Operative DPS Brainstorming

[Racter]

I'm afraid my earlier survivability suggestions still won't be enough. We're going to need flat DR. Tried running lethality tonight with the shield probe set bonus and the damage reduction from the healing tree. Got sat on till I died and our tank died from guard damage in the process. I had infusion on my self, two kolto probes ticking and infusion from the healer and still got gaped by two taunted DPS.

 

 

We have got to get blackout and 30% AOE DR. We just take entirely too much damage to use us. The only possible way either of our DPS trees could work without it is if we had permanently stoppable openers and could 100% guarantee a kill on a DPS right out of the gate. Considering every relevant team is running a sorc, AP PT and or a Marauder, that won't happen. We would pretty much have to 1-2 shot people and obviously that isn't going to happen.

 

 

Same strat you use against every team. Pick the weakest link, tunnel him until he blows his dcds, cc the healer, wait them out and hard switch for a kill. Which is fine, except we don't have any DCDs, and you don't have to cc our healer. Literally requires zero coordination or intelligent play to kill us.

[FoE_Khorne]

Adding 2k base damage to those two abilities without making any other changes to our damage or cooldowns would bump the top concealment parse up from 3126 to 3285. Still a mile behind the top DPS specs, but on par with operative lethality. It would also solve those no crit string woes, as a non crit opener post buff would do as much damage as a crappy crit opener does now.

 

Might be enough to get us in arenas. I'm fairly confident a well played double madness or double AP mara comp would still decimate us without additional damage reduction. Having kolto infusion be instant cast and energy free, but still require a tactical advantage baseline with a cast time and cost for medicine would go a long way towards helping our passive survivability, something like that in combination with a damage boost like this would probably be good enough to make us viable. Would bring back and improve greatly upon the old revitalizers talent and bring our self healing ability in combat on par with sorcs (total amount healed would be about the same as the amount absorbed by bubbles and unnatural preservation combined, used on cooldown, though we would face a small damage loss for this) and mercs. We have pretty good crowd control abilities, the heal change would give us more acceptable survivability and the small increase to base damage on hidden strike and backstab would give us burst on par with other burst classes and increase our sustained a reasonable amount as well.

 

TL;DR

 

Make Kolto Infusion instant cast and energy free baseline. Keep the TA requirement. In the Surgical Probe talent, add a 25 energy cost and 1.5s cast time to Kolto Infusion. Boom! Revitalizers 2.0, for both dps trees. Would be excellent if we could use this ability in stealth like the old revitalizers talent. Self healing can now be part of our survivability without copying mechanics from another class.

 

Increase the base damage of Hidden Strike and Backstab (concealment only) by 1.5-2k damage. This puts them in line with other burst classes hard hitting abilities, makes us less reliant on a crit opener and is perfectly even with duplicity mauls. Because backstab retains it's 12s CD, it is not comparable to a regular maul. I think because of it's cooldown (and hidden strike's stealth requirement) it should only be compared to buffed mauls. This change would bring it directly in line with the current buffed maul system for concealment only, both boosting our PVE DPS and making our burst damage both better and more reliable without it being ******* crazy like it was at launch.

 

Thoughts?

 

Using Racters ideas

I think a 2k increase on base is a bit too large given the damage from AB. soooo these are the changes i purpose.

 

-Increase base damage of backstab/hiddenstrike by 500. (although i dont think this will be needed if Lacerate is added to MKB)

-Make kolto infusion instant cast and free (still costs 1 ta) Taking Surgical Probe in medicine causes Kolto infusion to cost 25 energy with 1.5sec cast

Concealment

-Combine Inclement Conditioning and Scouting into one talent.

-Move Chem-resistant Inlays Medicine tree to concealment in exchange for revitalizers. Buff dr from 2/4% to 3/6% and make it reduce AoE damage by 15/30% Also nerf the heal from revitalizers to 1.5/3% so it isnt too strong in the heal spec.

-Flanking now also reduces the cost of acid blade by 2/4

-Acid Blade is now uncleansable

-Elite Shadow Operative Increase energy reduction from 2/4 to 3/6 also allows explosive probe to be used outside of cover.

-Meticulously kept blades remove server tendon and add lacerate.

-Tactical Opportunity reduce the internal CD to 8 seconds.

