Useless Strike....

[znihilist]

You mean the Combat Guy right? There is no team.... All the balancing is done by one individual.

 

And your point is ?

 

 

I've seen a lot of nerfs in a lot of MMOs over the years and this has to be one of the most senseless ones. The change to Orbital Strike / Freighter Flyby doesn't address the core problem and instead renders the ability not suitable for the intended usage (i.e. AOE).

 

Yes it does, just because the ability is no longer an "I win" ability it doesn't mean it no longer do it's intended role.

Edited February 7, 2014 by znihilist

[Beslley]

Yes it does, just because the ability is no longer an "I win" ability it doesn't mean it no longer do it's intended role.

 

They nerfed OS/Flyby to take it out of the single target rotation.

The problem is that now EVERYONE uses it in their single target rotation as a filler ability because it costs so little energy and the cast is quick.

So now it's borderline useless for aoe unless you have too many adds for a grenade to hit.

 

OS/Flyby needed a rework, for sure, but this was like doing brain surgery with a chainsaw.

 

P.S. OS/Flyby was never an "I win" button. Using it in rotation was a significant DPS boost, especially in marks/ss, but most of your damage comes from SoS/FT in marks anyway. If you're a garbage tier player hitting OS/Flyby every time isn't going to save you.

I just shake my head when people go "Well now you'll actually have to TRY lolol" and I'm like "This just indicates to me that you have no idea how sniper plays, please sit in a corner and think about how stupid that last thing you typed was."

Edited February 7, 2014 by Beslley

[znihilist]

They nerfed OS/Flyby to take it out of the single target rotation.

The problem is that now EVERYONE uses it in their single target rotation as a filler ability because it costs so little energy and the cast is quick.

So now it's borderline useless for aoe unless you have too many adds for a grenade to hit.

 

OS/Flyby needed a rework, for sure, but this was like doing brain surgery with a chainsaw.

 

P.S. OS/Flyby was never an "I win" button. Using it in rotation was a significant DPS boost, especially in marks/ss, but most of your damage comes from SoS/FT in marks anyway. If you're a garbage tier player hitting OS/Flyby every time isn't going to save you.

I just shake my head when people go "Well now you'll actually have to TRY lolol" and I'm like "This just indicates to me that you have no idea how sniper plays, please sit in a corner and think about how stupid that last thing you typed was."

 

It was an "I win" ability, you were able to deal near 10k in elemental damage, if you check my posts on the PTS when this was announced, I actually never agreed with the nerf (and I still do). But this sort of complaint is counter productive. Regardless of how it was used, it still has an intended role which is an AOE role, it is still an energy effective AOE ability.

 

 

Edit: I need to expand more on this.

The problem that I see it with a lot of "this nerf was not warranted" populous is that they are approaching this issue from the wrong direction.

First of all, BW has a certain vision on the role of every spec and how every ability should be used. Whether you agree or not with this vision on its premise is irrelevant. However, feedback and opinion are important because it can help refine the experience. But arguing against the premise is a fallacy (I am not saying you as Beslley are doing that) and it will lead you no where, and the door of communication you hoped to open with the devs is now gone.

 

Second of all, a lot of the objections are emotion based and if you and I have learned anything that BW has grew a thick skin against this specially after how they reacted when they first launched the game (one could argue they even went too far in the other direction). Now whether you agree on the accuracy or not, but BW have tools and metrics that can measure the "performance" of abilities and specs in this game, and they feel they can trust these tools when making any modifications. When you argue against a modification, you need to play by the rules the devs have in place otherwise they will refuse to listen. Just look on how KBN managed to convince the combat team to buff the Assassin Tanks (I am not arguing if that buff was warranted or not, or anything else), he played by their rules and avoided the "emotional" side of the argument and was able to get what he requested. Again, try to look on the answers they devs gave to the Sorc representative and you see my point clear as the sky.

 

 

If you want to argue with the dev team, you have to play by their rules and nothing else.

Edited February 7, 2014 by znihilist

[Cernow]

If you want to argue with the dev team, you have to play by their rules and nothing else.

 

I'm sure you're absolutely right. The problem is that a game needs to be about more than just metrics. It' needs to be fun. Hence the emotional responses.

