gunships... the jokes still not funny GSF devs

[Svarthrafn]

Gunships can take a while to knock out, especially if they use certain abilities. I haven't had a lone gunship get away, but when 3 or more are covering eachother it is nearly impossible to dislodge them without the team needing to give up objectives to go chase them off. While one scout beats one gunship in most cases, 3 gunships beat 3 of anything else in nearly every case. Even well-coordinated non-gunship premades.

 

There is a reason that most premades right now consist of several gunships.

Edited December 10, 2013 by Svarthrafn

[Danylia]

I think Gunships are relatively well-balanced, neither overpowered nor underpowered. But personally, I find the matches with 25% of Gunships on either side extremely BORING.

[Mazikeen]

The only problem I have with gunships is how they are designed. I was so thrilled of a dog-fight space fighting matches. I wanted to be reminded of the good old X-wing, Tie-fighter series but what did I get when I entered a match? It was half of enemy team sitting on other side of the map next to floating asteroids, shooting laser beams at people from relative distance. And if they got one scratch into their shields they would bugger off into a safe zone.

 

So what I got instead of X-Wing was Call of Duty: Space Ships, space ships with snipe lasors next to asteroids instead of high caliber toting snipers in bushes, sitting still, waiting for something to shoot. (Maybe Call of Duty: Space Ships is bit too harsh but snipers... in a dog fighting gamemode? Reaaally?)

 

Not everyone is good at PvP. Not everyone is good at mass chaos. Some people are much, much better at being patient and waiting for a prime shot. You can run amok and pewpew all you like, but some people would rather find a few good waiting spots and pick people off until they get smart enough to find us.

 

Gunships hit hard, yes, just like Snipers. They also fold if you sneeze too hard on them. When you guys whine about their offensive capabilities try to keep their lack of defense in mind.

[AlrikFassbauer]

But I'm finding that in these 4+ gunship games, particularly when the multiple gunship players are assisting one another, the games are boring whether my team wins or loses. Because a comp like that, executed by a decent team, basically locks the map down and renders successful gameplay turtle-like and predictable. The effect is similar to having too much crowd control.

 

But you have that problem - in principle with combined Scout & Strike Fighter forces as well.

[Zoom_VI]

But you have that problem - in principle with combined Scout & Strike Fighter forces as well.

 

What? this isn't a premade thread. 4 PuG gunships can cover each other as long as they have a basic sense of awareness. Also no ship should have the capability to one-shot another ship from 15km and without the victim receiving any warning other than a return to respawn screen.

[AlrikFassbauer]

What? this isn't a premade thread. 4 PuG gunships can cover each other as long as they have a basic sense of awareness. Also no ship should have the capability to one-shot another ship from 15km and without the victim receiving any warning other than a return to respawn screen.

 

You don't understand what I'm meaning.

 

You'll have the problem of a certain ship type feeling OP with ANY ship type - if you have enough of them. And well coordinated players using them.

[Zoom_VI]

You don't understand what I'm meaning.

 

You'll have the problem of a certain ship type feeling OP with ANY ship type - if you have enough of them. And well coordinated players using them.

Its nice to know superior play is powerful. derp.

 

you don't need coordination to one shot someone with a gunship. That's what makes it OP. gunships are the smashmonkies of space.

[AlrikFassbauer]

I've often been oneshot by Strike Fighters - via their missiles.

 

And thank you that you call me a "derp". Very polite, this is.

[Grayseven]

I played 4 matches this morning (all wins), the first in a scout with 7 kills 13 assists and no deaths, the second in a strike with 6 kills 15 assists and 1 death and the third in a GS with 10 kills 5 assists and no deaths before going back to my beloved scout for the 4th match with 7 kills 9 assists and one death..

 

I was able to do well in my GS because I parked myself in a jumble of asteroids within 13k of objective B and only one time did I get flushed out. I could sit back and blast away at people making a bee line to B to destroy turrets and ignoring me completely.

