''Lol Pandas''...(and the hubris of the commnitty)

[CosmicKat]

WoW players love WoW.

 

Everyone else hates it and wants nothing like it. Many failed and underperforming clones of WoW later, the industry still hasn't figured out this simple fact. TOR should be the last one ever made. It's WoW with a popular IP, all brand new and shiny and still can't keep 10% of WoW's sub numbers. It should be ultimate proof that WoW clones are a license to fail.

[ImpactHound]

WoW is popular because they can make fun of their own game. The TOR community is so rigid about "cannon" they can't see the fun they are sucking out of the game.

 

I'm particularly fond of the Netherwing races where the two Wing commanders from AV make an appearance and complain about PVP and map imbalances as though they were players. Very self aware & humble.

[BadOrb]

WoW players love WoW.

 

Everyone else hates it and wants nothing like it. Many failed and underperforming clones of WoW later, the industry still hasn't figured out this simple fact. TOR should be the last one ever made. It's WoW with a popular IP, all brand new and shiny and still can't keep 10% of WoW's sub numbers. It should be ultimate proof that WoW clones are a license to fail.

 

Well it's a shame it wasn't then , Final Fantasy a realm reborn says so. Not sure what their sub numbers are I think I read they had 1.5 mil registered users recently though.

 

Cheers,

 

BadOrb.

[Cyberwoman]

TOR was launched shortly after the announcement of the ''Lol Pandas'' expansion (1). At this time, the forums were sure that TOR would utterly destroy WOW.

 

Yet, the other game announced yesterday to still have 7.6 millions subs (stabilized from last report), without any ''trick'' like the Annual Pass, and they are on the verge to announce (likely tomorrow) Expansion V (which will be way more impressive than Hutt Cartel or Starfighter...)

 

I am curious as to why you think that, especially as Starfighter isn't even out yet! I mean, surely it is for the player to decide what is better, given how opinions can differ wildly.

 

Anyway, WoW has had a big loss in subs, but I don't think the whole 'panda' thing was the sole reason why. Back before even WotLK, I remember the Pandaren being the most request playable race on almost all of the forums, yet when they finally add them and their world, the community went nuts with rage and frankly childish rants. It is one of the reasons why I rarely take gaming communities seriously anymore. I would suspect that the decline in WoW is more to do with the fact the game is getting rather old for such a commercially available game (Unlike the more niche titles with smaller but loyal player bases) and perhaps because MMO games have become far more common and affordable in recent years, meaning there is more choice in the market. I do still play WoW, but not nearly as much as I used to, and that is not because of Pandas or anything (In fact, I would say MoP is my favorite expansion yet!) it is solely because SWTOR has become my favorite MMO (And I suppose uni has something to do with it too ).

 

Of course, that is just my armchair analysis. I don't think anyone here will have the answer to the question (Unless they work in the hart of the gaming industry and have some sort of complicated mathematics degree.) To be honest, I do not care how many more players play WoW or any other game. I play the games that I want, no matter how popular they are. You would think by reading some of the posts on the forum that SWTOR is dead and buried, and I am sure some would just love to dance on its grave, but they are going to have to wait. It may not be the 'killer' people expected, but it has a healthy player base and is constantly being updated with new content (and not just CM stuff) and I do hope it keeps expanding for many years to come!

Edited November 7, 2013 by Cyberwoman

[AshlaBoga]

For this statement to be true, WoW had to have invented the style of MMO this game is based off of....sadly what the majority of people who say this fail to realize....is that WOW DIDNT INVENT THIS STYLE OF MMO, they copied it from MMOs that were successful in the past.

 

They copied it from EQ, Asheron's Call and the like. But THEY MADE IT MORE CASUAL FRIENDLY.

And yes, I'm aware that Vanilla WoW was MUCH LESS CASUAL FRIENDLY THAN WotLK onward, it was still more casual friendly than EQ. Also it was the timing. The mmo market was getting new people who were interested in starting out - and WoW happened to launch at the perfect time.

[Neoforcer]

TOR was launched shortly after the announcement of the ''Lol Pandas'' expansion (1). At this time, the forums were sure that TOR would utterly destroy WOW.

 

Yet, the other game announced yesterday to still have 7.6 millions subs (stabilized from last report), without any ''trick'' like the Annual Pass, and they are on the verge to announce (likely tomorrow) Expansion V (which will be way more impressive than Hutt Cartel or Starfighter...)

 

What we did wrong, and what Blizzard did good ?

 

(1)The point being that the ''Pandas'' were widely ridiculed, and yet, at the end of the expansion, WOW still have between three and four times more sub than TOR at it's prime.

