Operative DPS Brainstorming

[axelthesot]

I'd like to see a a talent changed/added to allow our sever tendon to act as an execute ability when the target is below 30%. Just have the damage ramp up considerably when they are below the threshold. This would make the talent that increases its crit damage actually worth something for the skill, and also would make the skill a staple of the spec. Edited November 19, 2013 by axelthesot

[Loc_n_lol]

60% Fatality procs on Shiv are too low.

 

What about the quickening proc on the roflroll for the instant-cast free kolto infusion ?

30% chance every roll is really low. How about a 100% chance for 2 consecutive rolls (similar to the marksman sniper proc of followthrough on two consecutive snipes).

 

Or just make kolto infusion baseline instant cast so that DPS specs can reasonably use it (it does require tactical advantage and energy and doesn't heal for that much), and make the kolto probes have a 1.5s activation time instead. Healer operatives would trade one castable on the move for another, and DPS specs would gain one actually usable in combat.

 

EDIT:scoundrel/sniper here, having translation problems... fixed now

Edited November 19, 2013 by Loc_n_lol

[Majspuffen]

Suggestions for Lethality:

 

For PvE the spec seem to do well but it could use some love for pvp.

 

• Do -not- nerf Cover.
  
• Let Snipe generate TA. Perhaps the same talent could also add a short slowing effect to our snipe. This would make us more effective as mid-range fighters.
  
• Buff Toxic Regulators so that our DoTs do not break any mezzes.
  
• Buff Countermeasures so that it also absorbs one force/tech attack (similar to Mercenaries "Decoy" talent.)
  

[Ridickilis]

........ Edited November 19, 2013 by Ridickilis

[Transmet]

What about the quickening proc on the roflroll for the instant-cast free kolto infusion ?

30% chance every roll is really low. How about a 100% chance for 2 consecutive rolls (similar to the marksman sniper proc of followthrough on two consecutive snipes).

 

Or just make kolto infusion baseline instant cast so that DPS specs can reasonably use it (it does require tactical advantage and energy and doesn't heal for that much), and make the kolto probes have a 1.5s activation time instead. Healer operatives would trade one castable on the move for another, and DPS specs would gain one actually usable in combat.

 

EDIT:scoundrel/sniper here, having translation problems... fixed now

 

i dont care about pvp, especially lethality pvp. in my opinion, pvp qq is what ruins rpg classes in the first place. ....but seriously, suggestions for dps with instant heals that roll a HoT on top of that even is just ridiculous and will never happen. armchair design teams at work here. the suggestions here are so game breaking and out of left field that i actually feel sorry for any dev that reads this. if we want to be taken seriously with suggestions, we actually have to put some considerable thought into it.

 

ie. change exfiltrate to give a 100% to proc evasion every 30 secs instead of 20 secs and only (lower %)

 

not: lets change core mechanical builds of classes because im too lazy to put in the time to learn my class better and qq is much easier.

Edited November 19, 2013 by Transmet

[Haystak]

i dont care about pvp, especially lethality pvp. in my opinion, pvp qq is what ruins rpg classes in the first place.

 

MMO comes before RPG in this instance, pvp is a part of 95% of the MMOs in the world that have more than 10k users. We are a part of this community just as much as you are, and if balancing classes for pvp ruins your pve, then I can tell you from my experience in this game that the balancing for pve has completely destroyed the pvp in this game.

 

Also, what pve buffs do you even need, arent df scoundrels in a good spot right now for pve?

[Transmet]

MMO comes before RPG in this instance, pvp is a part of 95% of the MMOs in the world that have more than 10k users. We are a part of this community just as much as you are, and if balancing classes for pvp ruins your pve, then I can tell you from my experience in this game that the balancing for pve has completely destroyed the pvp in this game.

 

Also, what pve buffs do you even need, arent df scoundrels in a good spot right now for pve?

 

see, that's the thing, no one is talking about 'buffs' for pve because buffs aren't required. if you bothered to scroll back a page, you'd see what my post was about that the guy quoted.

and no, pvp is NOT as much of a part of the community as pve by a long shot. that argument aside, the problem i have with pvp qq is that you spend more time qqing because you're getting destroyed by a lack of skill rather than class flaws. unless you are playing pvp at the highest levels balance qqing doesn't apply to you. there are exceptions, but most of the suggestions here are borderline special needs and have adverse affects on how seriously the community can be taken.

Edited November 19, 2013 by Transmet

[Ridickilis]

but most of the suggestions here are borderline special needs and have adverse affects on how seriously the community can be taken.

 

What exactly were you doing suggesting that hidden strike could be use out of stealth every 20 seconds on a *set bonus*? Which other class, exactly, would get such a strong proc set bonus to make that even a viable suggestion/precedent?

