Sentinel Mara sucks in pvp

[chosonman]

carnage has a higher skill cap than almost every spec in game... but heck it is such fun to people melt in seconds once you can get a full proper gore window off.

 

I agree carn/combat is fun to play and timing the gore/PS window can be a challenge. I'm regularly getting 9k hits in wz which is a nice feeling, my goal is to hit it more consistently. The biggest drawback as I mentioned before I being CC before you can get any hits off and being able to stay alive long enough to get some meaningful hits in before you are melted away. The class is way too dependent on it's DCD and pocket healing.

[MCaliban]

Sentinels are the only class I will relieve of node guarding duties when I'm on my (healer) commando.

 

Gunslingers, shadows, sages, scoundrels, vanguards, and guardians are all better at it.

[Zadtro]

I originally played a mar before a guardian and a sin so i understand how if feels to have one class feel worse then the other in pvp.

 

But i have to say that in terms of who i have the most fun on, it is the marauder. Key things to remember when being a medium armored class with high damage are:

 

1 - Cloak of pain: should always be used.

2 - Positioning: only jump into 5 people if you are stopping a node cap. Stay close to a healer to kill a dps attacking the healer maybe. Ofcorse jump to fight a healer and stop him from healing other players is your first priority because if you die and slow the healer which results in 2 players on their team dieing then you did what was necessary. That's what being a mar/sent is all about.

3 - Dual saber throw/force camo combo: It is brilliant if someone is getting away from you to throw dual sabers then camo and you will catch them pretty quick. Hydraulic overide is good but remember whilst they are running they can't hit you because of camo

4 - You are not a tank so dieing is an option to achieve the objective so a node guard not great but a healer killer... yes, you have the healing debuff which lasts for 15 secs and i think had only a 5 sec cooldown, healer will feel that, trust me. Especially if there are 2 of you on him.

5 - Undying rage - If you are in your last 10% of HP, use that bad boy because it will save you a little tip in a warzone; if you time it right you can force camo after in runs out or a second before and try to get some healing or use a medpac then survive a bit longer.

6 - Obsofucate - 6 secs of them having 90% less accuracy is awesome!! Obviously try not to use it when you have undying rage or saber ward active because it kinda defeats the point. Use it on contact so you have some time to put some damage down without them hitting you for very much then use your bigger cooldowns. Even more importantly only a 45sec cooldown which means it can be used in just about every engagement

7 - (This is the most important thing) You are a support class so your job is to support, when stun fest it is annoying but we are not built for 1v1. If guarding a node you have 8 sec mez, it will slow them until help arrives so call when you are stunned (for example 'e2') quick efficient calls and good players who sees it will come and help but if possible, try not to be the defender, your job is offence.

 

I tried smash and didn't enjoy it really. Played annihilation and loved healing whilst doing damage, in a warzone it is a great laugh and i recommend trying it just to see whether it suits your play style (not great burst but good supression and you can dot choke which is alot of fun). Carnage is the mother of all bursting, if you want to be really cheeky in a warzone wait until you have 30stacks of fury, pop berserk for alacrity, pop blood thirst (with the 2.5min instant 30 stack of fury), grab the damage buff then jump in use Gore into a 2.3 second ravage and if they are not fast enough to interrupt you, they will panic. I have had 18k ravages before and then comes vicious throw and execute procs which aren't too far behind. Healer is too busy trying to heal themself back up whilst the rest of the team is dieing.

 

Sorry about the massive post, i don't like doing them but i really wanted to help because mars/sents are a lot of fun =]

[L-RANDLE]

"NOPE! You're all wrong! Marauders should guard nodes, and they fail at that, AKA they must be UP"

 

Well TBH sometimes I feel compelled to guard nodes, when my teammates refuse to do it. But still, I don't just roll over either.. I make it a point in Ops chat that I don't have CDs/medpacks available someone better replace, OR if my CDs are up, and a stealth opens on me, I AoE Mezz(in case another stealth pops out) asap, call for help, and choke/camo/DFCD. If no one shows up in the 14-20secs I can hold them off, we deserve to lose the node.

 

PS: You also should be keeping your stacks at 30, but n.e.way.