 

Here an outlook on sub numbers for WOW

11.5 million Wrath of the Lich King

9.1 million after Cataclysm

7.6 millions Panda land

 

Looks Like to me WOW is in a decline and it been that way since wraith BC being the best expansion ever. SO WOW is killing WOW with every expansion. This coming from a Wow player i played in bc all the way to panda land. Guess what Wow is a old dinosaur that's on it way out.

 

As for you OP you sound like your a paid forum poster for blizzard.

Edited November 7, 2013 by Neoforcer

[Vandicus]

Well it's a shame it wasn't then , Final Fantasy a realm reborn says so. Not sure what their sub numbers are I think I read they had 1.5 mil registered users recently though.

 

Cheers,

 

BadOrb.

 

Not following the conversation in the context of the thread, but latest numbers put them around 600k

 

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/the-current-state-of-ffxiv-and-square-enix-s-plans-for-future-dragon-quest-games/1100-6416016/

 

I figure they're currently going through their heavy attrition cycle.

[Quraswren]

Not following the conversation in the context of the thread, but latest numbers put them around 600k

 

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/the-current-state-of-ffxiv-and-square-enix-s-plans-for-future-dragon-quest-games/1100-6416016/

 

I figure they're currently going through their heavy attrition cycle.

 

My understanding on the reboot is they were only shooting for 500K subs to have a profitable MMO after the horrible original lunch. I don't think they ever expected millions of subs. They at least reached that goal.

 

For WOW though, while it's a decent game, you don't lose 4.4 millions subs for being great but you can hold onto subs if your players are addicted and don't want to give up what they accumulated over 6+ years.

 

So, I'm not shocked to see them only lose 100K subs. I think from this point on we will see something similar except for when the expansion launches.

[Brickabrack]

Just because TOR didn't do as well as many hoped doesn't make Panda's less ridiculous (in a funny way) in WoW.

 

I was certainly one of the idiots who thought TOR would do better than it has, but NO ONE thought TOR would kill WoW. I believe one of the popular sayings at the time by one of the posters here was "Let WoW be WoW. Let TOR be TOR." Or something along those lines. Meaning they are different games and they would succeed or fail on their own.

 

I don't see TOR as the lost cause the OP of this thread paints it as. It still has a lot of potential and the developers seem like they are still willing to add more to it.

[Angedechu]

Oh, yes, obviously, I'm paid by Blizzard. That one is new

 

And btw, I don't doubt WOW is in decline. I said, which is a huge nuance, that WOW deals better with it than TOR

 

Mocking a game that lost 30-40% of its subs over two years is ridiculous when our game lost 75% in six months.

Edited November 7, 2013 by Angedechu

[LordArtemis]

I personally felt that two specific choices WoW made caused the losses...with a third making it worse.

 

The first mistake was the implementation of Arenas and the effect it had on the general playerbase...namely the constant balance changes to abilities that had classes changing fundamentally every few months. Even Blizzard admitted this was a mistake.

 

The second, IMO, was the squandering of an opportunity to introduce a third faction with the WotLK expansion. People loved being able to play a truly evil character in Wrath under the Lich King...at least it appears that way, but you were then forced to choose between Alliance or Horde. Later the Lich King became a raid boss.

 

The third mistake that appears to have caused player losses to gain momentum was the change to the entire game world with Cataclysm. Seems like players did not react as favorably to the world changes as Blizzard had predicted they would.

 

Those three reasons are contributing factors, IMO, as to why they have lost almost half their population since WotLK.

[Vandicus]

I said, which is a huge nuance, that WOW deals better with it than TOR

 

 

What exactly are you referring to here? My biggest personal critique of WoW and Blizzard in terms of a business is that they never effectively monetized their game. It could have made much more money than it has. Although they have taken steps to rectify this recently(working on a cash shop), they took an absurd amount of time to do so.

[Stradlin]

First of all, where do you get this statement that the forums were sure that TOR would utterly destroy WOW?

 

 

That was the prevailing gist of it. It was and is clear EA had no intention to make anything but market leader or, at the very least, introduce another sub-based heavy weighter. This is the future community was sure TOR had set before it.

 

On very regular and consistant basis, over and over again, when somebody on forums mentioned, say, Eve Online as an example of how mechanic Y could be handled, it got dismissed by remarks like " Well, sure. But it is just a niche game with barely 400k subs?" Anyone who spend any time on pre-launch forums at all got very clear picture that we, as collective, expected and assumed a game that would immediately captivate several millions. I remember getting ridiculed and accused of pessimism when I repeatedly claimed game would be a great success if it managed to stabilize at 1 mil.

