Nail in the Coffin of Ops DPS

[wishihadaname]

I've been playing ops lethality since beta, my lethality operative is my main, its my favorite class, and its my favorite spec. That said, the last round of "balance" has made me decide that for the sake of my teammates and my own sanity I cannot play pvp with this character anymore. The list of things I CANNOT do is far, far, longer than the list of things I CAN do.

 

For example: As an ops I cannot:

-Control distance (at all)

-Effectively mitigate damage

-Effectively avoid damage

-Effectively take damage

-Effectively deal damage

-Control distance (yes this needed to be put twice its that bad)

-Provide utility to my team

-Escape/survive focus fire

-Avoid being controlled

-Fight in melee

-Fight at range

-Prevent myself from being pulled/leaped (thanks, really needed that latest nerf)

-Kill Pyrotechs, Madness Assassins, Madness Sorcs, Deception Assassins, Any warrior spec, Gunnery Commandos (assuming equal skill and gear and I got the drop on them). That's 11 freaking specs that I am a free kill to, and most I can't even run away from effectively!!!

 

Here is what I can do:

-Self heal when not taking damage

-Burst targets in melee range

-Spam dots like crazy to pad my numbers without actually achieving anything

-Run away (usually, I can't escape from madness of pyrotechs though, there I just have to take it and respawn).

 

Does this sound like a viable class to you? When was the last time any of you saw an OPs dps of either spec doing well in a warzone (I won't even get started on arenas)? Hell when was the last time any of you saw an OPS dps? Everyone else has been getting consistently more powerful while all we have been getting is nerfs since 2.0 when we were made semi viable by a resign of our initially utterly broken skill tree. We are the bottom of the barrel and they seem to keep punching the hole deeper in. Yes this is a rage thread, no I don't expect bioware to see or care. But I'm pissed and if you're an ops dps and you're pissed too then let them know, maybe somebody will notice and well get buffed back up to mediocrity some time in the next year or so...

[Zoom_VI]

As a 36pt shield specialist vanguard I

-never have a dcd when I need one

- have no meaningful burst to speak of

-constantly pray to the RNG for good shielding

-no unique utility

-nothing to use against I/E damage

-never have a dcd when I need one.

-second best to juggernauts at everything

-hope the other team does not have any classes with armor debuffs.

 

 

I could make another list for balance sins and healing commandos. Please stop acting like every patch is out to ruin you. Most of the scoundrels I've talked to say they haven't noticed the difference much.

[RollaYoda]

As a 36pt shield specialist vanguard I

Please stop acting like every patch is out to ruin you. Most of the scoundrels I've talked to say they haven't noticed the difference much.

 

That's because DPS Ops/Scoundrels have been dragged through the mud and beaten out at the wood shed for so long, we thought there was nowhere else we could go to get nerfed.

 

Then somehow BW found a way to prove us wrong. They should just get rid of the entire DPS side and make 3 Healing trees for the class because DPS is just that bad. The sound of an OP/Scoundrel coming out of stealth used to strike fear in people, now it's just /rofl or /tickle, put a few dots on them and watch them roll away like a tumbleweed in the Texas wind.

[wishihadaname]

As a 36pt shield specialist vanguard I

-never have a dcd when I need one (fair enough)

- have no meaningful burst to speak of (neither does any other tank, hence the role)

-constantly pray to the RNG for good shielding (talk to the Sin tanks about that)

-no unique utility (both pull and leap, hold the line, hell you're a tank you'll always have a job)

-nothing to use against I/E damage (yah, thats the Sins domain, you can lol at snipers though)

-never have a dcd when I need one. (your dcd is your armor and your shield and your procs)

-second best to juggernauts at everything (fair enough)

-hope the other team does not have any classes with armor debuffs. (fair enough)

 

 

I could make another list for balance sins and healing commandos. Please stop acting like every patch is out to ruin you. Most of the scoundrels I've talked to say they haven't noticed the difference much.