 

Adding one more tick to orbital strike, completely in line with other classes types of set bonuses. Adding a 'conspirator's cloak', if you will, as a set bonus sounds an awful lot like that in which you're complaining about.

Edited November 19, 2013 by Ridickilis

[Transmet]

What exactly were you doing suggesting that hidden strike could be use out of stealth every 20 seconds on a *set bonus*? Which other class, exactly, would get such a strong proc set bonus to make that even a viable suggestion/precedent?

 

Adding one more tick to orbital strike, completely in line with other classes types of set bonuses. Adding a 'conspirator's cloak', if you will, as a set bonus sounds an awful lot like that in which you're complaining about.

 

hidden strike is already being talked about BY THE DEVS as requiring adjustment out of stealth actually. cloaking screen to gain the ability is 'performing above our expectations'. the damage value in itself would be nerfed on frequent uses. the reason it hits what it hits now is because it was designed for once a fight. if they go through with what they are considering with it, it's base value would be nerfed. in other words, without an adjustment on the backend, it would be overpowered, but that would be impossible. thanks for thinking it through instead of resorting to hubris :PPP

 

see, as it sits right now, the only real filler ability is Backstab. watching your damage fall while playing the Fatality proc lottery is frustrating and not FUN. there needs to be another ability to stabilize the rotation when in a drought for Fatalities from Shiv. higher damage FROM stealth would be fine as an opener and then lowered values from out of stealth is an actual suggestion.

 

read slowly, ridic:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=679262

Edited November 19, 2013 by Transmet

[Geryboy]

Having some kind of autocrit , like for instance having lacerate be a 100% crit when it builds an additional tactical advantage.

 

Also having a proc that would allow us to use hidden strike while being in combat and not stealthed would be great.

 

In generel we also need more crit chance on hidden strike, backstab and lacerate with an additional tier talent in our skill tree.

[dbears]

Just a few ideas I'd like to see implemented.

 

New Set Bonuses: (we need these for ALL classes by the way. we've had the same ones since release)

 

PvE:

2 Piece - Consuming a stack of Tactical Advantage grants 10% increased damage for 4 seconds.

4 Piece - Critical hits with Shiv and Corrosive Dart reduce the cooldown of Cloaking Screen by 2 seconds. (This will give Operatives more uses of Hidden Strike in a fight).

 

PvP:

2 Piece - Exiting Stealth grants immunity to controlling effects for 4 seconds.

4 Piece - When you Exfiltrate, all enemies within 5m are slowed by 30% for 3 seconds.

 

Rework Revitalizers. Stim Boost additionally heals you for 2% max health every second and increases energy regeneration by 5% for the duration. (So about 600-700 health per second for 15 seconds equals 9000-10500 every 2 minutes).

 

Rework Med Shield. It should heal you for 2200-2500 and be moved Lethality. With the 30 second cooldown on Shield Probe in Lethality, this would balance out with Revitalizers in Concealment.

 

Counterstrike in Lethality should be moved or mirrored to Concealment. Lethality has so many core abilities that can be used from ranged so even while rooted they can still deal some kind of damage. Concealment on the other hand can't do much at all. How Lethality got this talent over Concealment is beyond me haha.

 

Rework Exfiltrate. Keep the energy cost but put a 6 second cooldown on it.

 

FIX THE BUG WHERE USING EXFILTRATE CLOSE TO A LEDGE SIMPLY MAKES YOU FALL OFF INSTEAD OF ROLLING FORWARD. That's THE MOST frustrating thing.

 

Rework Waylay. Make it a 2 point talent that reduces the cooldown of Backstab by 1/2 seconds and increases the damage of Backstab by 3/6%.

 

You say you're removing the buff that prevents Operatives from being leapt to or pulled while in cover. I understand that and absolutely 100% agree, if they're just crouching out in the open. But what if we're actually behind cover? We're still able to see available cover points AND roll in to them. If we're actually taking cover behind something IN A COVER POINT, I think we should have the same immunities as a Sniper.

 

The damage to Overload Shot needs to be substantial or the energy cost needs to be reduced for anyone to use it. Rework Lethality talent in the Lethality tree. In addition to its previous effects, Overload Shot has a 33/66/100% chance to refund 8 energy when hitting a Poisoned target.

[Transmet]

Just a few ideas I'd like to see implemented.

 

New Set Bonuses: (we need these for ALL classes by the way. we've had the same ones since release)

 

PvE:

2 Piece - Consuming a stack of Tactical Advantage grants 10% increased damage for 4 seconds.

4 Piece - Critical hits with Shiv and Corrosive Dart reduce the cooldown of Cloaking Screen by 2 seconds. (This will give Operatives more uses of Hidden Strike in a fight).