 

 

In March of 2011, WOW had 11.4 million subs. If WOW is now down to 7.6 million subs, then they've lost 1/3 of their subs in that time. If you think Blizzard is happy with that or patting themselves on the back over that, then I have some swamp land in Florida for sale that might interest you.

 

 

Thinking Blizzard isn't quite happy with 10 year old game having over 7 mil subs is similar to figuring Roman Empire was an utter fail since it split and then even Eastern side only lasted for a thousand of years.

 

I'm pretty sure that if we assume Blizzard will not, within our life time, pull the plug of WoW, game would have more subscribers in 2033 than TOR has today.

Edited November 7, 2013 by Stradlin

[Vandicus]

 

Thinking Blizzard isn't quite happy with 10 year old game having over 7 mil subs is a good example of " Roman Empire is a failure..even Eastern half of it lasted only 1000 years?" type of thinking.

 

I'm sure Activision Blizzard is ecstatic over earning 56 million this quarter as compared to 226 million the same quarter last year.

[Ren_simp]

Wow had somthing like 12 mill subs during wotlk 2 expansions later and they have lost over 5 milling subs

It's dying a slow death

[Onyxus]

Who cares

 

If you like SWTOR play that, if you like WoW play that... it's like with any game

Edited November 7, 2013 by Onyxus

[GalacticKegger]

whats your point in this post

 

you feel better now ?

All troll call all the time.

At one point, WoW had 13 million subscribers. That is a lot of money. Money that lets you do things that other games without that amount of money can not.

 

But remember, WoW at one point had a subscriber base under one million. They didn't start with 13 million players, they built up to it. As their base grew so to did their ability to spend more money to make more money.

 

The problem with gamers nowadays is that they expect WoW-like stuff from launch and that will never, ever happen.

 

Also, the current sub numbers mean that WoW has lost nearly half of their high point. Half. That is a ton of lost revenue that should be a clue that maybe everything in WoW land isn't all sunshine and happiness. Right now it is rolling along on momentum and the 800lb gorilla is getting old and hasn't learned any real new tricks lately.

QFT. Should get some mileage too from the water army picking it apart. Edited November 7, 2013 by GalacticKegger

[Lunafox]

THEY MADE BIG SEXY PANDAS!!!!!

 

unlike this dumb game were all the races can be described as

Human

human with horns(zabrak)

human with tentacles(sith)

blue human(chiss)

emo human(ratataki)

blind human

green human

human with slight fur

 

You forgot,

human with metallic bits (cyborg)

human with head things (twi'lek)

[Darkulous]

It's kinda weird what happened. Before TOR was released people accused it of being a WoW clone and a Themepark MMO. Well, TOR released and it failed being either one of those two things imo. I firmly believe that if TOR was an exact copy of WoW, they would have more subs then they do now.

 

Now, I understand players love this game as it is and I'm glad for them. I think it's a good game too. I'm a huge Star Wars fan and I would like nothing more then to play a SW MMO only but this game isn't great enough to give me that.

[Stradlin]

Wow had somthing like 12 mill subs during wotlk 2 expansions later and they have lost over 5 milling subs

It's dying a slow death

 

Everything that lives is dying a slow death. *gloom* One of the pretty convincing reminders of sheer scale WoW has is how western MMO that has..what, TEN TO TWENTY TIMES the subs of it's competitors is 'dying.'

 

 

I'd like to introduce you Law of Stradlin. it is thought up by a renowned thinker, philosopher and mathematican named Stradlin.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Z divided by 100=Y

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

 

- Z is average amount of active subscribers MMO had during the year when it reached peak of it's popularity.

- Y is amount of lifetimers - People to whom this particular MMO is and was a dream come true. It was love at first sight. They don't want or need another MMO. Also includes (and largely consists of-) people who are emotionally so attached to the game they simply refuse to let themselves stop paying and/or playing. These people stay aboard til either they or their game dies. They'd prolly love it if the game remains in active dev, gets new content and new players on regular basis. If it doesn't..they don't mind that too much.

 

Above isn't entirely pulled off my arse; it is result of few polls I ended up doing among Ultima Online community earlier this year. It is astonishing how loyal, old and persistent community that game has. Almost one third of people I spoke with had began playing their sub fees in 90s. close at dawn of Internet.. Without a pause between now and then. UO still has a very small dev team but it hasn't gotten significant amounts of new life or new content poured in in at least 5 years.

 

I find this a very cautious formula.. It doesn't try to look three years ahead or 6 years ahead but rather all the way up until ppl playing reach their RL level cap:p

 

WoW had average of 11 million players when it peaked in popularity. I think it is perfectly safe to say there currently lives around 100k people who will remain WoW subs til the day they(or the game) dies.

