Moment of silence

[eartharioch]

Yes, their view of things often do not jive with /some_random_player. And said player has absolutely no qualms about going on the offensive immediately. And then they come back and clarify, satisfying that player and setting off /some_other_random_player and we get to see endless rinse and repeats.

 

As I said... internet text is a very imperfect medium to communicate with. But.. it's not like they can just let players Skype them and have live 1-on-1s so.. it is what it is.

 

They are going to get abused regardless. They know it, and players feel entitled to do it.

 

Sorry, I added an edit after your post -- I don't think disagreement and discussion is abusive, and I think they "end" discussions by going silent without any resolution way too often. But yeah, there are people who think that being personally insulting to the devs is the way to attract more feedback.

Edited February 7, 2014 by eartharioch

[HoloTweed]

Both rational and reasonable. They should award the skill sooner IMO.

 

If it does the same thing as a grenade but is in fact weaker, wouldn't it be better if they REPLACED the power altogether?

 

Using it was only really about "how cool is that!" and now that it really isn't cool and I can throw a grenade immediately for more damage, OS just takes up a slot. I don't need it anymore.

 

BTW, I only really used OS to wipe wimpy mobs (I stay specced as a healer because I'm playing the character, not the numbers game... and I don't mind an extra few minutes going through a daily because I'm not in THAT much of a hurry) so not using it doesn't bother me much. We've had powers taken away before and I'm sure they could come up with a "cool" power for us at that stage of the game. Now OS is a "meh" power with no real usability.

[mokkh]

If it does the same thing as a grenade but is in fact weaker, wouldn't it be better if they REPLACED the power altogether?

 

Using it was only really about "how cool is that!" and now that it really isn't cool and I can throw a grenade immediately for more damage, OS just takes up a slot. I don't need it anymore.

 

QFT. At least as a healer you don't have to blow skill points just to get to the 36 point ability on something you'll never use again. They need to rework the mm tree if this is the intended design of OS.

[Zoom_VI]

QFT. At least as a healer you don't have to blow skill points just to get to the 36 point ability on something you'll never use again. They need to rework the mm tree if this is the intended design of OS.

 

They are, they actually had a quote somewhere (PTS forums so I think its gone) where they said that the OS nerf was the first stage of a reworking for several of the smuggler trees. So changes coming Soon™

[TUXs]

Honestly, they get "abused" when they comment because their comments are often wrong (at best)...see their explanation of why they nerfed operative cover and their attempts to explain Bolster for examples.

 

TBH, I don't think correcting them is "abuse" when not done rudely. We understand that not everybody there is part of the original team, and that there may have been some loss of institutional learning as a result.

 

He calls it's "abuse" because it's more dramatic and make YOU look bad.

 

It's not abuse in any form - it's feedback. Plenty of players have quit without giving theirs.

[Andryah]

If it does the same thing as a grenade but is in fact weaker, wouldn't it be better if they REPLACED the power altogether?

 

Using it was only really about "how cool is that!" and now that it really isn't cool and I can throw a grenade immediately for more damage, OS just takes up a slot. I don't need it anymore.

 

Because it is still a cool visual effect associated with the skill. It's eye candy. Like it or not, many players love eye candy in MMO. It was craved even before launch, well before any damage values for it were known, because of the cool factor.

[Andryah]

Sorry, I added an edit after your post -- I don't think disagreement and discussion is abusive, and I think they "end" discussions by going silent without any resolution way too often.

 

No disagreement on this.

 

But yeah, there are people who think that being personally insulting to the devs is the way to attract more feedback.

 

Exactly. There is way too much of it, and all it does is inhibit them to some degree from posting more comment on a particular topic.

[KyaniteD]

Because it is still a cool visual effect associated with the skill. It's eye candy. Like it or not, many players love eye candy in MMO. It was craved even before launch, well before any damage values for it were known, because of the cool factor.

 

In that case I want my Headshot and Savage Kick back.

 

IIRC, those abilities were removed against the protest of players who liked them because they "looked cool", even if their use was limited.