 

Players don't have access to the metrics that the devs do and the majority don't want to stare at spreadsheets anyway. Even those who do want to examine the figures are reliant on 3rd party logging tools and usually only test in controlled and objective situations (raid bosses, target dummies etc).

 

But what players do have is a FEEL for the game. They instinctively know when things aren't working smoothly, aren't fun, aren't balanced. They know when an ability is or isn't worth using compared to what else is available to their class, or to other classes (most players now have multiple alts).

 

Yes the devs can't pander fully to these emotional responses or the game would become a mess of overpowered abilities. But they do need to at least listen to them and get their noses out of their spreadsheets, perhaps actually PLAY their own game and ask themselves "is it FUN?".

[Beslley]

I'm sure you're absolutely right. The problem is that a game needs to be about more than just metrics. It' needs to be fun. Hence the emotional responses.

 

Players don't have access to the metrics that the devs do and the majority don't want to stare at spreadsheets anyway. Even those who do want to examine the figures are reliant on 3rd party logging tools and usually only test in controlled and objective situations (raid bosses, target dummies etc).

 

But what players do have is a FEEL for the game. They instinctively know when things aren't working smoothly, aren't fun, aren't balanced. They know when an ability is or isn't worth using compared to what else is available to their class, or to other classes (most players now have multiple alts).

 

Yes the devs can't pander fully to these emotional responses or the game would become a mess of overpowered abilities. But they do need to at least listen to them and get their noses out of their spreadsheets, perhaps actually PLAY their own game and ask themselves "is it FUN?".

 

From a metrics standpoint, the OS/Flyby nerf still fails, but it fails even worse from a "fun" standpoint, for sure.

 

I truly believe that there is a way that we can eliminate OS/Flyby from single target rotation, whether it be by increasing cast time, energy cost, making it channeled and tick faster (my personal preference, but I acknowledge that there are some people REALLY against this)...but right now the nerfs not only made OS a filler that everyone uses now single target, but also totally removed the fun factor. It's a flashy snipe now, which is super underwhelming for an ability you don't get till late game. When suppressive fire is more fun to use, well, you've got a real problem imho.

Edited February 7, 2014 by Beslley

[jedip_enguin]

What bothers me is that the effect of the change runs utterly contrary to their stated goals for the change.

 

The goal was to remove it as a viable part of the single target rotation.

 

In this objective they have failed utterly, it's still a modest boost to use it as it costs less than CB/Snipe and does similar dmg.

 

What they did do was...

 

Gut the AoE viability of our top tier ability, its only use now is against standard/weak mobs or truly massive packs.

 

Significantly reduce the dps of every Sniper/Gunslinger spec, particularly marks/SS (who were not even the top parsing spec anymore anyway)

 

Now I'm not going to pretend (like some) that this makes slingers a poor choice for an ops spot, as with a 35m range, plus an 18m roll (and no ramp time as SS/MM) we will still be a fine choice for any target switch boss before you even consider self cleanses and our group shield but it doesnt mean the change was not poorly thought out and even more poorly executed.

[ML_DoubleTap]

I agree that their stated goal wasn't achieved, however I don't understand how it's AoE viability was taken away. It's still something you can easily precast and you can do damage while it's hitting your targets. To say it's no worth using is an overreaction. It definitely needed something done in PvE..2 or 3 precast FFB/OS gave you a significant head start on boss fights.

[Andryah]

My main is my sniper Yuffie-Kisaragi, and ive been playing since beta and through all the changes ive kept my mouth shut mostly because they didnt really affect my lethality tree too much since i choose that tree at start but this is a bit much....

 

Quick question.... you going to /quit over it?

 

If not.. then you will get over it.

 

It's not useless, it's just not as uber as it used to be. The real crime, IMO, was leaving it as is for so long that old timers became addicted to it and are going through severe withdrawals.

 

I play a sniper too.. and while it took a little adjustment, I'm fine with it and life goes on. Many years of MMO play has taught me that skills get changed, talents get reworked, and some people meltdown over change.

Edited February 7, 2014 by Andryah

[Infernixx]

I agree that their stated goal wasn't achieved, however I don't understand how it's AoE viability was taken away. It's still something you can easily precast and you can do damage while it's hitting your targets. To say it's no worth using is an overreaction. It definitely needed something done in PvE..2 or 3 precast FFB/OS gave you a significant head start on boss fights.

 

People are overstating and exaggerating the nerf.