 

The things is though, tank vanguards can still do well despite not being the best tank. DPS ops are simply not viable. Commando healers can still find a place because they are healers, its better to have a commando healer than no healer at all. But you are better off taking ANY other dps over an OP if given the choise because we are just that bad. The cover nerf is the straw that broke the camels back but its not the heaviest one. It hit lethality hardest since we are now fodder for smashers (last I checked neither vanguards nor commandos are helpless against 11/24 of the specs in the game)

 

OPS dps need a buff, they need a big buff, hell they need a total redesign from the ground up if you ask me because the very concept of a healer, sneak, melee, ranged, dot class isn't possible to balance. So yes, were not the only class that has trouble, but were the class that has the most trouble and the least place in the game. Better a vanguard than no tank, better any other dps than an ops.

[Nempo]

Funny, my lethality op can control range... I have a spamable snare and a far stronger snare and a way to make myself move faster...just stab someone close by to suddenly get a speed boost to get to my actual target...works great.

I love how you go that spreading dots does nothing but pad your stats. Spreading your dots is exactly what you are supposed to do as a means of keeping steady damage ticking away...considering my needle ticks for 800-1k a tick...it adds up to serious damage, nevermind cull spam. I've jumped behind full tank builds and a simple dot-dot-stab-cull-stab-stab-cull....they are limping and running for the hills while I let them go and destroy the now defenseless healer as nothing I used had any real CD to speak of, wonderful isn't it?

 

Can't take a hit? Do you forget about your shield drone? Your guaranteed dodge skill? The ability to roll into cover to cover distances and simply get out of a tight spot? Your defensive roll? The fast CD stun/blind (you DID say you were lethality so you should have both)? Yes we are squishy but it is not hard to slip in and out of fights to wreak havoc and keep people scared. If you want to be able to take a hit better than just a few seconds here or there (use those skills at the right moment and you just made their highest damaging attacks do nothing and put it on CD) then you chose the wrong class.

 

Can't fight at range? Throw grenade, shoot a needle, shoot your rifle while you close the distance, or duck behind something till they forget about you or are forced to come in close.

Can't fight in melee? You have 4 ways to stab something. Your goal however is to move in, stab, move out...and stay 5m away from your target so they can't melee you back. If you want an easy "stand in one spot and fight" class...you chose the wrong class. The op/scoundrel have always been about fighting in people's blind spots.

 

People love seeing me on their team when I am on my operative. I usually have the highest damage done, highest kill count, highest solo kill count, and mid to high objective point count. I'm not afraid to break my cover to act as a pocket healer when needed (I've had 400k damage done and 300k healing done in a single wz despite being an op not specced for healing...it's not hard you just do whatever job is needed for the team as it is needed), nor am I afraid to just run in and die to prevent a cap and buy my team time to get back. I'll trade places with people stuck on defense so they can get their 8 medals or simply stick around on D if they keep sending a stealthier to harass the person already on D. There is not a single spec/class I don't have 1 on 1 wins against, yes...for some of those specs luck makes a HUGE difference (a perfect cull crit for example can make a third of a health bar just vanish instantly regardless of what they are).

It sounds like despite it is your favorite spec/class combo, it may not be the one you are best suited to play as. A friend of mine LOVES powertechs due to the flamethrowers, however they also suck at it and admit it, thus pvping as a, and I quote, "sissy sorc" that he uses cartel gear on to at least look like a powertech using a techblade heh.

[Raansu]

After two years I've given up on my scrapper and deleted him a few days ago. Assassins do everything a scrapper can do and do it 10x better...Too bad I find assassin extremely boring compared to scrapper playstyle....Oh well.

[Racter]

Funny, my lethality op can control range... I have a spamable snare and a far stronger snare and a way to make myself move faster...just stab someone close by to suddenly get a speed boost to get to my actual target...works great.

I love how you go that spreading dots does nothing but pad your stats. Spreading your dots is exactly what you are supposed to do as a means of keeping steady damage ticking away...considering my needle ticks for 800-1k a tick...it adds up to serious damage, nevermind cull spam. I've jumped behind full tank builds and a simple dot-dot-stab-cull-stab-stab-cull....they are limping and running for the hills while I let them go and destroy the now defenseless healer as nothing I used had any real CD to speak of, wonderful isn't it?

 

Can't take a hit? Do you forget about your shield drone? Your guaranteed dodge skill? The ability to roll into cover to cover distances and simply get out of a tight spot? Your defensive roll? The fast CD stun/blind (you DID say you were lethality so you should have both)? Yes we are squishy but it is not hard to slip in and out of fights to wreak havoc and keep people scared. If you want to be able to take a hit better than just a few seconds here or there (use those skills at the right moment and you just made their highest damaging attacks do nothing and put it on CD) then you chose the wrong class.

