Pull - baseline ability for Shadows/Sin.

[Knightlyyy]

Bringing this discussion to this part of the galaxy. PSA - just thinking about Arenas for how this change will affect the game. PVE - DGAF. Warzones - afterthought to any competitive player. So just Arenas here, folks.

 

Make this happen Bioware! Shadows/Sins are NOT OP in the utility department despite how much *amazing utility* people claim they possess! Majority of them probably have never even played the class! Sheesh.

 

This discussion obviously does not apply to the Tanking tree; as it already possesses the Pull ability.

 

Thereby; think of how this change would affect Deception/Madness Assassins.

 

Next, realize that Madness Assassins are obsolete so you can forget about them as well.

 

________________________________________

 

 

So, let us just think about this in terms of how Pull being a baseline ability would affect Full Deception and 0/31/15.

 

Although it is not difficult to *stay on target* as a skilled Assassin, it is not as easy to do so as any other melee DPS class! Think about it:

 

Marauder - EZ MODE to the extreme, too many things to mention as to why it is EZ MODE.

 

Juggernaut - incoming buff to Veng tree that will make it boring easy to stay on target. Rage tree... no comment. EZ MODE.

 

PT - with a Pull being a baseline ability with low CD and HTL w/ great uptime; multiple ranged attacks as a *melee* class; also EZ MODE.

 

Assassin - 1 slow ability that requires a GCD and requires skill points in order to buff to a reasonable level.

> So the lone thing that *apparently* solves all possible mobility disparities is Force Speed.

> I don't feel like I *need* the Pull because mobility is THAT bad; I do feel like getting the pull as a baseline ability would not be OP, though.

 

 

 

Despite what all of the self-proclaimed pro's say that represent the class but probably do not even play it, Deception Assassin's do NOT have overwhelming utility!!! Read it and weep.

 

Taunts - powerful utility, funny to me how people will ALWAYS include this as a utility that a class has yet MAJORITY of players barely use this utility and if they did they use it VERY poorly. Not setting up a system with focus targeting with intent to optimize your taunts... getting 5k protection in a 3 round arena game, **** like that.

 

Low Slash - can't argue anything here, great ability. THE ability that makes the Deception's utility worth batting an eyelash.

 

Knock back - powerful utility, nothing special though as most classes possess a knock back. It is not as useful as the Merc/Sorc knock back though as it does not *necessarily* contribute to the Assassin's play style as being a class whom needs to *stay in range* and *creating range* in majority of scenarios is not a positive thing.

 

WW - 2 second cast, requires great skill cap in order to know WHEN to use it, WHO to use it on, and the ability to actually get this ability OFF against skilled opponents. I could count the number of Sins/Shadows who use this ability in Arenas on ONE hand. What a joke.

 

Interrupt - all classes have interrupt, even Mercs.

 

Force Slow - this shouldn't even get acknowledged.

 

Out of Combat Knockdown - limited value.

 

So Deception has Taunts and Low Slash. Ok, would giving them a Pull make them OP? Not by a long shot, especially if it were tired to a 1-minute CD.

 

Pull being a baseline ability would really make Deception/Madness more creative to play, even though I find Assassin to be the most creative class to play already, and it would NOT make them OP! 2.5 brings THOUGHTLESS changes to the Assassin class with respect to Deception/Madness trees.

 

Deception/Madness should be given a team utility buff! Pull being a baseline ability would essentially be a team buff as it is an ability worth game planing around. Personally I would prefer Pull rather than a trauma/armor debuff being given to the Assassin DPS trees.

 

 

 

I think I'm just rambling at this point. Any thoughts? I know there are so many people jumping at the bit to tell me how R-tard I am.

Edited November 19, 2013 by Knightlyyy

[Knightlyyy]

Pull + Knockback + Phase Walk + Environment = Endless Creativity.

 

That is what I yearn for.

 

Thanks for reading.

[Zoom_VI]

Deception is borderline OP at best, and many consider it straight up OP.

 

also no it does not need a pull, force speed not a good enough gap closer for ya?

[Knightlyyy]

Deception is borderline OP at best, and many consider it straight up OP.

 

also no it does not need a pull, force speed not a good enough gap closer for ya?

 

Do you play high level arenas? Deception is OP in that scene? News to me.

 

A 2-second speed boost makes all other classes' mobilities just pale in comparison, interesting...

 

Also this reminds me - Deception does not possess any way to break roots, another key fact.

 

Anyone care to explain how Deception's mobility is anything above or even average in a competitive scene? I'm all ears, seriously.