[Zoom_VI]

I'd be curious to see the stats of the other classes as well just for S&G

 

With the exception of vengeance they are all worse, that was one of the reasons sentinels where chosen for that particular comparison.

 

Sentinels have

• pacify
  
• rebuke
  
• GBTF
  
• Saber Ward
  
• Camo
  
• Predation (Technically since it gives defense)
  
• 30% AoE damage reduction
  

[chosonman]

I originally played a mar before a guardian and a sin so i understand how if feels to have one class feel worse then the other in pvp.

 

But i have to say that in terms of who i have the most fun on, it is the marauder. Key things to remember when being a medium armored class with high damage are:

 

1 - Cloak of pain: should always be used.

2 - Positioning: only jump into 5 people if you are stopping a node cap. Stay close to a healer to kill a dps attacking the healer maybe. Ofcorse jump to fight a healer and stop him from healing other players is your first priority because if you die and slow the healer which results in 2 players on their team dieing then you did what was necessary. That's what being a mar/sent is all about.

3 - Dual saber throw/force camo combo: It is brilliant if someone is getting away from you to throw dual sabers then camo and you will catch them pretty quick. Hydraulic overide is good but remember whilst they are running they can't hit you because of camo

4 - You are not a tank so dieing is an option to achieve the objective so a node guard not great but a healer killer... yes, you have the healing debuff which lasts for 15 secs and i think had only a 5 sec cooldown, healer will feel that, trust me. Especially if there are 2 of you on him.

5 - Undying rage - If you are in your last 10% of HP, use that bad boy because it will save you a little tip in a warzone; if you time it right you can force camo after in runs out or a second before and try to get some healing or use a medpac then survive a bit longer.

6 - Obsofucate - 6 secs of them having 90% less accuracy is awesome!! Obviously try not to use it when you have undying rage or saber ward active because it kinda defeats the point. Use it on contact so you have some time to put some damage down without them hitting you for very much then use your bigger cooldowns. Even more importantly only a 45sec cooldown which means it can be used in just about every engagement

7 - (This is the most important thing) You are a support class so your job is to support, when stun fest it is annoying but we are not built for 1v1. If guarding a node you have 8 sec mez, it will slow them until help arrives so call when you are stunned (for example 'e2') quick efficient calls and good players who sees it will come and help but if possible, try not to be the defender, your job is offence.

 

I tried smash and didn't enjoy it really. Played annihilation and loved healing whilst doing damage, in a warzone it is a great laugh and i recommend trying it just to see whether it suits your play style (not great burst but good supression and you can dot choke which is alot of fun). Carnage is the mother of all bursting, if you want to be really cheeky in a warzone wait until you have 30stacks of fury, pop berserk for alacrity, pop blood thirst (with the 2.5min instant 30 stack of fury), grab the damage buff then jump in use Gore into a 2.3 second ravage and if they are not fast enough to interrupt you, they will panic. I have had 18k ravages before and then comes vicious throw and execute procs which aren't too far behind. Healer is too busy trying to heal themself back up whilst the rest of the team is dieing.

 

Sorry about the massive post, i don't like doing them but i really wanted to help because mars/sents are a lot of fun =]

 

My favorite moves on kiters is crippling throw (with 3 second root ability), Precision Slash, and Master Strike (with root ability) especially when I know the other guy has his CC breaker on CD. Devastating combo. It's sometimes hard to time that PS but when you got all three open it's a good feeling.

[Cretinus]

CC immunity would help a TON. And so would self cleans (on force cammo)

 

Yeah, sure. Give sorcs slow-immunity and self-cleans on gore. Then you can have all this and a class clown emote on top of it.

 

l2p

Edited May 27, 2014 by Cretinus

[chosonman]

One question, how does pacify/obfuscate work against DoT and tech skils like lightning and Force Breach? I find it does almost no good in some situations.

[chosonman]

Yeah, sure. Give sorcs slow-immunity and self-cleans on gore. Then you can have all this and a clown emote on top of it.

 

l2p

 

You mean learn to play a crippled class? Yes we can all use a little learn to play. I've learned to play a lot of classes.

[Cretinus]

One question, how does pacify/obfuscate work against DoT and tech skils like lightning and Force Breach? I find it does almost no good in some situations.

 

Another question: How does anything in this game work against gore? I find nothing does any good in any situation.