 

Can't fight at range? Throw grenade, shoot a needle, shoot your rifle while you close the distance, or duck behind something till they forget about you or are forced to come in close.

Can't fight in melee? You have 4 ways to stab something. Your goal however is to move in, stab, move out...and stay 5m away from your target so they can't melee you back. If you want an easy "stand in one spot and fight" class...you chose the wrong class. The op/scoundrel have always been about fighting in people's blind spots.

 

People love seeing me on their team when I am on my operative. I usually have the highest damage done, highest kill count, highest solo kill count, and mid to high objective point count. I'm not afraid to break my cover to act as a pocket healer when needed (I've had 400k damage done and 300k healing done in a single wz despite being an op not specced for healing...it's not hard you just do whatever job is needed for the team as it is needed), nor am I afraid to just run in and die to prevent a cap and buy my team time to get back. I'll trade places with people stuck on defense so they can get their 8 medals or simply stick around on D if they keep sending a stealthier to harass the person already on D. There is not a single spec/class I don't have 1 on 1 wins against, yes...for some of those specs luck makes a HUGE difference (a perfect cull crit for example can make a third of a health bar just vanish instantly regardless of what they are).

It sounds like despite it is your favorite spec/class combo, it may not be the one you are best suited to play as. A friend of mine LOVES powertechs due to the flamethrowers, however they also suck at it and admit it, thus pvping as a, and I quote, "sissy sorc" that he uses cartel gear on to at least look like a powertech using a techblade heh.

 

Yeah that's cute and all, but no one asked about regstar nonsense rofl. Do a few arenas, get killed through guard by taunted DPS while getting spam healed, then come talk about the class like it's fine.

[Sharee]

Yeah that's cute and all, but no one asked about regstar nonsense.

 

Actually, the OP did.

 

When was the last time any of you saw an OPs dps of either spec doing well in a warzone (I won't even get started on arenas)?

[Cordorian]

Funny, my lethality op can control range... I have a spamable snare and a far stronger snare and a way to make myself move faster...just stab someone close by to suddenly get a speed boost to get to my actual target...works great.

I love how you go that spreading dots does nothing but pad your stats. Spreading your dots is exactly what you are supposed to do as a means of keeping steady damage ticking away...considering my needle ticks for 800-1k a tick...it adds up to serious damage, nevermind cull spam. I've jumped behind full tank builds and a simple dot-dot-stab-cull-stab-stab-cull....they are limping and running for the hills while I let them go and destroy the now defenseless healer as nothing I used had any real CD to speak of, wonderful isn't it?

 

Can't take a hit? Do you forget about your shield drone? Your guaranteed dodge skill? The ability to roll into cover to cover distances and simply get out of a tight spot? Your defensive roll? The fast CD stun/blind (you DID say you were lethality so you should have both)? Yes we are squishy but it is not hard to slip in and out of fights to wreak havoc and keep people scared. If you want to be able to take a hit better than just a few seconds here or there (use those skills at the right moment and you just made their highest damaging attacks do nothing and put it on CD) then you chose the wrong class.

 

Can't fight at range? Throw grenade, shoot a needle, shoot your rifle while you close the distance, or duck behind something till they forget about you or are forced to come in close.

Can't fight in melee? You have 4 ways to stab something. Your goal however is to move in, stab, move out...and stay 5m away from your target so they can't melee you back. If you want an easy "stand in one spot and fight" class...you chose the wrong class. The op/scoundrel have always been about fighting in people's blind spots.

 

People love seeing me on their team when I am on my operative. I usually have the highest damage done, highest kill count, highest solo kill count, and mid to high objective point count. I'm not afraid to break my cover to act as a pocket healer when needed (I've had 400k damage done and 300k healing done in a single wz despite being an op not specced for healing...it's not hard you just do whatever job is needed for the team as it is needed), nor am I afraid to just run in and die to prevent a cap and buy my team time to get back. I'll trade places with people stuck on defense so they can get their 8 medals or simply stick around on D if they keep sending a stealthier to harass the person already on D. There is not a single spec/class I don't have 1 on 1 wins against, yes...for some of those specs luck makes a HUGE difference (a perfect cull crit for example can make a third of a health bar just vanish instantly regardless of what they are).