Edited November 19, 2013 by Knightlyyy

[Badieh]

Do you play high level arenas? Deception is OP in that scene? News to me.

 

A 2-second speed boost makes all other classes' mobilities just pale in comparison, interesting...

 

Also this reminds me - Deception does not possess any way to break roots, another key fact.

 

Anyone care to explain how Deception's mobility is anything above or even average in a competitive scene? I'm all ears, seriously.

 

If my memory serves me right, the skill that makes us immune to force attacks breaks roots, as well as any other debuffs.

 

Now onto the real topic. Assassins got some great utilities, especially the tank tree. As a deception player, I do miss the ability to break root on force speed in the tank tree, however, if we have all the utilities + amazing damage as deception, this would makes us OP. Right now we can hold our ground well while still dishing out good damage.

[LadyDarkkitten]

No all sins dont need pulls. thats not the issue sins face. Sins need better sustained damage to be competitive in pvp. Burst is easy to be shut down wether its guard/taunt CC saberreflect whatever and its very easy to find yrself at the wrong end of a kiting dual with a decent sage/trooper using hold the line. Pull wont help, sustained damage output buffs would. Frankly I cant think of why you would want pull anyhow? why not ask for a hand of freedom style cd, shorter cd/ longer duration on force speed or, frankly, give us hydro overrides? pull is the worst way to close the gap with a kiter.

[Digimanbyte_ID]

Pull + Knockback + Phase Walk + Environment = Endless Creativity.

 

That is what I yearn for.

 

Thanks for reading.

 

Really? You want a class that nuke down a a non tank's health so it can now stick on us like a grenade? You must be playing this class wrong because I see a lot of great shadow/*** (pun intended) just rip apart ranged like they were paper planes.

 

You have stealth to boot and if you can't use that right you are better off playing another class. Because shadows/*** are already the most versatile and deadly class I have faced in PvP, they really know how to control a fight before its even started and my only hope is to spot them first and break them openers to get a chance. If you can't learn to freaking retreat or pick off stragglers in competitive PvP then you should play another class.

[PloGreen]

No. All sins do not need a pull - for tanking it makes sense.

 

The last thing sages need right now is sins that aren't tanks being able to pull them as well as hurt them from stealth, ask any sage when two assassins open on you in arena it's not exactly ez mode to deal with them. Now you want pull as a baseline ability because other melee have better gap closers - only you forget vanguards, guardians, don't have stealth. Sents have an escape with stealth but it doesn't last forever, where as you can just vanish and hide, sap and pick your battles. You also have decent cc and control.

 

As for people wanting better sustained damage for sins - ye fine as long as they tone your opening burst down if they do - you can't have both, and stealth. Otherwise your class becomes op. That's how the class was designed.

Edited November 19, 2013 by PloGreen

[tekhiun]

I like how OP claims to be competitive, yet plays the most OP and EZ mode class in the game and wants a buff.

 

3/10

[Citinetty]

0/10

 

you must be seriously joking. Deception/Infiltration diserves a nerf, but getting a buff for "sustained" as a Stealth Burst Class. This alone is hilarious. And now you want that Pull as Baseline Ability?

 

i lol'ed hard.

 

Next Assasin/Shadow want autocrit for Maul, i see it comin. Cause they doing so poor damage. KK ^^

[Raansu]

I'm not against the idea, but I also don't really believe deception needs it either. Would be nice to have for huttball since respec is gone but as far as arenas go it wouldn't really have that big of an impact. One of those "I wish I had it but I don't really need it" scenarios. Its similar with my vanguard. I'd love to have storm as a baseline ability but I don't particularly think the dps specs need it either, but either way I don't feel making those abilities baseline would drastically change anything and suddenly make them OP either. Can't really complain about adding utility for other classes when I run around with my sentinel with awe,rebuke,saber ward,pacify,gbtf,camo... So ya, making those abilities baseline would be fine really.

[Badieh]

0/10

 

you must be seriously joking. Deception/Infiltration diserves a nerf, but getting a buff for "sustained" as a Stealth Burst Class. This alone is hilarious. And now you want that Pull as Baseline Ability?

 

i lol'ed hard.

 

Next Assasin/Shadow want autocrit for Maul, i see it comin. Cause they doing so poor damage. KK ^^

 

Let's not go too far, shall we? The OP is demanding stuff that aren't feasible, true, however, assassins don't deserve a nerf. If you could endure the opening burst, the efficiency of the assassin will start to greatly degrade.

[Glower]

Pull, Knock back, Force Speed and Phase Walk?

 

No no no!

 

Also, Operative DPS has only... a roll and not-so-fast speed buff in concealment tree!! So NO NO NO!