 

I recon amount of people who will NEVER quit WoW is greater than amount of people who currently sub. to TOR.

Edited November 7, 2013 by Stradlin

[reclipsed]

Wow had somthing like 12 mill subs during wotlk 2 expansions later and they have lost over 5 milling subs

It's dying a slow death

 

 

Yes it is, until WOW 2 comes out, then it'll gain 3-6 million back. Losing 4x the number of subs of most mmos is still successful.

 

 

I'm not a wow fanboy, but I am a mmo fanboy. I like to double/triple dip my fun times.

[mithrelkhaar]

Everything that lives is dying a slow death. *gloom* One of the pretty convincing reminders of sheer scale WoW has is how western MMO that has..what, TEN TO TWENTY TIMES the subs of it's competitors is 'dying.'

 

 

I'd like to introduce you Law of Stradlin. it is thought up by a renowned thinker, philosopher and mathematican named Stradlin.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Z divided by 100=Y

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

 

- Z is average amount of active subscribers MMO had during the year when it reached peak of it's popularity.

- Y is amount of lifetimers - People to whom this particular MMO is and was a dream come true. It was love at first sight. They don't want or need another MMO. Also includes (and largely consists of-) people who are emotionally so attached to the game they simply refuse to let themselves stop paying and/or playing. These people stay aboard til either they or their game dies.

 

Above isn't entirely pulled off my arse; it is result of few polls I ended up doing among Ultima Online community earlier this year. It is astonishing how loyal, old and persistent community that game has. Almost one third of people I spoke with had began playing their sub fees in 90s. close at dawn of Internet.. Without a pause between now and then. UO still has a very small dev team but it hasn't gotten significant amounts of new life or new content poured in in at least 5 years.

 

I find this a very cautious formula.. It doesn't try to look three years ahead or 6 years ahead but rather all the way up until ppl playing reach their RL level cap:p

 

WoW had average of 11 million players when it peaked in popularity. I think it is perfectly safe to say there currently lives around 100k people who will remain WoW subs til the day they(or the game) dies.

 

I recon amount of people who will NEVER quit WoW is greater than amount of people who currently sub. to TOR.

 

Nice fancy math followed by a statement that is most certainly untrue

 

You really think that there are less than 100k people subbed to TOR currently?

 

I wouldn't be so bold as to think that Bioware would give me exact sub numbers, but would be more than bold enough to think that Bioware could easily confirm there are well over 100k people subbed to TOR

[Stradlin]

Nice fancy math followed by a statement that is most certainly untrue

 

You really think that there are less than 100k people subbed to TOR currently?

 

I wouldn't be so bold as to think that Bioware would give me exact sub numbers, but would be more than bold enough to think that Bioware could easily confirm there are well over 100k people subbed to TOR

 

I would - guess - it has stabilized around there. See-sawing between 100 and 150k, depending on wether there's a brand new expansion out etc.

[Angedechu]

Okay, I will rephrase

 

WOW is in decline (it's really not a big surprise after 10 years). What boggles me is that WOW vastly derided last expansion, ''lol Pandas'' have better retention rates than TOR. (35% customer base lost in 2 years is awful for most businesses, not so bad for a game so ancient. However, you don't mock a game losing 35% in two years while we lost more than 75% over the same period with a brand new game)

 

WOW is ten years old. TOR is not even two years old. We should beat WOW out of water. We are not.

Edited November 7, 2013 by Angedechu

[CrazyMcGee]

TOR was launched shortly after the announcement of the ''Lol Pandas'' expansion (1). At this time, the forums were sure that TOR would utterly destroy WOW.

 

Yet, the other game announced yesterday to still have 7.6 millions subs (stabilized from last report), without any ''trick'' like the Annual Pass, and they are on the verge to announce (likely tomorrow) Expansion V (which will be way more impressive than Hutt Cartel or Starfighter...)

 

What we did wrong, and what Blizzard did good ?

 

(1)The point being that the ''Pandas'' were widely ridiculed, and yet, at the end of the expansion, WOW still have between three and four times more sub than TOR at it's prime.

 

SWTOR Rules of Conduct

“Trolling,” which we define as posts or threads that knowingly lead to overly strong, negative, and emotional responses for mere shock value, is not allowed on the Service.

 

You want to play WOW? Play WOW. You want to talk about how great WOW is? Try the WOW forums.

 

Read the quote from the Rules of Conduct. This is absolutely trolling and you should stop it.

 

I enjoy TOR, I play TOR and I come to the TOR forums to talk about TOR. TOR did not do something "wrong". You are clearly saying that for "mere shock value" to "knowingly lead to overly strong, negative and emotional responses".