It sounds like despite it is your favorite spec/class combo, it may not be the one you are best suited to play as. A friend of mine LOVES powertechs due to the flamethrowers, however they also suck at it and admit it, thus pvping as a, and I quote, "sissy sorc" that he uses cartel gear on to at least look like a powertech using a techblade heh.

 

In all fairness i think the OP is aware of the abilities and is able to use them accordingly, he wouldn't complain about the cover nerf, which is already one of the more advanced ways to play the class in pvp. As nice as corrosive grenade is without cull it is fluff damage (and against a smart opposition it will just get cleansed every now and so often), sure you will end up high on the score board and maybe you even end up with quite some kills, but you are hardly as effective as most pure burst specs. problem is you have to go full melee to get TA without having melee'ish CDs. Mara/Sents already get stunned to death by reasonable players, the operative just gets burned down, because he is the easiest target, and shield probe does little to change that. Evasion being nice against Executes and for self-cleanse before vanish does little to stop smashers smashing you, or sorcs just lightning up your ***, or basically anything that uses yellow damage. the problem is that this class is still melee without the damage mitigation or CDs needed for that, and in lethality it feels even worse than concealment since you aren't as sneaky and *cough* *cough* bursty (lethality has backloaded burst, sure... but try to ramp that up in larger battle against non retarded players... you are the easiest target).

As I said if you just stay at range, most of your damage is fluff and in melee you probably get CCed and bursted down, so the big battle isn't for you, additionally the backloaded burst makes the natural offensive job harder for you than for say concealment or deception, since you can burst down as quickly in 1v1s, so if you are solo attacking a node, the guard will has more time to call and the their team more time to respond, even if you win.

Lethality can kite well and probably is one of the best dps specs in game for that, but in terms of node guarding a tankish assassin is still better for this job (or deception, just to win the 1v1).

What counted for regs, even more so counts for arenas... you effectively are the priority target (even before the healer), since everybody knows the defensive weakness of this class out of stealth, and lethality spend most of the time out of stealth anyway. No guard and heals can keep you up under focus fire, it has been proven and proven again.

 

There is one other thing, as great as Corrosive Grenade is as a dot, it is nightmare for CC strategies. Without it your damage is servely hampered, with it you every so often unintentionally break one of your teammates CC (you talent against breaking your own CC though). Especially in more competitive play this can make the difference between winning and losing.

 

btw, i think lethality has only 3 melee stabs, with one of them being hidden strike, which you normally can use. so are kind of hampered in full melee because of the CD of shiv and backstab, but as you said you shouldnt spend that much time there anyway.

 

At range you basically just spam dot, use the grenade (which is actually quite good), tickle with rifle shot and every 30s use your explosive probe. while you can do some damage from there, nobody will be horribly threatened by it. Problem is you can cull from there and you don't generate TA for cull, and now you can even get pulled or leapt at when taking cover, so you not only not doing much damage but you are valunable as well (that's why the cover nerf probably hits lethality the hardest).

 

Operatives are probably the worst class in the game that has a healing tree (which in all fairness is the best for pvp by quite a margin) to offheal, since it soaks up so much energy, hardly heals enough to be of any use. Mandos have this Aoe, and sorcs dark heal which is decent and doesnt screw up their energy management if they throw out on or two of those. the operative has diagonic scan, which is free, but largely useless in terms of actually healing anything. Kolto Injection is ok, but doesn't heal for that much, has a long cast time (2,5s unless talented to 2s, which i do in lethality normally) and burst 1/4 of your energy. Kolto Infusion is actually a decent heal, but it either consumes are TA (which you better spend on culls, and it is still quite expensive for what it actually does), or the exfiltrate proc, which makes it completely free. The latter is nice for some self heals, but just spamming exfiltrate to get some off healing done is rather stupid. So I doubt you can seriously off heal on this class without being more of a liability.

 

Don't get me wrong the spec ultimately is in a better place than concealment, and in normal wzs you can be quite successfull. PuG arenas are a pain already, and in team ranked even some of the best players giving this class a go, suffer heavily. Even at using all your abilities to the maximum level, you are still hampered compare to other classes, that is why the OP is whining, i am sure he had success in some wzs as well, but he just frustrated that so many things are wrong with both dps specs

[sensiblepoast]

As a 36pt shield specialist vanguard I .