[cefert]

snares slow you down, speed boosts sped you up, they cancel out. Having a passive speed boost in addition to active speed boosts mean you are far less effected by snares. Anti-Snare does not mean snare immunity. (Considering how fast sentinels are capable of moving snare immunity would be blatantly overpowered since it would make kiting them go from extremely difficult to impossible.)

 

 

 

I don't claim to be the best sentinel or even a good sentinel, but seriously I find that getting 30 stacks is as easy as crap, and hardly takes any time.

yes i agree with you i can build 30 stacks of centering in no time also its very easy to build via valorous call

Edited May 27, 2014 by cefert

[K_osss]

To my knowledge Pacify doesn't affect Force/Tech accuracy. So won't be as useful on classes that heavily utilize those type of attacks. If the fight is critical I wouldn't hesitate to throw it up though. It doesn't respect the GCD and a missed Rail Shot or similar can be the difference in a close fight.

[L-RANDLE]

To my knowledge Pacify doesn't affect Force/Tech accuracy. So won't be as useful on classes that heavily utilize those type of attacks. If the fight is critical I wouldn't hesitate to throw it up though. It doesn't respect the GCD and a missed Rail Shot or similar can be the difference in a close fight.

 

Well, Agreed but on a side note, DoTs are critical for kiting specs to be viable. Carnies, as I stated earlier have probably THE best kiting defense in this game.

 

In other words, DoTs are nothing to worry about. I much rather have tools to mitigate burst damage from the DPS viable specs in this game, namely, Sins/Juggs/PTs/Snips..

Edited May 27, 2014 by L-RANDLE

[NathanielStarr]

There are worse classes by far. Mercenaries, and Snipers come to mind.

[L-RANDLE]

There are worse classes by far. Mercenaries, and Snipers come to mind.

 

Full spec Sage in either tree and DPS operatives are awful too.

[DarthOvertone]

Great can you give me advice? How to you guard a node when stealth opens up on you?

 

Node-Guarding is not recommended. I would only do it if you are in voice chat with friends.

 

If you don't guard nodes how do you manage to stay alive long enough in a fight to kill the enemy healer? Ok... if you don't fight in groups how do you find someone ambush 1v1?

 

Not sure if Nish still plays, but his videos were always good for Carnage. He even made some video guides. The class and game have changed somewhat since he posted his vids, but much of his playstyle still holds true. This will get you started: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odgwDJ4rNxk. Don't just watch the gameplay, read the comments too.

 

For more current info, just visit the Mara forums. I don't play Mara full-time anymore, but there are still a few good players left who post in the Forums that can help you out.

 

Or do you just quit WZ if you're up against an OP team?

 

I don't quit WZs.

[Crawelc]

step1) locate a ranged player on your team.

step2) focus said ranged player

step3) target said ranged players target

step4) profit?

[Sappharan]

The entire spec is built around anti-cc in the form of "haste" and also has more than enough tools to keep every class in melee range.

 

You must have missed it in the last thread so ill post it again. This was a response to the infamous "iwannaiwinbutton" troll on these airwaves.

 

There is a difference between trolling someone and telling them their idea is dumb as hell. I know you are the type to take people off ignore just to read what they say, so I"ll explain again and maybe you understand why its dumb as hell.

 

 

Carnies are about as close to being root/snare immune as you can get.

 

Camo-Anti-Root, + speed boost(anti-snare).

Stance- Speed boost(Anti-Snare)

Predation- Speed Boost(Anti-Snare)

 

On top of this add kite prevention, which is almost as good as having more root/snare defense:

DT-Root

DST-Snare

CT-Snare

RAV-Root

FC-Root

 

Add in CC break-

UN- breaks all cc(use on hard stuns, or situationally on Mezz)

 

Now add AntiCC to all of that...

 

Basically the definition of this class if you give them this is PERMAFULL RESOLVE. Not only will it be damn near impossible to CC, this doesn't even account for the actual resolve mechanics. Now please put up Jugg CC defenses, and you will find out, it ain't even close.

 

Stop suggesting it wouldn't be OP.

 

Hold on a sec, there. Lately you have been making a lot of sense but the above is not one of those times.