Edited February 7, 2014 by KyaniteD

[ghoul_drool]

In that case I want my Headshot and Savage Kick back.

 

IIRC, those abilities were removed against the protest of players who liked them because they "looked cool", even if their use was limited.

 

If there IS a level cap increase and subsequently new abilities this year, who knows, they might completely rework it.

[HoloTweed]

Because it is still a cool visual effect associated with the skill. It's eye candy. Like it or not, many players love eye candy in MMO. It was craved even before launch, well before any damage values for it were known, because of the cool factor.

 

Unfortunately, as I pointed out, there is no "cool factor" when everything about the power is done better by throwing a grenade. Eye candy works fine out of combat but that's not what this power is good for. At it's current damage level, the power is useless... I'd rather they scrap it altogether and at least give me something useful. With ability bloat already a concern in this game, a wasted power that only has "eye candy" going for it is just a wasted power.

 

Does any other class have a redundant, weaker power that is pointless to have?

[GOTGK]

Last night's HM SnV went like this:

 

All the agent DPS fetched their Mercs/SmashMonkeys after the first pull on Dash'rode.

 

There were several moments of silence.

Dumbfounded... silence.

 

Orbital Strike is gone, and Lower Atmosphere Massage Exercise has taken it's place.

OS has become LAME.

[PlasmaJohn]

Last night's HM SnV went like this: ...

When I heard about the over-nerf I said to myself that the HM Titan-6 adds are gonna s****ck.

 

Our normal 8-man HM team includes a Balance Sage and Sharpshooter 'slinger but they were unable to make our run last night. Our DPS composition turned out to be: A dps Commando (not sure of spec), one Watchman Sent and two Combat Sents. We really didn't have any problems with either the birds on Dash or the adds on T6.

 

But to be topical... I have both a MM Sniper and SS GS. It's fairly non-sensical that our late game AoE has been rendered pretty much worthless for its intended function. I find it comical that due to these changes it's now even more attractive for Lethality's ST rotation.

[Daezihang]

It's on a shorter cooldown.

[kvandertulip]

It's on a shorter cooldown.

 

It's not a 62% shorter cooldown.

[Glorthox]

Really wish that MMO's wouldn't base nerfs solely on a PVP problem. I have been enjoying the diverse nature of all the classes. But this nerf makes no sense. Yea it hits hard, but it does cost a lot. I was enjoying my gunslinger, but ever since the nerf, I have been playing him less and less.

[eartharioch]

Really wish that MMO's wouldn't base nerfs solely on a PVP problem. I have been enjoying the diverse nature of all the classes. But this nerf makes no sense. Yea it hits hard, but it does cost a lot. I was enjoying my gunslinger, but ever since the nerf, I have been playing him less and less.

 

? The nerf was for end game PVE, not PVP. The only PVP part of the nerf was to the PVP armor set because PVErs were using it.

[Andryah]

It's not a 62% shorter cooldown.

 

No, it's not.

 

But it's also on lower energy burn too.

 

Net net.. it issues lower damage, more frequently, and for less energy. Mission accomplished.. they toned it down (which was long over due) and yet did not kill it's utility and in fact improved some with a lower cooldown, while lowering it's overall impact to energy management in your rotations.

 

But I get that some people cannot get past "meh big bada boom was nerfed".

Edited February 8, 2014 by Andryah

[JediMasterSLC]

No, it's not.

 

But it's also on lower energy burn too.

 

Net net.. it issues lower damage, more frequently, and for less energy. Mission accomplished.. they toned it down (which was long over due) and yet did not kill it's utility and in fact improved some with a lower cooldown, while lowering it's overall impact to energy management in your rotations.

 

But I get that some people cannot get past "meh big bada boom was nerfed".

 

Did you miss the part where- although they intended to remove its place in single-target rotations but keep it as a solid AOE- they made it largely useless as an aoe due to its ridiculously lowered damage, badly nerfed the already not-OP MM spec, and actually made it good for lethality's single target rotation? Basically, they did the opposite of what they said they intended. Keep defending BW's bad decisions though.