 

GS weapons have a distinct graphic when you get hit by them. If you get hit by a GS weapon it is in your best interest to find out where it is and hunt it down. A GS running from a scout or strike is in no position to snipe on you or your wing mates. A GS running from a scout/strike is like watching a linebacker running from a running back...funny and ultimately futile.

 

You can not fly directly at a gunship from the front and if you are doing a straight line at any time in GSF while fighting you are doing it wrong because straight is predictable and predictable is dead.

 

GS's provide a crucial role, their heavy firepower and long range limited by their speed and maneuverability. You can not play to the strengths of the GS, you have to prey on their weakness. This game would be downright boring without GS's to add another level of threat. The key is to understand the GS's role and to undermine its ability to fulfill that role.

[Zoom_VI]

I've often been oneshot by Strike Fighters - via their missiles.

 

And thank you that you call me a "derp". Very polite, this is.

 

What? How, I play a scout and have never been oneshot by a missile. Unless you where already at low shields or hull which doesn't count.

Besides missiles require a lock-on and give plenty of warning to their target and can be evaded. But you can't evade a slug and the slug does not give any warning either.

[Macka_M]

I was satellite humping keeping an objective..

That'll teach you won't it. Just a few sec to get into position and it's like shooting fish in a barrell

[Deamon_Samurai]

It'is not the easiest thing to "sneak" up on something that has a range of 15000m when your best shot may be up to 5000m. Then you have 2-4 of them in a cluster, there is no survival rate. And most that pilot them are not in it for the team play, they're in it for the kill count. This one shot one kill crap needs to be snubbed.

[paowee]

That'll teach you won't it. Just a few sec to get into position and it's like shooting fish in a barrell

 

Lol yeah but what is a lone novadive supposed to do when defending against 2 stings in Kuat midfield? I got hit by the upgraded ion railgun and and then boom.. no engine pool to spacebar kite.

Edited December 10, 2013 by paowee

[Benfynyn]

It'is not the easiest thing to "sneak" up on something that has a range of 15000m when your best shot may be up to 5000m. Then you have 2-4 of them in a cluster, there is no survival rate. And most that pilot them are not in it for the team play, they're in it for the kill count. This one shot one kill crap needs to be snubbed.

 

A lot of gunships tech up Dampening Sensors but not their Range Sensors. This makes them great at hiding but horrible vs anything else that also is teched up with Dampening sensors. Like Blackbolts/NovaDives. To spot each other at range this pairing relies on communication sensors from the other ships. Otherwise they need to be within 3500m to detect me while I need to be within 8000m to detect them.

 

So with my NovaDive, if I know the general location of the gunship I avoid the other enemy ships as much as possible and get close enough so we detect each other. But at that distance the advantage is mine. Like with anything, if you have the right tool for the job the job is easy.

Edited December 10, 2013 by Benfynyn

[Dustotepp]

They should just make everyone play scouts and get rid of this variety nonsense.

[Kamikazeelotro]

They should just make everyone play scouts and get rid of this variety nonsense.

 

The game would be a lot more fun that is for sure with many more dogfights

[Grayseven]

The game would be a lot more fun that is for sure with many more dogfights

 

It would be boring. They need to fix matchmaking instead. It's easy for an upgraded GS to smash a noob scout.

[Lord_Of_Sith]

What? How, I play a scout and have never been oneshot by a missile. Unless you where already at low shields or hull which doesn't count.

Besides missiles require a lock-on and give plenty of warning to their target and can be evaded. But you can't evade a slug and the slug does not give any warning either.

 

I've been on a scout and been one-shot by a missile before. 100% health, 100% shields, a missile hit me and I was dead, true 1-shot. Proton torpedo's do 872 damage (with 5% upgrade), with 100% shield piercing and 100% armor piercing. Normally this will just take a scout (base hp of 950) to 78hp, but the Proton Torpedo also has a passive 10% crit chance. While it is very unlikely that someone will lock on to a scout and be able to hit a scout with this missile, AND have it crit, a missile 1 shot is in fact possible and occasionally happens.

 

One-shots are possible from non-gunships, but they are definitely far more rare. Of the ~150 games I've played, I've been one-shot by a missile once, and one-shot by a gunship ~10 times.