 

DT=Deadly Throw (Maraduer)

DST=Dual Saber Throw (Marauder)

CT=Crippling Throw (Sentinel--same as Marauder DT)

RAV=Ravage (Marauder)

FC=Force Choke

 

You stacked the CCs by 1 which makes it appear as though we have one more snare than we do--but if you really want to pick nits, there is leg slash (don't know anyone willing to waste a gcd on that) and the Watchman/Annihilation Cauterize/Rupture which acts as a snare for half the duration of Leg Slash.

 

And, Force Choke (Force Stasis) is kinda a root with a caveat: It requires the Marauder/Sentinel to be rooted for the duration as well. It's not as glorious as you make it out to be. It is useful, no doubt, but it certainly is more useful to Watchman than to the other two specs (allowing the user to hold the victim in place while the burns...burn). It lasts for 3 seconds--that's two gcds--for maybe 4k if it crits. AFAIK it is not affected by Zen from Ataru either.

 

Farther down the chain of posts you claim that Force Camouflage is 50% DR. Yeah, that's nice...except that if you're not targeted you're not hit with direct damage. It serves to mitigate burns, aoes and environmental damage, but it only lasts 4 seconds normally (six seconds in Watchman/Annihilation with Force Fade/Phantom which costs TWO skill points). Furthermore, aoes cancel the effect and it only breaks roots high in the Combat/Carnage tree with Fleet Footed/Unbound--again for Two skill points. As for movement speed, .3 x crap in combat speed = crap.3

Edited May 27, 2014 by Sappharan

[zhaiyan]

if you have no healer, well unless enemy also has no healer, you will have a hard time. Sent/mara is usually a group player, not a 1v1 hero.

But if you got a good healer with you, then it's rock time. It's all about playing smart.

 

What you first need to learn is absolutely position, los, and escape from being focused. Get your healer more time to drag you back, no matter you hide behind obstacles, pop your dcd, or simply stealth or group mez whatever. Observe your healer's position, and hide so that she could heal you while enemy can not attack you easily. My best record is 2v7 with a scoundrel healer at a civil war node, we were still alive for nearly 30 second until reinforcement arrived. You may argue those 7 were plain bads, but just try it. Even if it was 7 bads, if you face tank them, you gonna call it a gg. The key is to speed up, to dodge, to los, to root them, to mez them, and of course peel for your healer so she wont be interrupted too much while trying cast and save your butt. Besides, you also need to maximize your skill effectiveness: like when you pacify a melee/range heavy class, you may not need to pop your saber ward right away, I dare face tank a mara ravage me b/c 90% accuracy lose almost means miss. Try it 10 times you fail only once, why not save your stealth/choke/mez?

 

Breaking stun is something controversial. You may not need to break every hardstun/mez with your cc breaker. You really should think about "do I need to do that if no one is attacking me with great burst/node is not being stolen/healer does not need peel". Or "do I have chance to survive if I break the cc?", for example you are surrounded by 5 and your teammates are all far away from you. If no, save it b/c the cooldown is a bit too long. If yes, break + stealth/mez or whatever trying to ruin your enemies' original rotation/plan. And lastly It's inevitable to get chain stun sometimes b/c latency, but it's not always the case in a regular wz. You may die sometimes but it can not be only 3 second fight all the time. And a most important point is: as a carnage/combat, chain stun you = play with fire. If you survive after a chain stun, you will be unstoppable. What you should do is pick a attractive target, leap, PS/gore + master strike/ravage, you are free to use PS window without any concern... You have white bar now, your biggest hit has root and now immune to kb/stun, and your best skill is available for full length, who is so stupid to give you this advantage?

 

Mez/choke/stealth is also a good plan to fight stealth open on you. Mez them and you could have time to raise your dcd and pick your own strategy, and consume their advantages: OP has 6 sec acid poison on you, without which they will have 1 less TA/UH in the opening 10 second. Losing opening advantage for op/scoundrel almost means gg for them b/c they are just too squishy once got attacked. And also OP would always open with hidden strike, which at most take your 10k hp, and you have 20k left, it will be enough for you to have a good fight. Mid tree Sin/shadow has 6 second 25% reduction + 100% force regeneration right after unstealth , your hit will be reduced a lot if you choose to attack immediately and he will be able to make many amazing combo with fast force generation.Sin/shadow can have 2s+4s combo but remember GCD is 1.5s, so sin will usually knock you down, and use their charge/ breach/project/shock, and then use the stun, or it's just a waste of 2s stun. But if they choose to attack then there will be 1 second for you to raise your defense or do whatever you need to, just do it. One more point, you are almost all melee, play smart when you see him raising his saber ward. Though in 1v1 it's definitely inferior for mara/sent to counter shadow/sin, you can improve it a lot by playing right.