 

PvP:

2 Piece - Exiting Stealth grants immunity to controlling effects for 4 seconds.

4 Piece - When you Exfiltrate, all enemies within 5m are slowed by 30% for 3 seconds.

 

Rework Revitalizers. Stim Boost additionally heals you for 2% max health every second and increases energy regeneration by 5% for the duration. (So about 600-700 health per second for 15 seconds equals 9000-10500 every 2 minutes).

 

Rework Med Shield. It should heal you for 2200-2500 and be moved Lethality. With the 30 second cooldown on Shield Probe in Lethality, this would balance out with Revitalizers in Concealment.

 

Counterstrike in Lethality should be moved or mirrored to Concealment. Lethality has so many core abilities that can be used from ranged so even while rooted they can still deal some kind of damage. Concealment on the other hand can't do much at all. How Lethality got this talent over Concealment is beyond me haha.

 

Rework Exfiltrate. Keep the energy cost but put a 6 second cooldown on it.

 

FIX THE BUG WHERE USING EXFILTRATE CLOSE TO A LEDGE SIMPLY MAKES YOU FALL OFF INSTEAD OF ROLLING FORWARD. That's THE MOST frustrating thing.

 

Rework Waylay. Make it a 2 point talent that reduces the cooldown of Backstab by 1/2 seconds and increases the damage of Backstab by 3/6%.

 

You say you're removing the buff that prevents Operatives from being leapt to or pulled while in cover. I understand that and absolutely 100% agree, if they're just crouching out in the open. But what if we're actually behind cover? We're still able to see available cover points AND roll in to them. If we're actually taking cover behind something IN A COVER POINT, I think we should have the same immunities as a Sniper.

 

The damage to Overload Shot needs to be substantial or the energy cost needs to be reduced for anyone to use it. Rework Lethality talent in the Lethality tree. In addition to its previous effects, Overload Shot has a 33/66/100% chance to refund 8 energy when hitting a Poisoned target.

 

 

this guy right here has a lot right. a lot of practical and incremental changes, not ZOMG i want to do moredmg LAZRZ PEW PEW and self heal and roll around everywhere and change casting mechanics blah blah blah

Edited November 19, 2013 by Transmet

[Majspuffen]

Counterstrike in Lethality should be moved or mirrored to Concealment. Lethality has so many core abilities that can be used from ranged so even while rooted they can still deal some kind of damage. Concealment on the other hand can't do much at all. How Lethality got this talent over Concealment is beyond me haha.

 

I disagree with this one. I mainly play Lethality on my Operative these days and this ability is paramount to our survivability. It is no less important to Lethality than it is to Concealment. If Concealment gets this ability, then I want Pin Down on Lethality.

 

But, perhaps Concealment should get some buff from Concealment. Take a look at Mercenaries; both Arsenal and Pyrotech both get something out of Chaff Flare, but not the same thing.

 

[edit] just a disclaimer, I missed out on "mirrored" when I first responded, but I see no reason to change my post!

Edited November 19, 2013 by Majspuffen

[Loc_n_lol]

this guy right here has a lot right. a lot of practical and incremental changes, not ZOMG i want to do moredmg LAZRZ PEW PEW and self heal and roll around everywhere and change casting mechanics blah blah blah

But lethality can already self-heal (or heal others for that matter) while rolling around, with a proc that changes the casting mechanic of an ability... It's just completely random and unreliable...

[Transmet]

But lethality can already self-heal (or heal others for that matter) while rolling around, with a proc that changes the casting mechanic of an ability... It's just completely random and unreliable...

 

my point exactly

[Loc_n_lol]

my point exactly

 

Your point is what ? Asking for more pew pew by getting a guaranteed second cull for every shiv is ok, but asking for a guaranteed free instant KI for every other roll is out of whack ? It's exactly the same change to a different skill.

[FoE_Khorne]

Using Racters ideas

I think a 2k increase on base is a bit too large given the damage from AB. soooo these are the changes i purpose.

 

-Increase base damage of backstab/hiddenstrike by 500. (although i dont think this will be needed if Lacerate is added to MKB)

-Make kolto infusion instant cast and free (still costs 1 ta) Taking Surgical Probe in medicine causes Kolto infusion to cost 25 energy with 1.5sec cast

Concealment

-Combine Inclement Conditioning and Scouting into one talent.

-Move Chem-resistant Inlays Medicine tree to concealment in exchange for revitalizers. Buff dr from 2/4% to 3/6% and make it reduce AoE damage by 15/30% Also nerf the heal from revitalizers to 1.5/3% so it isnt too strong in the heal spec.

-Flanking now also reduces the cost of acid blade by 2/4

-Acid Blade is now uncleansable

-Elite Shadow Operative Increase energy reduction from 2/4 to 3/6 also allows explosive probe to be used outside of cover.

-Meticulously kept blades remove server tendon and add lacerate.