 

Let's take a look at how gunship 1-shots actually work:

Useful copilot actives: Bypass (Increases shield piercing by 35%)

 

Slug Railgun, with Damage for T5 upgrade: 1760 Damage, 30% shield piercing, 100% armor piercing, 0% crit chance.

Scenario #1: No copilot ability activated. 1232 shield damage, 528 hull damage.

Scenario #2: Bypass activated. 616 shield damage, 1144 hull damage.

 

Slug Railgun, with Crit for T5 upgrade: 1600 damage, 30% shield piercing, 100% armor piercing, 20% crit chance. If there is no crit: 1120 shield damage, 480 hull damage. If there is a crit: 2240 shield damage, 860 hull damage.

Scenario #3: No copilot ability activated, no crit. 1120 shield damage, 480 hull damage.

Scenario #4: No copilot ability activated, crit. 2240 shield damage, 860 hull damage.

Scenario #5: Bypass activated, no crit. 560 shield damage, 1040 hull damage.

Scenario #6: Bypass activated, crit. 1120 shield damage, 2080 hull damage.

 

For the sake of argument here in favor of gunships being OP, we'll look at a scout with a -30% shield capacity shield, NO shield benefits from companions, and NO other hull or shield boosts at all. This is the lowest shield/hp a ship can possibly have: 910 Shield, 950 Hull.

 

Scenario #1: Shields depleted, 100 hull remaining. One-shot? NO

Scenario #2: 294 shield remaining, but hull is depleted/dead. One-shot? YES

Scenario #3: Shields depleted, 260 hull remaining. One-shot? NO

Scenario #4: Shields depleted, hull depleted/dead. One-shot? YES

Scenario #5: 350 shield remaining, but hull is depleted/dead. One-shot? YES

Scenario #6: shields depleted, hull depleted/dead. One-shot? YES

 

So it is never a one-shot on the weakest target without a crit or using bypass, but it will always be a one-shot with EITHER a crit or bypass. That is on the weakest possible target.

 

Now lets look at a Sting using distortion field (-30% capacity), but large reactors and a companion with power to shields, using evasion armor instead of hp armor: 1300 shields, 950 hull. This appears to be the preferred sting build at this time.

 

Scenario #1: 68 shield remaining, 422 hull remaining. One-shot? No

Scenario #2: 684 shields remaining, but hull is depleted/dead. One-shot? YES

Scenario #3: 180 shields remaining, 470 hull remaining. One-shot? NO

Scenario #4: Shields depleted, hull depleted/dead. One-shot? YES

Scenario #5: 740 shields remaining, but hull depleted/dead. One-shot? YES

Scenario #6: 180 shields remaining, but hull is depleted/dead. One-shot? YES

 

Exact same results as with the weakest ship; if there is either a crit or bypass is active, there is a one shot; otherwise there isn't.

 

Finally, lets look at the previous sting, but using reinforced armor (hull hp) rather than evasion armor: 1300 shields, 1140 max health.

 

Scenario #1: 68 shield remaining, 612 hull remaining. One-shot? NO

Scenario #2: 684 shields remaining, but hull is depleted/dead (4hp beyond death). One-shot? YES

Scenario #3: 180 shields remaining, 660 hull remaining. One-shot? NO

Scenario #4: Shields depleted, hull depleted/dead. One-shot? YES

Scenario #5: 740 shields remaining, 100 hp remaining. One-shot? NO

Scenario #6: 180 shields remaining, but hull is depleted/dead. One-shot? YES

 

The difference here is that a slug railgun with crit upgrade will no longer one shot a scout if they are using bypass by do not get a crit. The scout barely dies (by 5hp) to a damage upgraded slug with bypass.

 

I am fine with a crit giving a one-shot; crits by nature are unpredictable and unreliable. However, bypass is usable and guaranteed on-command. This gives an easy and reliable, guaranteed one-shot. There should be an available build to counter guaranteed controllable one-shots.