Edited May 28, 2014 by zhaiyan

[chosonman]

if you have no healer, well unless enemy also has no healer, you will have a hard time. Sent/mara is usually a group player, not a 1v1 hero.

But if you got a good healer with you, then it's rock time. It's all about playing smart.

 

What you first need to learn is absolutely position, los, and escape from being focused. Get your healer more time to drag you back, no matter you hide behind obstacles, pop your dcd, or simply stealth or group mez whatever. Observe your healer's position, and hide so that she could heal you while enemy can not attack you easily. My best record is 2v7 with a scoundrel healer at a civil war node, we were still alive for nearly 30 second until reinforcement arrived. You may argue those 7 were plain bads, but just try it. Even if it was 7 bads, if you face tank them, you gonna call it a gg. The key is to speed up, to dodge, to los, to root them, to mez them, and of course peel for your healer so she wont be interrupted too much while trying cast and save your butt. Besides, you also need to maximize your skill effectiveness: like when you pacify a melee/range heavy class, you may not need to pop your saber ward right away, I dare face tank a mara ravage me b/c 90% accuracy lose almost means miss. Try it 10 times you fail only once, why not save your stealth/choke/mez?

 

Breaking stun is something controversial. You may not need to break every hardstun/mez with your cc breaker. You really should think about "do I need to do that if no one is attacking me with great burst/node is not being stolen/healer does not need peel". Or "do I have chance to survive if I break the cc?", for example you are surrounded by 5 and your teammates are all far away from you. If no, save it b/c the cooldown is a bit too long. If yes, break + stealth/mez or whatever trying to ruin your enemies' original rotation/plan. And lastly It's inevitable to get chain stun sometimes b/c latency, but it's not always the case in a regular wz. You may die sometimes but it can not be only 3 second fight all the time. And a most important point is: as a carnage/combat, chain stun you = play with fire. If you survive after a chain stun, you will be unstoppable. What you should do is pick a attractive target, leap, PS/gore + master strike/ravage, you are free to use PS window without any concern... You have white bar now, your biggest hit has root and now immune to kb/stun, and your best skill is available for full length, who is so stupid to give you this advantage?

 

Mez/choke/stealth is also a good plan to fight stealth open on you. Mez them and you could have time to raise your dcd and pick your own strategy, and consume their advantages: OP has 6 sec acid poison on you, without which they will have 1 less TA/UH in the opening 10 second. Losing opening advantage for op/scoundrel almost means gg for them b/c they are just too squishy once got attacked. And also OP would always open with hidden strike, which at most take your 10k hp, and you have 20k left, it will be enough for you to have a good fight. Mid tree Sin/shadow has 6 second 25% reduction + 100% force regeneration right after unstealth , your hit will be reduced a lot if you choose to attack immediately and he will be able to make many amazing combo with fast force generation.Sin/shadow can have 2s+4s combo but remember GCD is 1.5s, so sin will usually knock you down, and use their charge/ breach/project/shock, and then use the stun, or it's just a waste of 2s stun. But if they choose to attack then there will be 1 second for you to raise your defense or do whatever you need to, just do it. One more point, you are almost all melee, play smart when you see him raising his saber ward. Though in 1v1 it's definitely inferior for mara/sent to counter shadow/sin, you can improve it a lot by playing right.

 

Nice write up. I get what some of you guys are saying. "Play withing your means" which is all fine and dandy and it's exactly what I am doing, but what would be nice to see is a little less reliance on healers to get us through the day. Most of us don't join as a premade so we just have to roll with what we're given. Sometimes it works, other times it's a living hell. Especially on those days where every warzone you seem to get matched up against all ranged with no healers on your side. You just want to sit in a corner and hide.