 

Yes, it got nerfed. It's no longer the one-hit-kill for whole packs of mobs that it was. Now, you have to actually use a channeled Suppressing Fire while OS is keeping them occupied. I know, I know, it's painful and difficult.

 

Honestly, it's getting annoying having to listen to all this whining over a plainly overpowered ability that finally got a nerf that was long overdue.

 

What bothered me the most about it was how it was a crutch for bad Snipers that padded their DPS and allowed them to use loose lazy rotations and still put out top DPS over harder working DPS.

 

Not so much anymore.

[Cernow]

Quick question.... you going to /quit over it?

 

If not.. then you will get over it.

 

It's not useless, it's just not as uber as it used to be. The real crime, IMO, was leaving it as is for so long that old timers became addicted to it and are going through severe withdrawals.

 

I play a sniper too.. and while it took a little adjustment, I'm fine with it and life goes on. Many years of MMO play has taught me that skills get changed, talents get reworked, and some people meltdown over change.

 

And your "many years of MMO play" should also teach you that overnerfs and misjudgements can and do happen. And that if players present their case properly then things do get changed.

 

Hyperbole and meltdowns aren't helpful, for sure. But then neither are "suck it up or quit" type responses.

[ivanhedgehog]

Heal Sages have no Instant AoE, that would be the Balance Sage.

 

Btw. nice nerf Bioware, didn´t notice any changes in PvE. Well our two Commandoheals are happy like ****, that they can throw away there Sage/Scoundreltwinks for now and heal with their Mains again. In PvP Snipers are now on par, Scoundrels seem a bit to hard now, we will see about that:D

 

forcequake would like to say hello

[Beslley]

What bothered me the most about it was how it was a crutch for bad Snipers that padded their DPS and allowed them to use loose lazy rotations and still put out top DPS over harder working DPS.

 

Except any good dps (with the exception of maybe sin dps) would be beating a bad sniper/slinger anyway. Pretending OS/Flyby was some sort of one button win dps CD is ignorant at best and completely disingenuous at worst.

 

I'd also like to point out here that unless you managed your CDs properly that OS/Flyby would gut your energy when used improperly (which is why you lined it up with sniper volley as marks)

But don't let those pesky facts get in your way of white-knighting every terrible game change.

 

EDIT: You must really hate engineering, then, because on multitarget fights the aoe is just silly. Mo grenades mo problems

Edited February 7, 2014 by Beslley

[Infernixx]

Except any good dps (with the exception of maybe sin dps) would be beating a bad sniper/slinger anyway. Pretending OS/Flyby was some sort of one button win dps CD is ignorant at best and completely disingenuous at worst.

 

I'd also like to point out here that unless you managed your CDs properly that OS/Flyby would gut your energy when used improperly (which is why you lined it up with sniper volley as marks)

But don't let those pesky facts get in your way of white-knighting every terrible game change.

 

There's no need to get mad, bro.

 

And OS 'was' a crutch for bad FotM Snipers, most of which will now go back to their mains and thank god for it. Good Snipers won't find much difference in their performance.

[Beslley]

There's no need to get mad, bro.

 

And OS 'was' a crutch for bad FotM Snipers, most of which will now go back to their mains and thank god for it. Good Snipers won't find much difference in their performance.

 

Except for that dps loss.

But whatever helps you sleep at night, confident in your ability to never be wrong.

[Infernixx]

Except for that dps loss.

But whatever helps you sleep at night, confident in your ability to never be wrong.

 

300dps is certainly something to get worked up into a lather over, right?

[Essence_of_Light]

There's no need to get mad, bro.

 

And OS 'was' a crutch for bad FotM Snipers, most of which will now go back to their mains and thank god for it. Good Snipers won't find much difference in their performance.

 

Infernixx nailed it. This is correct.

[Vinak]

I only have a heal spec operative. My orbital strikes are now only hitting for around 900-1000 damage in warzones.

 

That is basically useless. It's not not even worth the cast time half the time. It's only function is to guard doors and nodes. Otherwise it is basically worse than useless as it prevents or breaks CC for a period of time. 900-1000 damage a tick just isn't worth the trade off.

 

Maybe if it snared people caught inside it or something...I dunno. I don't get why this ability was nerfed.