 

Looking at the numbers above, a scout using reinforced armor is only 5hp short of not being one-shotted by any gunships using bypass, without a lucky crit. An easy change that would have no impact on the game outside of these one-shots would be to

A: increase a scout's base hp from 950 to 955.

B: decrease a gunships base damage from 1600 to 1595.

C: Add a defensive companion passive (for all ships) that grants 10% hull hp.

 

TLDR: The problem with one shotting is entirely the low hp pool and how easy it is to bypass shields. There would be a viable and usable scout build that would avoid most one-shots if scout hp (or gunship damage) were altered by only 5hp.

Edited December 10, 2013 by Lord_Of_Sith

[Brewski]

... a lot of cool numbers I cut out ...

 

TLDR: The problem with one shotting is entirely the low hp pool and how easy it is to bypass shields. There would be a viable and usable scout build that would avoid most one-shots if scout hp (or gunship damage) were altered by only 5hp.

Excellent analysis. If you still have the numbers up and it's easy to do, I would be interested in seeing what the effect of slowly lowering the Bypass shield penetration level. Say at 30%, 25% and 20% for example.

 

I do agree that Bypass is a bit OP, and I think it's not just gunships that are benefiting from it. Heck, I run with it on my scout to bring down gunships faster. If dropping it's boost to 30% or a bit lower would remove the no-crit-one-shot, it would be a worthy tweak.

[Arll]

The only problem I have with gunships is how they are designed. I was so thrilled of a dog-fight space fighting matches. I wanted to be reminded of the good old X-wing, Tie-fighter series but what did I get when I entered a match? It was half of enemy team sitting on other side of the map next to floating asteroids, shooting laser beams at people from relative distance. And if they got one scratch into their shields they would bugger off into a safe zone.

 

So what I got instead of X-Wing was Call of Duty: Space Ships, space ships with snipe lasors next to asteroids instead of high caliber toting snipers in bushes, sitting still, waiting for something to shoot. (Maybe Call of Duty: Space Ships is bit too harsh but snipers... in a dog fighting gamemode? Reaaally?)

 

This, so much this.

 

Remember all the imperial ships camping in the death star trench rotating round just sniping?

 

No, they had big honking turrets for that.

[renegadeimp]

The game isnt about dogfighting. Why cant you people get that into your heads? It is objective based gameplay. If it was pure dogfighting, i guarantee there wouldnt be many players at all in GSF. There is a range of ships, and more to come, to cater for everyones playstyle.

 

It's sad that people still think OBJECTIVE based maps are deathmatchs

[TUXs]

Which is what I do regularly in my agile little scout. Most of these guys never saw what hit 'em.

 

It's my #1 goal in space as well. I LOVE sneaking up on them as they sit perfectly still waiting for me to F1, X and blast them to bits. Most don't even move

[Mazikeen]

I'm curious to know what all the whining is about. Gunships are a purely offensive ship. They were designed this way, it's working as intended.

 

Some ships are more upgraded than others, sure, but how is that any different than a level 55 regular PvPer in max gear going up against a casual PvPer in 66/69 PvE gear? Explain to me how Gunships are any different than Snipers.

[Mazikeen]

The game isnt about dogfighting. Why cant you people get that into your heads? It is objective based gameplay. If it was pure dogfighting, i guarantee there wouldnt be many players at all in GSF. There is a range of ships, and more to come, to cater for everyones playstyle.

 

It's sad that people still think OBJECTIVE based maps are deathmatchs

 

What's even worse is that normal Warzones are the same thing and people fail at those because they just want to pewpew more than any other reason. I cannot begin to tell you how many games I have been in where no one guarded a WZ node, or left one person to guard while an opponent sneaks up and obliterated them.

[ArchangelLBC]

TLDR: The problem with one shotting is entirely the low hp pool and how easy it is to bypass shields. There would be a viable and usable scout build that would avoid most one-shots if scout hp (or gunship damage) were altered by only 5hp.

 

I also want to quote this as providing excellent analysis (which I won't quote all of right now), and applauding the conclusions. I would support boosting scout HP because direct nerfs are almost always bad (hence no nerf to bypass or GS base damage).