Edited February 8, 2014 by JediMasterSLC

[Andryah]

Did you miss the part where- although they intended to remove its place in single-target rotations but keep it as a solid AOE- they made it largely useless as an aoe due to its ridiculously lowered damage, badly nerfed the already not-OP MM spec, and actually made it good for lethality's single target rotation? Basically, they did the opposite of what they said they intended. Keep defending BW's bad decisions though.

 

It's not useless as AoE. It just is not a one shot trash killer like it used to be.

 

I continue to use it for AoE on trash and as part of my AoE rotation. I rarely use it on a single target anymore as there is better use of my energy using single target skills.

 

That is called "adjustment".. and it works. Much better then falling on the ground into a fetal position over a skill change IMO. People act like they nerfed the entire skill set for the class.... they didn't.

Edited February 8, 2014 by Andryah

[eartharioch]

No, it's not.

 

But it's also on lower energy burn too.

 

Net net.. it issues lower damage, more frequently, and for less energy. Mission accomplished.. they toned it down (which was long over due) and yet did not kill it's utility and in fact improved some with a lower cooldown, while lowering it's overall impact to energy management in your rotations.

 

But I get that some people cannot get past "meh big bada boom was nerfed".

 

First, not everybody agree that the mission was accomplished at all -- many people are saying that snipers will still use it as part of ST Rotation, and many people believe (and BW's limited comments are line with the belief) that the nerf was supposed to take it out of the ST rotation.

 

Second, even if the mission was accomplished, many people think it was accomplished badly. Couple this with the fact that BW explicitly asked for feedback and got told "Don't Go There" and then went there with no comment, and a lot of people have perfectly valid reasons to be complaining.

 

However, I think the issue would be a bit easier to discuss (or at least more interesting) if people had to name which class/specs they play, and at what levels when listing their complaints.

[Ominovin]

I continue to use it for AoE on trash and as part of my AoE rotation. I rarely use it on a single target anymore as there is better use of my energy using single target skills.

 

So, for a Marksman at least, there's an ability that is cheaper than Snipe, with the same cast time as Snipe, but does more damage than Snipe, and you don't use it much???

 

For single target, the 'Damage per Energy' ratio for Orbital Strike was never that good*: Every single target attack in a Marksman's rotation was better except for Snipe. This 're-balancing' actually improved the DpE, as the cost reduction % was greater than the damage reduction %.

 

The DpE rankings for my (non-raiding) Marksman:

1. 626 - Followthrough
   
2. 379 - Series of Shots
   
3. 349 - Takedown
   
4. 341 - Ambush
   
5. 337 - Orbital Strike (Revised)
   
6. 295 - Orbital Strike (Original)
   
7. 202 - Snipe (assumes cost reduction from Followthrough is active for each Snipe)
   

 

So, as you can see, Orbital Strike is now mathematically BETTER for prolonged single target fights (significantly better 'bang per buck' ) and WORSE for group fights (as it no longer kills ANYTHING of note).

 

Honestly, they should have just increased the energy cost to 45 and been done with it: That would have given us a hard-hitting nuke that is not efficient for Single Target use

 

*Disclaimer:

• This math excludes the use of the PvP set bonus. If this bonus is used, then the DpE suddenly jumps to 'better than anything but Followthrough'. Seriously, who the heck thought 'Give their Big Nuke a 33% Damage Boost' was a good idea???
  
• This math also assumes the Marksman is spec-ed into the 15% AoE damage skill from the engineering tree, but removing this buff does not seem to alter the results significantly (DpE numbers change, but rankings stay the same).
  

[JediMasterSLC]

So, for a Marksman at least, there's an ability that is cheaper than Snipe, with the same cast time as Snipe, but does more damage than Snipe, and you don't use it much???