-Culling increase energy return to 6/12

Lethality

-Toxic Regulator In addition to its current effect. Using overload shot on a target affected by your corrosive grenade now grants 1 stack of Tactical Advantage. 10 second internal cd

-Combine Med Shield with Augmented Shields

-Quickening Exflitrate has a 25/50% chance to reset the CD on shield probe this cannot happen more than once every 1 minute 30 seconds.

 

Medicine

-Reduce the base heal from surgical probe by 100. (doesnt sound like much, but its heal is effected by a couple % increases.)

-Needs a talent to replace Med Shield Ideas?

Edited November 10, 2013 by FoE_Khorne

[BraaxusKun]

 

-Ive been playing concealment for since the game released as a main.. My characters name is Auroraborealis, and i am on PoT5 server. You may have been killed by me before lol.. I will say one thing. I honestly feel concealment damage is borderline OP in 1v1. I have no problems killing smashers, and in many instances deceptions assassins. People need to realize any buffs to concealment will quickly make this already extremely potent spec become flavor of the month like assassin, and no one will want teams of concealment operatives running around landing 2 hidden strikes per target, because even in the current state, its nearly overkill. This spec is amazing in my opinion, and i am extremely successful with it, and have hit 1 mill damage on several occasions with concealment. Already with the new gear from 2.4 hitting for 8.5k with hidden strike is not a rare occurrence at all. Plus factor in the bleed, and its a massive chuck of damage. We have roots, and extreme control over targets, not to mention the best stuns in game. Yes it is squishy, but GOD it is capable of WAY more than most people are assuming. A slight buff to its survivability will be sufficient enough, and perhaps a chance to proc a out of stealth hidden strike. Im even supportive of removable of energy cost of acid blade. However comparing this class to assassin is not a good way to go about things. We have way more ranged options, and the ability to use a very strong AoE (orbital strike), as well as corrosive dart, which is a very underestimated skill of concealment operatives, and i don't see many of them use it enough. Once this class is mastered its the most lethal killing machine in the game, with only deception being able to pose a real threat. I just don't want to see this class become brain dead like Deception, where you can play it with a blind fold on, just by mashing some auto crit BS. Please leave concealment for peoples that are willing to take time to learn this class, and not make it some overly simple Flavor of the month god mode spec.

 

-Once concealment is mastered it is nowhere near the most lethal killing machine - try playing against a good AP powertech, smash monkey, or deception sin - you will get destroyed.

 

-8.5k hidden strikes are a rare occurrence I don't care how pro you think you are, it doesn't happen, unless you're hitting sorcs with barely any expertise, because even if it does crit, it hits about 7k.

 

-But yes I agree with the part you said about needing survivability increase.

Edited November 7, 2013 by BraaxusKun

[Ahebish]

Nothing in my post is about PVP because I couldn't care less about PVP. My changes are in relation to PVE for Operations. When talking about PVP I would say something about PVP, but since I haven't PVP'd on my OP since Novare was introduced I don't chime in on PVP related matters. I only care about the Operative and its performance in the PVE end of things.

 

Answer a question for me that I've been wanting to ask people for a long *** time while I wasn't playing....

 

 

What good is energy when you have no skills to use that energy? A term most people are unaware of is called "CD WALLS" something this class suffered from since before 1.3... when they nerf'd our CD on backstab/backblast. Thus, it forced people to use skills concealment/scrapper spec was NOT designed to use. (We are NOT snipers/gunslingers)

 

Much to people's suprise; there is 1 and only 1 melee damage rotation that is unbeatable in terms of spike... EVEN against people who use explosive probe, Orbital or the double hidden strike opener, and that rotation was nerf'd into the ground with the nerf to backstab's cd when you factor in the compounding consecutive nerfs to this class over the course during that time.

 

To clarify; Once again, I am of the opinion this class does NOT need more utility or survivability; WE NEED DAMAGE! In fact I go so far as to say less survivability in sacrifice for more damage; I would gladly give up ALL of my defensive CD's except evasion for the sake of more damage and a reduction in CD timers on some melee skills. I don't even want to be able to use hidden strike out of stealth, WE NEVER NEEDED IT!

 

In my eyes, the logical course of action would be to give concealments their spike damage back, and give lethality high DPS but low spike in combination with utility/survivability I'm fine with lethality being pure ranged, but please for the love of god give concealment it's melee ability back.