 

I feel you. I get way more survivability with my sage or gunslinger than with my vanguard shield spec. Most of the time its like being a squishy dps with no dps.

[Cordorian]

Actually, the OP did.

 

slipped me...

 

There are a handfull that can do very well in regs, here is just a concealment example from the gosh darn snave in concealment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wOM2LaxC1Y

[olcraft]

I've been playing ops lethality since beta, my lethality operative is my main, its my favorite class, and its my favorite spec. That said, the last round of "balance" has made me decide that for the sake of my teammates and my own sanity I cannot play pvp with this character anymore. The list of things I CANNOT do is far, far, longer than the list of things I CAN do.

 

For example: As an ops I cannot:

-Control distance (at all)

-Effectively mitigate damage

-Effectively avoid damage

-Effectively take damage

-Effectively deal damage

-Control distance (yes this needed to be put twice its that bad)

-Provide utility to my team

-Escape/survive focus fire

-Avoid being controlled

-Fight in melee

-Fight at range

-Prevent myself from being pulled/leaped (thanks, really needed that latest nerf)

-Kill Pyrotechs, Madness Assassins, Madness Sorcs, Deception Assassins, Any warrior spec, Gunnery Commandos (assuming equal skill and gear and I got the drop on them). That's 11 freaking specs that I am a free kill to, and most I can't even run away from effectively!!!

 

Here is what I can do:

-Self heal when not taking damage

-Burst targets in melee range

-Spam dots like crazy to pad my numbers without actually achieving anything

-Run away (usually, I can't escape from madness of pyrotechs though, there I just have to take it and respawn).

 

Does this sound like a viable class to you? When was the last time any of you saw an OPs dps of either spec doing well in a warzone (I won't even get started on arenas)? Hell when was the last time any of you saw an OPS dps? Everyone else has been getting consistently more powerful while all we have been getting is nerfs since 2.0 when we were made semi viable by a resign of our initially utterly broken skill tree. We are the bottom of the barrel and they seem to keep punching the hole deeper in. Yes this is a rage thread, no I don't expect bioware to see or care. But I'm pissed and if you're an ops dps and you're pissed too then let them know, maybe somebody will notice and well get buffed back up to mediocrity some time in the next year or so...

 

Not sure about lethality cuz i never tried that one. But concealment operative used to be really scary if played by a skilled player. There used to be a great scrapper scoundrel in my old server who rarely got killed by others. It was an honor to kill that guy literally. If you managed to kill him, it was a great accomplishment whether it was a fair fight or not. But just like Annihilation, it was hit hard with a nerf stick. Now all these smashmonkeys running around thinking they are actually great cuz their dmg number is so high.......... Pathetic.

[Majspuffen]

I could make another list for balance sins and healing commandos. Please stop acting like every patch is out to ruin you. Most of the scoundrels I've talked to say they haven't noticed the difference much.

 

That's because the average player of this game is really bad. Extremely few utilize Cover. Some say it's a bad ability and some claim they are so good they don't "need" cover. Funny thing? They can get away with such claims, because Bioware listens to bullsht and caters to idiots. Compare the game today with how the game was at launch and tell me whether it has gotten more advanced or simpler. Nerfing Cover was just another dumbification of the game, and their reason contradicts what they said at launch.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=1503885#post1503885

 

Let me be completely clear here:

 

The behavior you describe is a legitimate ability for the cover classes, it absolutely works as designed. While in cover state (which does NOT require physical cover to be present), they cannot be charged or leaped at. Gunslingers/Snipers also gain a 20% defense bonus while in cover.

 

The additional bonus of having physical cover (e.g. kneeling behind an object breaking line of sight to the attacker) is that normal ranged attacks will not hit you unless you expose yourself to the attacker (e.g. by shooting them).

 

TL;DR: Works as Designed.

[BuzzingFridge]

-Control distance (at all)

 

-Control distance (yes this needed to be put twice its that bad)

 

It's called the "lolroll".

[Cordorian]

It's called the "lolroll".

 

you mean like in exfiltrate in, shiv, exfiltrate out -> energy below 50 %

[Laforet]

LOL at regstar saying DPS ops are fine.

 

DPS ops ARE the worst spec in the game bar none.

 

They are worst than any sorc or merc spec, or madness sins.

 

The only thing DPS ops are decent in is dueling.