Edited May 28, 2014 by chosonman

[scylence]

Combat/Carnage just needs some version of unstoppable even if its just knockback and sleep protection for a few seconds on leap and nothing else.

 

Focus/Rage seems to be in a good spot, but I never really played it for more then a game here and there even when it was the big thing.

 

Anni/Watchmen well..... doesn't really need *uncleanseable* Dots, what it really needs is something more creative/intuitive, like a talent that does damage to the target instantly for each DoT cleansed.

 

Like "Cleansed Backlash"

Each time one of your damage over time effects are cleansed the target who was cleansed receives *Cleansed backlash* for X seconds, causing X amount of damage to them every time they cast an ability.

 

or

 

Each time one of your Damage over time effects is cleansed, the cleanser and the target cleansed each take X damage instantly and have all healing received reduced by X % for X seconds

 

 

As for the class as a whole. Undying Rage/GBTF needs a rework or have the health taken as soon as you pop it and give it some sort of CC break on use.

Edited May 28, 2014 by scylence

[Miriel_DMar]

So I also play a MARA and I really enjoy the faster paced action with her.

I have had a Sniper, a Sorc (heal) a SIN (DPS) and a MERC (DPS).

 

I really enjoy the MARA, and I know my rotations, I use numpad, Cntrl+NumPaf and ALT=NumPad.

The Windows key did get in the way of my ALT key at times, and then my brother showed me how to disable it.

 

I know I am a hit and run class and not a tank, hit from the sidelines, and get away when taking damage,

We are squishy and can get sqaushed going toe-to-toe. I use Carnage tree and Ataru form.

 

So, what I want to toss into this topic is PVP Gear.

I actually have a question now to this.

 

(I don't have access to my toon to reference right now so generalizing)

So I went with Power + Str augments.

My Implants are power based.

My ear I think is the accuracy which I implanted to give my rating / stat 95.5 accuracy.

 

I rip the mods and enhancements out of my gear especially the alar / acc/ crits.

I was told I really don't need the force and returns are to low on crits and replaced with power.

 

Here is where I think I gimped myself and need feedback also.

When I upgrade my enhancements and mods I stack them with the higher power ones (30AX?) for the +57 Power (I think that's the ranked version). Now I am being told I should of stacked my STR with the higher stat and the lower Power.

 

What do you all say since it seems pertinent to this thread.

I can average about 20 kills and 11 commendations in PVP but I never get the numbers at the end for damage and usually break at about 200-400k.

 

I see folks that hit 40+ kills and can come close if not breaking a million in damage who easily double or triple me in damage and have less kills.

 

Thoughts / input / advice?

This seems like a relevant thread.

 

Thanks,

- miri

Shadowlands

Edited May 28, 2014 by Miriel_DMar

[ToMyMa]

Combat/Carnage just needs some version of unstoppable even if its just knockback and sleep protection for a few seconds on leap and nothing else.

 

Focus/Rage seems to be in a good spot, but I never really played it for more then a game here and there even when it was the big thing.

 

Anni/Watchmen well..... doesn't really need *uncleanseable* Dots, what it really needs is something more creative/intuitive, like a talent that does damage to the target instantly for each DoT cleansed.

 

Like "Cleansed Backlash"

Each time one of your damage over time effects are cleansed the target who was cleansed receives *Cleansed backlash* for X seconds, causing X amount of damage to them every time they cast an ability.

 

or

 

Each time one of your Damage over time effects is cleansed, the cleanser and the target cleansed each take X damage instantly and have all healing received reduced by X % for X seconds

 

 

As for the class as a whole. Undying Rage/GBTF needs a rework or have the health taken as soon as you pop it and give it some sort of CC break on use.

 

Combat DOES NOT need unstoppable. Period. That'll make them better than vigilance guardians.

[chosonman]

Combat DOES NOT need unstoppable. Period. That'll make them better than vigilance guardians.

 

No because mara's still wouldn't have H2F.

[Zoom_VI]

OP - play mando in ranked and come back.

 

You'll now see that marauders are vastly overpowered if commandos are considered 'balanced' in ranked.

 

So stop complaining about a class, that's perfectly balanced now, if not ever so slightly overpowered.

 

Dude the only classes he plays are guardians and sentinels, ofc his viewpoint is skewed horribly.