 

Again my opinion.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Ahebish

[GOLANX]

as for Overload shot, at the very least match the DPS of Overload Shot to Snipe (2 Overload shot per snipe) without operative buff (so its stronger DPS for OP) and at the same time reduce the energy Cost to less than 10 that way it can be used as a mini snipe that doesn't lose you any DPS or Blow all of your energy.

 

BTW reading between the lines of the 2.5 changes Overload will be getting a sizable damage buff compared to the damage buffs that Sins will be getting

[Loc_n_lol]

2 Overload shot per snipe

 

Isn't snipe on a 1.5s activation time and therefore 1 overload shot should equal 1 snipe if you wanted them to give equivalent dps ?

 

But really, overload shot should be less efficient than snipe (for snipers), because it can be cast on the move and cannot be interrupted.

[Racter]

Answer a question for me that I've been wanting to ask people for a long *** time while I wasn't playing....

 

 

What good is energy when you have no skills to use that energy? A term most people are unaware of is called "CD WALLS" something this class suffered from since before 1.3... when they nerf'd our CD on backstab/backblast. Thus, it forced people to use skills concealment/scrapper spec was NOT designed to use. (We are NOT snipers/gunslingers)

 

Much to people's suprise; there is 1 and only 1 melee damage rotation that is unbeatable in terms of spike... EVEN against people who use explosive probe, Orbital or the double hidden strike opener, and that rotation was nerf'd into the ground with the nerf to backstab's cd when you factor in the compounding consecutive nerfs to this class over the course during that time.

 

To clarify; Once again, I am of the opinion this class does NOT need more utility or survivability; WE NEED DAMAGE! In fact I go so far as to say less survivability in sacrifice for more damage; I would gladly give up ALL of my defensive CD's except evasion for the sake of more damage and a reduction in CD timers on some melee skills. I don't even want to be able to use hidden strike out of stealth, WE NEVER NEEDED IT!

 

In my eyes, the logical course of action would be to give concealments their spike damage back, and give lethality high DPS but low spike in combination with utility/survivability I'm fine with lethality being pure ranged, but please for the love of god give concealment it's melee ability back.

 

Again my opinion.

 

Dude you really don't seem to understand so I'm going to try this again in simpler terms.

 

HS+EP+BS would have to three shot everyone through all CDs for me to consider taking a concealment operative into arenas without giving us survivability buffs.

[Isagoras]

Enforcer

PvE 2-piece Increases the critical chance of Shiv or Blaster Whip by 15%.

4-piece Increases maximum energy by 5.

PvP 2-piece Increases the duration of Infiltrate or Smuggle by 5 seconds and Evasion or Dodge by 1 second.

4-piece Increases max energy by 5.

 

Field Medic

PvE 2-piece Increases the healing done by Recuperative Nanotech and Kolto Cloud by 15%.

4-piece Increases maximum energy by 5.

PvP 2-piece Increases the damage absorbed by Shield Probe or Defense Screen by 10%.

4-piece Increases max energy by 5.

 

I wonder if this could be possible that the pvp stuff for DPS operative (I speak for concealment tree) has something better that +5 seconds of infiltrate.

 

For example give us : Increases the critical chance of Shiv or Blaster Whip by 15% for the pvp stuff.

[NeoTaintedAngel]

I don't know where they would begin if they were going to retool concealment to be less bursty and more useful for PvE. (And thus making people less prone to whining about concealment in PvP) But I think it needs to start with Overload Shot. We go Operative and we get a bonus to damage for it and while that's awesome, the actual damage it deals is horribly underwhelming for what it does. Moreover, it carries with it no benefits outside of chopping away at our energy.

 

Maybe work something out between it and Calculated Frenzy? (Stacking buff?)

 

This is probably a terrible idea. But maybe make Calculated Frenzy a stacking buff which has a really solid advantage but can be "executed" like a Tactical Advantage in an Overload Shot. Sort of like an execute of sorts. As for what the advantage could be? Maybe generally lower the damage on shiv, backstab and laceration but as the stacks get higher the cooldowns on those abilities are shortened and do a bit more damage per stack. This way Operatives would have a "wind up" and a "finish". As said, probably terrible. But I always get giddy when I get back-to-back procs with laceration and get to chain it in with backstab/shiv. So I'd definitely back whatever lets me do that more.

[warultima]

Enforcer

PvE 2-piece Increases the critical chance of Shiv or Blaster Whip by 15%.

4-piece Increases maximum energy by 5.

PvP 2-piece Increases the duration of Infiltrate or Smuggle by 5 seconds and Evasion or Dodge by 1 second.