 

Sure sometimes the DPS op can corner a sorc in a WZ and kill her but once you step in arena... ROFL.

Edited December 6, 2013 by Laforet

[Wainamoinen]

After two years I've given up on my scrapper and deleted him a few days ago.

 

 

Mind you, I've been mainly doing GS for a few weeks now (PTS etc). And I've had zero inclination to do ground PvP since the last patch. The whole cover + quick shot nonsense just made feel "Now they're just taking the piss. That's it."

 

I'd unsubbed when I got the GS PTS invite, renewed to play that. Would be gone already otherwise.

[cycao]

LOL at regstar saying DPS ops are fine.

 

DPS ops ARE the worst spec in the game bar none.

 

They are worst than any sorc or merc spec, or madness sins.

 

The only thing DPS ops are decent in is dueling.

 

Sure sometimes the DPS op can corner a sorc in a WZ and kill her but once you step in arena... ROFL.

 

I don't know madness was pretty meh since launch and got massively shat on in 2.0. If anything it's a tie.

[wishihadaname]

Funny, my lethality op can control range... I have a spamable snare and a far stronger snare and a way to make myself move faster...just stab someone close by to suddenly get a speed boost to get to my actual target...works great.

I love how you go that spreading dots does nothing but pad your stats. Spreading your dots is exactly what you are supposed to do as a means of keeping steady damage ticking away...considering my needle ticks for 800-1k a tick...it adds up to serious damage, nevermind cull spam. I've jumped behind full tank builds and a simple dot-dot-stab-cull-stab-stab-cull....they are limping and running for the hills while I let them go and destroy the now defenseless healer as nothing I used had any real CD to speak of, wonderful isn't it?

 

Can't take a hit? Do you forget about your shield drone? Your guaranteed dodge skill? The ability to roll into cover to cover distances and simply get out of a tight spot? Your defensive roll? The fast CD stun/blind (you DID say you were lethality so you should have both)? Yes we are squishy but it is not hard to slip in and out of fights to wreak havoc and keep people scared. If you want to be able to take a hit better than just a few seconds here or there (use those skills at the right moment and you just made their highest damaging attacks do nothing and put it on CD) then you chose the wrong class.

 

Can't fight at range? Throw grenade, shoot a needle, shoot your rifle while you close the distance, or duck behind something till they forget about you or are forced to come in close.

Can't fight in melee? You have 4 ways to stab something. Your goal however is to move in, stab, move out...and stay 5m away from your target so they can't melee you back. If you want an easy "stand in one spot and fight" class...you chose the wrong class. The op/scoundrel have always been about fighting in people's blind spots.

 

People love seeing me on their team when I am on my operative. I usually have the highest damage done, highest kill count, highest solo kill count, and mid to high objective point count. I'm not afraid to break my cover to act as a pocket healer when needed (I've had 400k damage done and 300k healing done in a single wz despite being an op not specced for healing...it's not hard you just do whatever job is needed for the team as it is needed), nor am I afraid to just run in and die to prevent a cap and buy my team time to get back. I'll trade places with people stuck on defense so they can get their 8 medals or simply stick around on D if they keep sending a stealthier to harass the person already on D. There is not a single spec/class I don't have 1 on 1 wins against, yes...for some of those specs luck makes a HUGE difference (a perfect cull crit for example can make a third of a health bar just vanish instantly regardless of what they are).

It sounds like despite it is your favorite spec/class combo, it may not be the one you are best suited to play as. A friend of mine LOVES powertechs due to the flamethrowers, however they also suck at it and admit it, thus pvping as a, and I quote, "sissy sorc" that he uses cartel gear on to at least look like a powertech using a techblade heh.

 

With all due respect, I am aware of all of this and I do do all of this. But let me give you a quick comparison for reference. The other class that I play heavily is a gunnery commando. That is a RANGED class. Meaning one that need LESS mobility, field control, and DCD's than a pure melee class like the operative. However, this ranged class has: Electronet, slow immunity + sprint on a 30s cooldown with no energy cost, heavy armor + 5% more armor if he's shooting grav rounds, overshields, superior self heals, an actual root as opposed to a 30% snare (which will only slow a mara back down to normal running speed), superior damage, superior ability to take damage, superior ability to consistently do damage (yes I can get interrupted but that's what tech overrides are for. If lethality gets pressured out of melee range he literally can't do squat).