Edited November 19, 2013 by Glower

[Technohic]

I don't really think assassins need it but I am for things that seperate healers from tanks more.

[Yeochins]

Let's not go too far, shall we? The OP is demanding stuff that aren't feasible, true, however, assassins don't deserve a nerf. If you could endure the opening burst, the efficiency of the assassin will start to greatly degrade.

 

Wrong.

 

There are just far too many bad Assassins out there (I have a shadow). People complain about an Assassin being shut out of his initial burst. We have the ability to burst twice. If both openers go successfully that is over 20K health from a 30K health toon. If not you're still up with 10K+, force shroud, force speed, low slash, a stun, and force slow.

 

The reason you don't see many assassins topping the arena's is because we're all used to doing things alone. Very few assassin players have a solid grasp on team work. You don't need sustained damage if your dishing out 10K and your 2 fellow DPS are also dishing that damage out to a single target.

 

When focus fire doesn't work you're likely the one to blame because you neglected to mez the healer before unloading your burst - or you failed to correctly keep a healer from healing (scoundrel/operative). A large reason why Assassins are currently failing in Arena's is primarily to do with people failing at the Assassin class.

Edited November 19, 2013 by Yeochins

[olcraft]

Bringing this discussion to this part of the galaxy. PSA - just thinking about Arenas for how this change will affect the game. PVE - DGAF. Warzones - afterthought to any competitive player. So just Arenas here, folks.

 

Make this happen Bioware! Shadows/Sins are NOT OP in the utility department despite how much *amazing utility* people claim they possess! Majority of them probably have never even played the class! Sheesh.

 

This discussion obviously does not apply to the Tanking tree; as it already possesses the Pull ability.

 

Thereby; think of how this change would affect Deception/Madness Assassins.

 

Next, realize that Madness Assassins are obsolete so you can forget about them as well.

 

________________________________________

 

 

So, let us just think about this in terms of how Pull being a baseline ability would affect Full Deception and 0/31/15.

 

Although it is not difficult to *stay on target* as a skilled Assassin, it is not as easy to do so as any other melee DPS class! Think about it:

 

Marauder - EZ MODE to the extreme, too many things to mention as to why it is EZ MODE.

 

Juggernaut - incoming buff to Veng tree that will make it boring easy to stay on target. Rage tree... no comment. EZ MODE.

 

PT - with a Pull being a baseline ability with low CD and HTL w/ great uptime; multiple ranged attacks as a *melee* class; also EZ MODE.

 

Assassin - 1 slow ability that requires a GCD and requires skill points in order to buff to a reasonable level.

> So the lone thing that *apparently* solves all possible mobility disparities is Force Speed.

> I don't feel like I *need* the Pull because mobility is THAT bad; I do feel like getting the pull as a baseline ability would not be OP, though.

 

 

 

Despite what all of the self-proclaimed pro's say that represent the class but probably do not even play it, Deception Assassin's do NOT have overwhelming utility!!! Read it and weep.

 

Taunts - powerful utility, funny to me how people will ALWAYS include this as a utility that a class has yet MAJORITY of players barely use this utility and if they did they use it VERY poorly. Not setting up a system with focus targeting with intent to optimize your taunts... getting 5k protection in a 3 round arena game, **** like that.

 

Low Slash - can't argue anything here, great ability. THE ability that makes the Deception's utility worth batting an eyelash.

 

Knock back - powerful utility, nothing special though as most classes possess a knock back. It is not as useful as the Merc/Sorc knock back though as it does not *necessarily* contribute to the Assassin's play style as being a class whom needs to *stay in range* and *creating range* in majority of scenarios is not a positive thing.

 

WW - 2 second cast, requires great skill cap in order to know WHEN to use it, WHO to use it on, and the ability to actually get this ability OFF against skilled opponents. I could count the number of Sins/Shadows who use this ability in Arenas on ONE hand. What a joke.

 

Interrupt - all classes have interrupt, even Mercs.

 

Force Slow - this shouldn't even get acknowledged.

 

Out of Combat Knockdown - limited value.

 

So Deception has Taunts and Low Slash. Ok, would giving them a Pull make them OP? Not by a long shot, especially if it were tired to a 1-minute CD.

 

Pull being a baseline ability would really make Deception/Madness more creative to play, even though I find Assassin to be the most creative class to play already, and it would NOT make them OP! 2.5 brings THOUGHTLESS changes to the Assassin class with respect to Deception/Madness trees.