4-piece Increases max energy by 5.

 

Field Medic

PvE 2-piece Increases the healing done by Recuperative Nanotech and Kolto Cloud by 15%.

4-piece Increases maximum energy by 5.

PvP 2-piece Increases the damage absorbed by Shield Probe or Defense Screen by 10%.

4-piece Increases max energy by 5.

 

I wonder if this could be possible that the pvp stuff for DPS operative (I speak for concealment tree) has something better that +5 seconds of infiltrate.

 

For example give us : Increases the critical chance of Shiv or Blaster Whip by 15% for the pvp stuff.

 

PvP Enforcer:

2-pc bonus should be 15% crit to Shiv and Laceration.

4-pc bonus should be 15% crit to Hidden Strike and Backstab.

[Racter]

I don't know where they would begin if they were going to retool concealment to be less bursty and more useful for PvE. (And thus making people less prone to whining about concealment in PvP) But I think it needs to start with Overload Shot. We go Operative and we get a bonus to damage for it and while that's awesome, the actual damage it deals is horribly underwhelming for what it does. Moreover, it carries with it no benefits outside of chopping away at our energy.

 

Maybe work something out between it and Calculated Frenzy? (Stacking buff?)

 

This is probably a terrible idea. But maybe make Calculated Frenzy a stacking buff which has a really solid advantage but can be "executed" like a Tactical Advantage in an Overload Shot. Sort of like an execute of sorts. As for what the advantage could be? Maybe generally lower the damage on shiv, backstab and laceration but as the stacks get higher the cooldowns on those abilities are shortened and do a bit more damage per stack. This way Operatives would have a "wind up" and a "finish". As said, probably terrible. But I always get giddy when I get back-to-back procs with laceration and get to chain it in with backstab/shiv. So I'd definitely back whatever lets me do that more.

 

Less damage on abilities that barely tickle, what a brilliant idea!

 

 

Said no one ever. If they take even a single point of damage away from any ability we do they might as well delete the spec entirely. Terrible idea.

[Racter]

PvP Enforcer:

2-pc bonus should be 15% crit to Shiv and Laceration.

4-pc bonus should be 15% crit to Hidden Strike and Backstab.

 

Infinitely better than what we have now for both pve and pvp

[Shadowhispers]

Concealment is a abit of a mess atm, steadily been nerfed since release, and to be fair on release it was far to strong, but take into account the base dmg of abilities compared to Max health was much higher than it is now. Hidden strike doing 3-6k dmg on players with 16-18k health at release is high, but compare that to now, HS does 3.5-7.5k damage on players with 29-31k health ( not counting tanks), thats a massive difference, and thats just 1 ability.

current problems that i see. Burst VS survival, our co stealth class, the assassin currently has bigger burst, aswell as better defensive CDs and more control, maul does more damage than HS currently, isnt tied to stealth and is GETTING BUFFED in 2,5 lol.

 

Now i get that we are supposed to be "sneaky and slippery" so maybe we shouldnt be given good defensive CDs, but, that would mean we need to be SNEAKY AND SLIPPERY" IE harder than other classes to lockdown/control, which less face it we are not, we have no root/knockback protection no Stun/CC protection, Assassins get force shroud which acts as both since all stuns/metz and knockbacks seem to be tech/force attacks.

 

Bottom line, we need some damage buffs added into the tree, we need better energy management, and some more reliable "slippery" abilities to make up for our terrible defenses.

So my ideas

Changes to Concealment :

 

Waylay - Currently: increases the damage of Backstab by 4%

Changed to : Increases the damage of Backstab and Hidden strike by 4% and reduces the CD on Backstab by 3seconds ( 9 sec CD)

 

Collateral Strike - Currently : Laceration has a 70% chance to trigger collateral strike dealing X amount of kinetic Damage

Changed to : Laceration has a 100% chance to trigger collateral strike

This Skill is tied directly into our energy management since Collateral strike refunds 10 energy when dealing Damage and while 70% seems high, in reality its not a reliable source of energy management in its current form, also the damage from CS is very small, currently only 4-5% of total damage done

 

Calculated Frenzy- Currently Backstab and Hidden strike have 100% chance to trigger CF increasing alacrity by 6% for 15secs

Changed to - as above , and in addition using hidden strike and Backstab reduce the cooldown of Stimboost and Adrenal probe by 3 seconds

 

