

We don't know yet how costly it will be to use a house in SWTOR, but my guess is think $$$

 

Relocating houses in SWG became simple when you could packup it then move it.

 

One of SWG biggest issue was how the crafting was handled.

Due to the way each crafted item was unique, it needed enormous databases and data transfer between client and servers. It was quite a nightmare for the DBA.

 

Strongholds vs Space ships are a design decision not a technical one as it needed more work to create each stronghold.

 

Please allow me to frown at daunting. A task but daunting nah. Other games did it and with way more features.

If creating players housing is such a quest better shut down the game right now.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Deewe