 

Now a couple other things you mentioned:

-Shield probe absorbs on average 3-4k of damage. This is decent, but most melee classes hit for more than that in one attack.

-Exflitrate is useless when slower, and trust me, you will always be slowed if the opposition has half a brain

-Knife sprint lasts 2 seconds and its not a convenient speed boost. You have to be 4m from an enemy, if you're trying to run away you're probably not going to have someone there to shiv conveniently and even if you do, slows will still wreck this ability.

-As mentioned before, spamming dots prevents your allies from being able to CC and even if you manage to get WB on target, your dots only tick for something close to 1.5k per second. Most enemies have close to 30k health. Assuming they had no healer, no cleanse, no DCD's, and you refreshed the dots after they wore off, it would still take close to 30s to kill someone. To put this in perspective, two operative healing probes will do more healing over their duration than your dots will over theirs.

-Evasion has a long cooldown and is useless against yellow damage. As a cleanse, its also of limited use because any DOT class can reapply their dots within 5s. The only exception would be cleansing a smash monkeys force crush but then they can just choke you and smash away (their one smash does more than a double procced cull and in less than a quarter of the time). The only reliable use of evasion is for fighting marksman snipers or cleansing before restealthing. It doesn't work well for much else.

-Lastly, no offense to your skills as an operative, but 400k damage is weak. I've played game where i've gotten well over a million with 200k in self heals and no deaths. For all that damage/evasion, I did less to actually advance the team than did our sniper or our smasher. I could get a bunch of targets to 80% health reliably. They could get specific targets to 0% health repeatedly. It was all fluff damage, orbitals, grenades, dots, occasionally culls. I spent the entire game multi dotting and running away, the other option was to try to burst and die repeatedly because the enemy had 2 healer ops who countered everything I could possibly do to anyone.

[Technohic]

I always love the minimizing the fact of how bad classes are. People did it to merc back before 2.0 and when they had to stack so many procs and they will do it now to DPS Op/Scoun.

 

The fact of the matter is, yes; you can be an exceptional player and make a living destroying bads or in this class case, you can 1v1 some people pretty well by being an exceptional player, but the fact is, no matter how well that player could do as a DPS Op, they could do much better as almost any other DPS class when it comes to warzones or arenas.

 

Personally; I like the underdog persona to it and like the tools it has in an objective based warzone, but it might be going a little too far when other players pretty much want you banned from Qing up because the class is so bad in arenas. Doesn't help when the healing spec is so far an above the effectiveness of the DPS counterpart.

[wishihadaname]

but the fact is, no matter how well that player could do as a DPS Op, they could do much better as almost any other DPS class when it comes to warzones or arenas.

\.

 

Exactly. This is why i'm shelfing my op and going to my gunnery commando, its just so much more useful to the team. The OP is more of a liability than an asset, the commando can blow stuff up and take a hit. With the cover nerf in place, the ops just isn't fun to play anymore, I like the underdog feel quite a bit but there is a difference between underdog and quadruple amputee dog. One you want to root for, the other you just feel really sorry for.

 

It seems to me like Bioware lack any sort of vision for the operative and they themselves have no idea what the class is supposed to be about. Is it melee? Is it ranged? Is it stealth based? Dot based? Ambush based? Pressure based? Burst or AOE based? The class has 42 activated abilities. Only 8 of them get incorporated into the lethality tree, and 6 in the concealment tree. There is so much potential that just doesn't get touched, the skill trees are unintegrated and completely gloss over the massive arsenal of abilities that the class has. Overall it just seems like bad design and honestly I think a ground up overhaul wouldn't be out of the question.

 

I think they should remake the concealment tree to be about ambush and debuffs. On top of their current abilities, they would need more short term evasion based DCD's, and a host of debuffs to healing, dps, and tanking. Basically a concealment ops might not kill you, but he'll make you suck at your job and much easier to kill for anyone else.

 

Lethality on the other hand I think should just be thrown out the window. They should make engineering the shared tree instead, it seems to mesh much better with the idea of a gadget based operative and it would be a full ranged spec with less emphasis on dcd's and debuffs and more emphasis on pure aoe damage and utility.