Revitalizers - Stim boost grants 2% health every 3 secs for 15 seconds, a massive 10% health every 2 minutes, and a waste of 2 skill points, this need to be scrapped completely, no-one uses it as its a tiny heal and it promotes sitting on Stimboost when you should be using it early on anyway for burst

it can be changed in 2 ways, either increase the healing it does to something like 5% every 3 seconds

or : Using stim boost grants Revitalizers for 10secs, making your next kolto injection free and instant cast

 

Shadow operative Elite - grants Exfiltrate 50% chance to trigger evasion for 1 sec, 15sec internal CD, and reduces cost by 4 energy ( still 21)

This needs to be changed to 100% chance, since the internal CD is so long and the energy cost is so high, in addition Exfiltrate can be used while immobilized ( theres that SLIPPERY i was talking about )

 

And Finally

Ghost : as well as currently effects, Sneak should now grant immunity to knockbacks/roots while active ( NOT STUNS/METZ)

[Ahebish]

Dude you really don't seem to understand so I'm going to try this again in simpler terms.

 

HS+EP+BS would have to three shot everyone through all CDs for me to consider taking a concealment operative into arenas without giving us survivability buffs.

 

You obviously haven't played this class since launch.

 

That's exactly what it used to do... but people said it was over powered.

 

Fine, let's say it was back then.... now is a different story... this spec is the lowest dps spec in the game, and it's laughable to compare against any other DPS spec in the game, and everyone knows it.

 

In addition to our already low survivability, we also hit like a wet noodle.

 

What you didn't get to experience back at launch is... scrappers/concealments were notorious for fighting 2v1 and 3v1 and surviving on pure damage alone, BEFORE all this knick knack crap the class has now.

 

Such as roll; and better energy; We DIDN'T HAVE ANY of this crap nor did the class need it.

 

Those of us gifted enough to learn the class well, learned how to survive on pure damage alone.

 

And that is as simple as I can explain it to you since we like to talk simplistically without any prior experience to justify the opinion.

 

No, this class doesn't need to 1-3 shot something to win, but why can't we do 20k damage in less than 6 seconds like a Deception Assassin? This class needs to spike more effectively, and yes there was a specific rotation for this that beat out EVERY OP'd nerf cry thing about this spec, and wasn't an exploit.

 

1. Double hidden strike opener for example was extremely strong, but the rotation I figured out destroyed it in Spike damage pre-nerf and continued through after the HS nerf because I never got used to using HS in that way, so in short the people that did, failed to learn to play the class correctly which made that nerf hurt more than it ever should have. In short the HS nerf didn't effect me at all because of my playstyle. We DO NOT need to be able to use HS out of stealth. Quit crying about the fact we never needed to be able to use this when it ALL COMES DOWN to our Spike damage, and sustained DPS.

 

2. Those of us who mastered this class, can pretty much unanimously agree, what was REALLY needed and what wasn't... Energy we can pretty much all agree was an issue; But NONE of us can justify the need for a roll maneuver or a speed boost of any kind... All of this was brought about BECAUSE OF THE NERFS. If the class wasn't over nerf'd to begin with these skills would never had made it through the dev chopping block. But, now that we have it... no one wants to get rid of it.... yet no one ever needed it.

 

3. Unforseen consequences of game mechanic changes; Such as equipment upgrades in terms of mod bits... in 2.0 or so later they nerf'd concealments and scrappers again, because of this update, our set bonus' no longer carried over through mods... which means most of us lost our 15% crit chance on backstab for those of us who had pre-nerf set bonus' on PVE gear shells which as MOST real concealments/scrappers know was THE ONLY set bonus worth anything in PVE or PVP. Now the new armor set bonus' when it was either 2.0 or 2.4 nerf'd ALL the work some of us like me put into gaining expertise to the level we needed it to be... I went from 1300 expertise down to 500 becuase of this... so NOW I have to start the ef'ing grind all over again, as if I just turned level 50... which is BEYOND irritating. The point is Bioware threw out mechanic changes without evaluating HOW this class was effected by it, or how this class was meant to be played. In short, Bioware needs to STOP bringing out new gear, because this is constantly changing the way this class is effected in both PVE and PVP, OR fix the damn set bonus' to something useful that this spec can use in both PVE and PVP or make it interchangeable regardless of gear type.