 

For single target, the 'Damage per Energy' ratio for Orbital Strike was never that good*: Every single target attack in a Marksman's rotation was better except for Snipe. This 're-balancing' actually improved the DpE, as the cost reduction % was greater than the damage reduction %.

 

The DpE rankings for my (non-raiding) Marksman:

1. 626 - Followthrough
   
2. 379 - Series of Shots
   
3. 349 - Takedown
   
4. 341 - Ambush
   
5. 337 - Orbital Strike (Revised)
   
6. 295 - Orbital Strike (Original)
   
7. 202 - Snipe (assumes cost reduction from Followthrough is active for each Snipe)
   

 

So, as you can see, Orbital Strike is now mathematically BETTER for prolonged single target fights (significantly better 'bang per buck' ) and WORSE for group fights (as it no longer kills ANYTHING of note).

 

Honestly, they should have just increased the energy cost to 45 and been done with it: That would have given us a hard-hitting nuke that is not efficient for Single Target use

 

*Disclaimer:

• This math excludes the use of the PvP set bonus. If this bonus is used, then the DpE suddenly jumps to 'better than anything but Followthrough'. Seriously, who the heck thought 'Give their Big Nuke a 33% Damage Boost' was a good idea???
  
• This math also assumes the Marksman is spec-ed into the 15% AoE damage skill from the engineering tree, but removing this buff does not seem to alter the results significantly (DpE numbers change, but rankings stay the same).
  

 

Solid post- I like when people back up claims with math Agree that they should've just increased the energy cost.

[Eyesmindassassin]

So, for a Marksman at least, there's an ability that is cheaper than Snipe, with the same cast time as Snipe, but does more damage than Snipe, and you don't use it much???

 

For single target, the 'Damage per Energy' ratio for Orbital Strike was never that good*: Every single target attack in a Marksman's rotation was better except for Snipe. This 're-balancing' actually improved the DpE, as the cost reduction % was greater than the damage reduction %.

 

The DpE rankings for my (non-raiding) Marksman:

1. 626 - Followthrough
   
2. 379 - Series of Shots
   
3. 349 - Takedown
   
4. 341 - Ambush
   
5. 337 - Orbital Strike (Revised)
   
6. 295 - Orbital Strike (Original)
   
7. 202 - Snipe (assumes cost reduction from Followthrough is active for each Snipe)
   

 

So, as you can see, Orbital Strike is now mathematically BETTER for prolonged single target fights (significantly better 'bang per buck' ) and WORSE for group fights (as it no longer kills ANYTHING of note).

 

Honestly, they should have just increased the energy cost to 45 and been done with it: That would have given us a hard-hitting nuke that is not efficient for Single Target use

 

*Disclaimer:

• This math excludes the use of the PvP set bonus. If this bonus is used, then the DpE suddenly jumps to 'better than anything but Followthrough'. Seriously, who the heck thought 'Give their Big Nuke a 33% Damage Boost' was a good idea???
  
• This math also assumes the Marksman is spec-ed into the 15% AoE damage skill from the engineering tree, but removing this buff does not seem to alter the results significantly (DpE numbers change, but rankings stay the same).
  

 

lol, you won't be hearing back from her again. She doesn't respond to facts. Oh well, I'm almost done gearing up my Merc, so no big deal for me. Just can't justify bringing a class that does over 300 less DPS when I have all classes at level 55. I just hope they don't nerf Merc because Sorc isn't very good either and I'm not too fond of melee.

[midianlord]

Welcome to MMOs. Get used to rebalancing since it's vital part of the genre.

 

And yet:

 

In some few years of MMO'ing, I have never seen a nerf this ridiculously excessive, with a dev-team so blatantly ignoring community feedback leading up to it.

 

Not once.

 

It should just be removed from the game entirely at this point.

[Elfa]

Considering all the balancing that needs to be done and never gets done, I wonder what it is about OS that got some dev's panties in a bunch so much so that they had to nerf the hell out of it.

 

My guess, he was playing some PVP and got his butt kicked by a Sniper.

 

Isn't that the usual reason people call for class nerf?