 

Deception/Madness should be given a team utility buff! Pull being a baseline ability would essentially be a team buff as it is an ability worth game planing around. Personally I would prefer Pull rather than a trauma/armor debuff being given to the Assassin DPS trees.

 

 

 

I think I'm just rambling at this point. Any thoughts? I know there are so many people jumping at the bit to tell me how R-tard I am.

 

Adding some team utilities to sins are fine. But it is pretty obvious you are not experienced at playing as a marauder or a vengeance juggernaut. Go try playing these classes (at least lvl 55) more before you say anything bad about them. Would you like to hear me caling for massive nerfs to ridiculously OP deception sin class when it is obvious that I've never had a lvl 55 deception assassin?

[Xanas]

The OP is just posting nonsense... Giving pull to all specs is like giving guardians the 4 second stun from tanking tree to all trees... Actually I think it would be worse... Shadows are in a good spot right now if you can play them.

[TonyDragonflame]

Please make Unremitting/unstoppable and 4 sec hilt strike stun as baseline ability for guardian/jugg.

 

KKthxbye.

[Knightlyyy]

Looking to hear from someone who can argue how Shadows/Sins have mobility that is on par with other classes when Force Speed is the only thing worth praising:

 

- they do not possess any means to break roots (other than Force Shroud, go ahead and blow FS on a root; good idea)

- only possess a SINGLE target slow must be specced into to actually be worth anything and requires a GCD

 

Tell me why a DPS Assassin would be horrendously OP with a Pull ability on 1-minute CD? I would really like to know this. PT's get Pull as a baseline ability and they harbor numerous ranged abilities.

 

I would love for someone to explain to me why a PT deserves a Pull as baseline ability and an Assassin does not.

 

Cheers.

[Knightlyyy]

No. All sins do not need a pull - for tanking it makes sense.

 

The last thing sages need right now is sins that aren't tanks being able to pull them as well as hurt them from stealth, ask any sage when two assassins open on you in arena it's not exactly ez mode to deal with them. Now you want pull as a baseline ability because other melee have better gap closers - only you forget vanguards, guardians, don't have stealth. Sents have an escape with stealth but it doesn't last forever, where as you can just vanish and hide, sap and pick your battles. You also have decent cc and control.

 

As for people wanting better sustained damage for sins - ye fine as long as they tone your opening burst down if they do - you can't have both, and stealth. Otherwise your class becomes op. That's how the class was designed.

 

 

 

Are you looking at this conversation from the perspective of Warzones and Arenas?

 

I am looking purely from the perspective of Arenas. I am looking from the perspective of GROUP Arenas.

 

Stealth has little to NO utility in Arenas other than from the initial start of match by sapping someone - although that being said; no good team is going to let a sap foil their efforts so it is hardly worth mentioning.

 

There are other points to discuss about your post but I grow old and weary...

[Knightlyyy]

I like how OP claims to be competitive, yet plays the most OP and EZ mode class in the game and wants a buff.

 

3/10

 

Lmao.

 

I'm looking forward to you uploading a video for us all to see how EZ MODE you make Assassins look in Group Arenas.

[Knightlyyy]

I'm not against the idea, but I also don't really believe deception needs it either. Would be nice to have for huttball since respec is gone but as far as arenas go it wouldn't really have that big of an impact. One of those "I wish I had it but I don't really need it" scenarios. Its similar with my vanguard. I'd love to have storm as a baseline ability but I don't particularly think the dps specs need it either, but either way I don't feel making those abilities baseline would drastically change anything and suddenly make them OP either. Can't really complain about adding utility for other classes when I run around with my sentinel with awe,rebuke,saber ward,pacify,gbtf,camo... So ya, making those abilities baseline would be fine really.

 

Cheers, for the thoughtful and unbaised post.

[Knightlyyy]

Adding some team utilities to sins are fine. But it is pretty obvious you are not experienced at playing as a marauder or a vengeance juggernaut. Go try playing these classes (at least lvl 55) more before you say anything bad about them. Would you like to hear me caling for massive nerfs to ridiculously OP deception sin class when it is obvious that I've never had a lvl 55 deception assassin?

 

What did I say bad about Mara/Jugg? I was comparing their mobility versus Assassin's, and their's is in a much better place. If you would like to argue that I would be more than willing to listen.

 

Ask a Sorc/Merc who is easier to peel, a Shadow/Sin or a Warrior class/spec.....

Ask any experienced Arena team which classes/specs are easy to peel against.....

Edited November 19, 2013 by Knightlyyy

[Sideblaze]

Two words. ****. No.

[NogueiraA]

You're missing that assassin/shadow is the class with more crowd control in the game.