Edited November 10, 2013 by Ahebish

[Ahebish]

Concealment is a abit of a mess atm, steadily been nerfed since release, and to be fair on release it was far to strong, but take into account the base dmg of abilities compared to Max health was much higher than it is now. Hidden strike doing 3-6k dmg on players with 16-18k health at release is high, but compare that to now, HS does 3.5-7.5k damage on players with 29-31k health ( not counting tanks), thats a massive difference, and thats just 1 ability.

current problems that i see. Burst VS survival, our co stealth class, the assassin currently has bigger burst, aswell as better defensive CDs and more control, maul does more damage than HS currently, isnt tied to stealth and is GETTING BUFFED in 2,5 lol.

 

Now i get that we are supposed to be "sneaky and slippery" so maybe we shouldnt be given good defensive CDs, but, that would mean we need to be SNEAKY AND SLIPPERY" IE harder than other classes to lockdown/control, which less face it we are not, we have no root/knockback protection no Stun/CC protection, Assassins get force shroud which acts as both since all stuns/metz and knockbacks seem to be tech/force attacks.

 

Bottom line, we need some damage buffs added into the tree, we need better energy management, and some more reliable "slippery" abilities to make up for our terrible defenses.

So my ideas

Changes to Concealment :

 

Waylay - Currently: increases the damage of Backstab by 4%

Changed to : Increases the damage of Backstab and Hidden strike by 4% and reduces the CD on Backstab by 3seconds ( 9 sec CD)

 

Collateral Strike - Currently : Laceration has a 70% chance to trigger collateral strike dealing X amount of kinetic Damage

Changed to : Laceration has a 100% chance to trigger collateral strike

This Skill is tied directly into our energy management since Collateral strike refunds 10 energy when dealing Damage and while 70% seems high, in reality its not a reliable source of energy management in its current form, also the damage from CS is very small, currently only 4-5% of total damage done

 

Calculated Frenzy- Currently Backstab and Hidden strike have 100% chance to trigger CF increasing alacrity by 6% for 15secs

Changed to - as above , and in addition using hidden strike and Backstab reduce the cooldown of Stimboost and Adrenal probe by 3 seconds

 

Revitalizers - Stim boost grants 2% health every 3 secs for 15 seconds, a massive 10% health every 2 minutes, and a waste of 2 skill points, this need to be scrapped completely, no-one uses it as its a tiny heal and it promotes sitting on Stimboost when you should be using it early on anyway for burst

it can be changed in 2 ways, either increase the healing it does to something like 5% every 3 seconds

or : Using stim boost grants Revitalizers for 10secs, making your next kolto injection free and instant cast

 

Shadow operative Elite - grants Exfiltrate 50% chance to trigger evasion for 1 sec, 15sec internal CD, and reduces cost by 4 energy ( still 21)

This needs to be changed to 100% chance, since the internal CD is so long and the energy cost is so high, in addition Exfiltrate can be used while immobilized ( theres that SLIPPERY i was talking about )

 

And Finally

Ghost : as well as currently effects, Sneak should now grant immunity to knockbacks/roots while active ( NOT STUNS/METZ)

 

And I have to agree with everything this guy says; Because he comes from the same walk of life in SWTOR as I did.

 

Here's another example of stupid; Alacrity is a useless stat for a concealment/scrapper if you want to maximize your damage potential... the proc'd alacrity serves absolutely zero bonus to our tech damage skills which is about 90% of our skills in this spec.

 

Alacrity needs to get moved over to the heal tree and lethality trees.... which should if it doesn't effects DOT and HOT proc intervals. That is to say if a dot procs 5 times in 10 seconds, it should proc 6-7 times in the same 10 seconds as effected by alacrity... (same for HOT's)

 

Another example of stupidity in my eyes; Evasion vs Shroud

 

Evasion stops white damage, tech, and elmental damage types... but not force damage.

 

What is the % of classes in this game that use force damage skills? 80% of the classes in this game use this damage type.

 

Yet shroud defends against both Tech damage and Force damage, but not white damage... that to me makes it stupid over powered.

 

How about they remove the force damage reduction on shroud add white damage protection thus making glowsticks vulnerable to tech damage or elemental, but not force damage. Just like evasion makes us invulncerable to white damage, tech damage? While giving the same resistance shield to BH's/Commandos except make them vulnerable to 1 type of skill damage i.e. Elemental, but not force, or tech.