[Ottoattack]

The OP is correct in almost everything. Ops are melee dps that have very weak survivability, weak burst, weak ranged capabilities and probably the worst off healing. In arenas, they will be the first target to focus fire, as they have little options to mitigate damage. Concealment is a very bad spec from all aspects of game play. Weak dps, weak burst and too much CC. They are a very gimped dec sin, that is an annoyance at best. Lethality, does better damage, with a reasonable burst from cull, but survivability is non-existent.

 

Also, whoever was saying dps ops are better than PT This a serious L2P.

Edited December 6, 2013 by Ottoattack

[Cordorian]

The OP is correct in almost everything. Ops are melee dps that have very weak survivability, weak burst, weak ranged capabilities and probably the worst off healing. In arenas, they will be the first target to focus fire, as they have little options to mitigate damage. Concealment is a very bad spec from all aspects of game play. Weak dps, weak burst and too much CC. They are a very gimped dec sin, that is an annoyance at best. Lethality, does better damage, with a reasonable burst from cull, but survivability is non-existent.

 

Also, whoever was saying dps ops are better than PT This a serious L2P.

 

See, the thing is i don't really understand hardly any class whining, since i played operative DPS far too long as well. Every PvPer with half a brain and some experience with different classes. knows it is **** (still fun to play at times). All three Mara specs are better, and that with Anni being considered useless in PVP. Both Sorc DPS trees are in fact better (and i admit sorcs have hard time, they absolutely have, but it is nothing compared operative DPS, and madness can at least kite well). Both Jugg DPS trees are better by quite a margin, the only problem juggs have is that they dont have mara CDs, but at least they have 1 usefull CD, taunts, a proper GAP closer and can last a bit in the heat of a battle. Mercs have ranged, Electronet, shield, Knockback and some really hard hitting abilities. Snipers have three trees that work well in wzs, they might struggle against a FOTM combo in arenas but otherwise the class is absolutely fine. Well and since last patch PT some to be FOTM again. Deception is just what every concealment Op whats to be when he grows up, and it is still not that great, but still a million times better than anything a DPS operative can deliver. Leaves the madness assassin, I think i have never seen one in an wz, but from what you hear the are in operative league, so total rubbish.

 

One argument i used quite often in here was ranged. As much as Mercs and Sorcs my suffer in WZ they have most of their damage from range, some spec can also kite very well, and they have actually usable AoE attacks (Orbital my be the hardest hitting AoE in the game, but there are only very few occassions where it is actually useful in pvp). Operatives are a melee class without melee CDs and no damage mitigation, so outside the healing tree there is next to no survivability outside of stealth. So for concealment the leaves the niche of being node guard or node attacker in wzs, or lolroll ball carrier in huttball (in Snave foottage you actually see that his brightest moments are huttball games, or 1v1 at off nodes). You just can't survive in the main battle. Smart opposition will rip you appart straight after you open on their healer and there like nothing you can do about it. Lethality in principle could node guard well, because of the cc and the kiting tools, but that is a bit of too limit role for a class and on top of that assassins are still better at that having almost the same tools available.

Node attacking sometimes works, but only when the opposing team has really bad communication, since by the ramp up time your TTK is just that few seconds to high, especially if sap capping is out of the question (Novare!). In the main fight it is just the mechanics of the spec that hamper you as I and the OP tried to explain. The spec is capable of massive damage and an insane burst, but you wont get this off often in a game where there is smash, tons of cc, on some people with a brain... and ... no aoe and/or dr damage reduction.

In arenas of all three kinds (pug, solo ranked, group ranked) you are just a liability for your team in both specs. You are just the easiest target to burn down. Sorcs rightfully complain that they in trouble in arenas, because everybody focuses them (which in case it is a lightning sorc is wise thing to do, if you wanna live), but once the dps operative pops out of stealth he is everybodys favorite target, simply because they are even easier to take down(operative dont even have bubble or god bubble, and even vanish get usually countered easily, by AoE heavy classes).

[Laforet]

I don't know madness was pretty meh since launch and got massively shat on in 2.0. If anything it's a tie.

 

Hard matchup lol.

[wishihadaname]

Madness sins have made a comeback recently, i've seen several doing quite well in the last few days. I don't really know that class so I can't comment but it seems like they have fewer issues than we do (regen tied to damage, complete immunity to cleansing, better burst, sustained, DCD's). Though I don't know how their range is or how well they take damage.