[KyaniteD]

I agree that their stated goal wasn't achieved, however I don't understand how it's AoE viability was taken away. It's still something you can easily precast and you can do damage while it's hitting your targets. To say it's no worth using is an overreaction. It definitely needed something done in PvE..2 or 3 precast FFB/OS gave you a significant head start on boss fights.

 

Its viablity was taken away by the fact that other multiple-target abilities (pre-level 10) hit harder and faster and do their full damage even when the mobs don't stay in one spot for 11.5 resp. 14.s. If it weren't a level 48 ability and instead could be acquired in the early 20s, it might be useful for leveling, as a lot of the leveling mobs are weak and standard trash mobs. But it's a level 48 ability obviously meant to be used in endgame and endgame add mobs tend to be strong or elite, who can run out of the AoE after the first tick (=amazing 1.3k for a 3s cast time).

 

On the "plus" side, the wet noodle doesn't pull aggro from a tank companion anymore. I absolutely despise farmboy, though, so maybe it's time to get Treek.

Edited February 7, 2014 by KyaniteD

[JediMasterSLC]

BW: "Let's make orbital only good as an aoe, but not as single target". Proceeds to make it practically useless as an aoe but better for single target for some spec(s) due to lower cast time and cost, though nerfing MM spec into the ground. GG BW.

[Nkya]

300dps is certainly something to get worked up into a lather over, right?

 

Healer's dps is now halfed (if not worst) and they're no more able to deal with packs of weaklings in a reasonable time. Comment back when your character's dps will be halfed too.

[Infernixx]

Healer's dps is now halfed (if not worst) and they're no more able to deal with packs of weaklings in a reasonable time. Comment back when your character's dps will be halfed too.

 

My goodness, HEALER 'DPS' is cut in half? You mean to tell me that characters specced for HEALING are having trouble DEALING DAMAGE?

 

My word, stop the presses, alert the media, GET THE PRESIDENT ON THE PHONE.

 

OS was never meant to be an 'I win' button, even for healer-specced characters. If you're a healer and you don't have a tank/DPS companion geared enough to deal with mobs in the open world, then you're doing something wrong.

[DarthVengeant]

They should rename the ability, because any Orbital Strike in the military is going to do ALOT of damage, and this does not do that anymore. It takes far too long to cast to use for such a low amount of damage now. It should be like Force Storm and hit as soon as you click. Edited February 7, 2014 by DarthVengeant

[Hambunctious]

My goodness, HEALER 'DPS' is cut in half? You mean to tell me that characters specced for HEALING are having trouble DEALING DAMAGE?

 

My word, stop the presses, alert the media, GET THE PRESIDENT ON THE PHONE.

 

OS was never meant to be an 'I win' button, even for healer-specced characters. If you're a healer and you don't have a tank/DPS companion geared enough to deal with mobs in the open world, then you're doing something wrong.

 

One more example of you not knowing anything about the subject.

 

A healing spec merc can aoe, but a op can't? Get off your high horse. OS was no more an I win button that any other AOE. It had a longer cooldown, and it took longer for all the damage to hit. Not to mention it's a level 48 ability, and everyone else has a hard hitting AOE much earlier.

 

You're just not worth reading. All you bring is hyperbole, and fanboyisms. /ignore welcome to the club.

[eartharioch]

What bothered me the most about it was how it was a crutch for bad Snipers that padded their DPS and allowed them to use loose lazy rotations and still put out top DPS over harder working DPS..

 

What bothers me is that people think "nerf operatives" is a cure for bad snipers.

[Andryah]

And your "many years of MMO play" should also teach you that overnerfs and misjudgements can and do happen. And that if players present their case properly then things do get changed.

 

Hyperbole and meltdowns aren't helpful, for sure. But then neither are "suck it up or quit" type responses.

 

/Agree. And, sometimes a dev team makes corrections, and sometimes they don't. Nothing any of us can do about it except adapt or quit. They may be guilty of poor explanations in this case, but it's in no way an overnerf to either main class. I'm not even sure it's an overnerf to the specific skills... but I guess if that was a players bread and butter skill...perhaps.. but that brings us back to ---> adapt, persevere, overcome.

 

Then again.. I have not seen very much in the way of proper cases being made. This thread for example.. launches immediately into "useless"... which is inaccurate and full of hyperbole.

Edited February 7, 2014 by Andryah