 

Here's another one... Sorcs... hybrid DPS/heal specs, or dps spec; I don't know if it was fixed, but sorc bubbles were just down right stupid in PVP... they could bubble stun you like 4-6 times before giving you 100% resolve while HS + Debiliate causes 100% resolve, THAT DOES NOT INCLUDE roots, snares, etc which do not proc resolve at all.

 

I dunno call me Captain Obvious.

Edited November 10, 2013 by Ahebish

[Ahebish]

Look to be fair, and realistic about this endeavor, I'm not saying do all of these changes at the same time, that's how things get skewed when BW tries to gather statistics.

 

Let's do it in small phases;

 

For example; expertise 9 sec CD on backstab... start out with this first before anything.

 

Take some statistical data, to find out how much this CD effects our DPS/Spike.... If it's not out of control... then proceed with another change... test for statistical data... and so forth.

 

The point is to bring concealment/Lethality up to a point where they fair better against everything the game has to offer, but not break them to an overpowered state right out of the gate and then get into an endless nerf/boost fest.

 

Some of us veterans are willing to wait for a well thoughtout tested solutions executed in small steps. Because it shows progression to what the problem is with conceal/lethality specs

Edited November 10, 2013 by Ahebish

[Racter]

Dude so many things were flat out wrong in the above posts I couldn't even finish reading them, though to be fair it was very clear immediately that you either didn't read what I was saying or are totally off in la-la land.

 

We will NEVER be able to three shot people again. I'm arguing for a equalization of our burst with other burst specs and an increase in survivability on par with at least deception sins. It is painfully obvious you have not done arenas and it is also crystal clear that you want this spec to be ridiculously overpowered like it was at launch. You seem to think massively buffing our damage alone would make us viable. The reality is, in arena, against teams that matter, you will not three shot someone. 1.0 concealment damage, scaled to current levels, would not three shot someone, even if you magically landed an opener (and I mean really, lol, go play concealment in TEAM ranked and not solo queue and get back to me on this. Other than vanishing to open it pretty much wont happen).

 

The alacrity buffs absolutely were needed, and the massive gain in the energy department was amazingly appreciated. Is energy in a good place right now for arena? Spec correctly and manage yourself correctly and I think it is. Not much different than playing a rogue as far as pooling energy goes, it just takes us much longer to do it.

 

Do we need massive damage buffs? Definitely not. We could use a fairly sizable mobility buff (ala putting roll on a 15s cd, and making it always go somewhere between 15 and 20m, or giving it two charges of 10m to be more controllable and less lolrollable), and our burst absolutely needs to be slightly increased to bring us in line with other burst specs. The small buff I spoke of previously would bring our PVE damage up to par and bring our overall burst up to par without leading to an immediate nerf. Increasing our armor pen could theoretically do the same thing, but also forces us to remain solely at the mercy of RNG. I, for one, am pretty sick and tired of getting those all so common no crit burst windows and doing 10k damage in three globals when a Sin, Mara, PT, Sniper, etc can do that in one. When a Sin can always do at bare minimum ~16k and far more commonly more around 21k. The changes I suggested would leave us at bare minimum 15k and maximum top end around 23k, with our current top end maximum being around 20k. Not a huge buff, still not top tier, still RNG reliant, but fair, reasonable and reliable. I don't need this class to be the absolute best, and other good players don't either. I just want it to be competitive. Viable.

 

Giving us 30% AOE damage reduction and 25% when sneak is active would bring our survivability up enough to maybe step into arenas. Deception and Carnage both have a stacking damage reduction/white damage avoidance buff that provides and additional 6% damage reduction over what we have, something like this would be similarly fitting for concealment.

 

You can argue damage damage damage all you want but damage alone is not going to get us anywhere in the current meta. I really don't know how to make this any more clear to those of you still on the damage side of the fence. Not only will it not happen in a million years, it's not even a valid solution to the problem.

 

Think we're done here. You can say you're willing to wait all you want, but the reality is Season One starts Tuesday and every single operative and scoundrel on the leaderboards is going to be a healer.

Edited November 10, 2013 by Racter

[Rynis]

Make stim boost a CD for dps ops. 25% dr for 10 seconds or something...Every time you get collateral strike as concealment it lowers the cd by 3 seconds. It's simple but would be a step in the right direction.

 

Can't give this to healers though

[Racter]

Make stim boost a CD for dps ops. 25% dr for 10 seconds or something...Every time you get collateral strike as concealment it lowers the cd by 3 seconds. It's simple but would be a step in the right direction.

 

Can't give this to healers though

 

Way too little on way to long of a cool down for a class with armor made of paper.

[FoE_Khorne]

Using Racters ideas

I think a 2k increase on base is a bit too large given the damage from AB. soooo these are the changes i purpose.

 

-Increase base damage of backstab/hiddenstrike by 500. (although i dont think this will be needed if Lacerate is added to MKB)

-Make kolto infusion instant cast and free (still costs 1 ta) Taking Surgical Probe in medicine causes Kolto infusion to cost 25 energy with 1.5sec cast

Concealment

-Combine Inclement Conditioning and Scouting into one talent.

-Move Chem-resistant Inlays Medicine tree to concealment in exchange for revitalizers. Buff dr from 2/4% to 3/6% and make it reduce AoE damage by 15/30% Also nerf the heal from revitalizers to 1.5/3% so it isnt too strong in the heal spec.

-Flanking now also reduces the cost of acid blade by 2/4

-Acid Blade is now uncleansable

-Elite Shadow Operative Increase energy reduction from 2/4 to 3/6 also allows explosive probe to be used outside of cover.

-Meticulously kept blades remove server tendon and add lacerate.

-Tactical Opportunity reduce the internal CD to 8 seconds.

-Culling increase energy return to 6/12

Lethality

-Toxic Regulator In addition to its current effect. Using overload shot on a target affected by your corrosive grenade now grants 1 stack of Tactical Advantage. 10 second internal cd

-Combine Med Shield with Augmented Shields

-Quickening Exflitrate has a 25/50% chance to reset the CD on shield probe this cannot happen more than once every 1 minute 30 seconds.

 

Medicine

-Reduce the base heal from surgical probe by 100. (doesnt sound like much, but its heal is effected by a couple % increases.)

-Needs a talent to replace Med Shield Ideas?

 

Those changes to concealment would give us the ability to stay toe to toe in melee in arenas. Increasing our out of stealth dps efficacy with those changes to lacerate(and the associated procs) would greatly help our sustain in pvp and pve.

[Racter]

Was considering the AB in my suggestion and not so much considering explosive probe as it seems a poor choice to use it in an opener in arena and better off as an execute. Think 9k maul 8k discharge 5-6k shock versus 9k HS 9k BS if both crit plus 3.5k? From AB and something around 5k HS 5k BS 3.5k AB on non crits. Compared to 6k maul 5k discharge 4k shock if none crit (though the odds are heavily in their favor that they will crit).

 

Everything else I'm on board with. Maybe lower the cd on the defense screen proc for Lethality, even with the set bonus and talent in lethality it still doesn't really absorb that much. No particular number in mind but closer to the cooldown (45-60s). Don't think we would really need to replace that talent in the medicine tree either, most people don't take it anyway.

[NogueiraA]

Reworking stealth

 

I really don't like how stealth works on SWTOR, a move like Hidden Strike not being able to use often is not a good design.

My suggest:

- Disapearing Act has 20sec cooldown.

- When used, your stealth lasts 8sec, reduce all damage taken by 20% and remove all debuffs (QoL).

- After the 8secs your stealth you'll pop out of stealth, Stealth will enter in cooldown for 5sec, so you cannot stealth in 5secs (to not break PVP, perma stealth every 20secs would be OP).

- After the 5secs you can perma stealth again(to not break PVE and PVP).

- If a skill uses Tactical Advantage, it's free energy. Makes no sense consuming TA PLUS using 25 energy...

- Way on top of healing tree would have a talent like "increase the stealth from Disappearing act by 8sec", to not break Stealth-rez in PVE.

- Sneak works the same as Blackout for assassins.

 

It would solve energy problems, Hidden Strike being used all the time.

[warultima]

Why is Hidden Strike critting for 7k is terribly bad when Dispatch crits for over 8k, smash AoE auto crits for 10k+ and Maul doesnt even require stealth, and Discharge all ok?

[nlashbrook]

Having the energy requirement of cull be reduced to say 10-15 or lowering the CD of shiv/back stab would help out a bunch for PVE operatives. Just spit-balling with this.

[NogueiraA]

Why is Hidden Strike critting for 7k is terribly bad when Dispatch crits for over 8k, smash AoE auto crits for 10k+ and Maul doesnt even require stealth, and Discharge all ok?

 

PVE - no problem.

PVP - because it's a 2sec stun + damage at the same time.