-Tactical Opportunity reduce the internal CD to 8 seconds.

-Culling increase energy return to 6/12

Lethality

-Toxic Regulator In addition to its current effect. Using overload shot on a target affected by your corrosive grenade now grants 1 stack of Tactical Advantage. 10 second internal cd

-Combine Med Shield with Augmented Shields

-Quickening Exflitrate has a 25/50% chance to reset the CD on shield probe this cannot happen more than once every 1 minute 30 seconds.

 

Medicine

-Reduce the base heal from surgical probe by 100. (doesnt sound like much, but its heal is effected by a couple % increases.)

-Needs a talent to replace Med Shield Ideas?

 

Ill post this for a third time. and here ill even put the most important part right here....

-Move Chem-resistant Inlays Medicine tree to concealment in exchange for revitalizers. Buff dr from 2/4% to 3/6% and make it reduce AoE damage by 15/30%

 

Sure maybe you dont need to move revitalizers, but we need those DR's to even be remotely viable for arenas as DPS. Even then im not sure it would be enough. A talent similar to Darkswell for sins will probably end up being needed too..

 

Damage isnt that bad. Ive pulled 1400+ dps in a round before, and that was with no orbital strike damage. Just single target. The problem lies in that if 2 dps even so much as look at you funny, then you turn to mush. There is no off healing, just death. Before you go well just go out of LoS or roll away.. realize that: sure against sub 1k $hitters that will work fine, but against anyone that knows how to play you are dead.

[Transmet]

Your point is what ? Asking for more pew pew by getting a guaranteed second cull for every shiv is ok, but asking for a guaranteed free instant KI for every other roll is out of whack ? It's exactly the same change to a different skill.

 

this right here is how i know you dont play lethality. at what point did i say you would get a free cull with every shiv? i was being sarcastic in my previous post. someone needs to buff your comprehension skills.

Edited November 20, 2013 by Transmet

[Loc_n_lol]

this right here is how i know you dont play lethality. at what point did i say you would get a free cull with every shiv? i was being sarcastic in my previous post. someone needs to buff your comprehension skills.

Sarcasm doesn't translate well to text, especially when there's no clue... (okay "worked very hard", "complex rotation" I get it but I've read worse exagerations from people who were dead serious). Maybe if you were trying to make a point you should just have stated it plainly the first time, not make up a bunch of fake suggestions in a brainstorming (=anything goes) thread and expect everyone to immediately catch on.

[Haystak]

and no, pvp is NOT as much of a part of the community as pve by a long shot.

 

Im sorry at what point does time derping on a loot pinata become worth more than people derping in a warzone.

 

that argument aside, the problem i have with pvp qq is that you spend more time qqing because you're getting destroyed by a lack of skill rather than class flaws.

The same can be said of endgame pve content, not everyone plays the game to perfection, whether it be lack of mental capacity or stubbornes to not adapt to the tools provided.

 

 

unless you are playing pvp at the highest levels balance qqing doesn't apply to you. there are exceptions, but most of the suggestions here are borderline special needs and have adverse affects on how seriously the community can be taken.

 

Its been a long time since scrapper or dirty fighting held its own against half the classes in the game in almost all situations other classes can dish out more damage on dmenad then us, this is most apparent in ranked arenas. In that time there have been thousands of suggestions, most of those suggestions were ignored, and those people left due to the lack of balance in pvp, now we have a new community filled with fresh bodies, who rotate out often as they quickly become dissapointed and move on to another class/to healing/ or to another game. The results are what you see, a forum filled with new players who often voice their opinion, no matter how wrong it is. They continue too support these wild *** suggestions because, unlike healthy pvp communities there are a lack of people who feel the need to correct such asinine suggestions. However the plethora of idiotic reccomendations shouldnt be a deciding factor of why this class shouldnt get any kind of buffs. If we wait for the community to "get better" chances are none of the players who actually know what they are talking about will stay for too long.

Edited November 20, 2013 by Haystak

[Ridickilis]

read slowly, ridic:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=679262

 

I don't see anything that would suggest giving HS an out of stealth proc on a *set bonus*. In fact I see them stating *exactly* what I suggested, giving it to concealment/scrappers.

 

We might consider giving Scrapper/Concealment Scoundrels/Operatives a way to use Shoot First/Hidden Strike outside of stealth, since they already have many skills that improve it, but such a drastic change to gameplay would be more likely to come along in an expansion pack than a balance update.

 

You sure you quoted me the right post?

Edited November 20, 2013 by Ridickilis

[Transmet]

Sarcasm doesn't translate well to text, especially when there's no clue... (okay "worked very hard", "complex rotation" I get it but I've read worse exagerations from people who were dead serious). Maybe if you were trying to make a point you should just have stated it plainly the first time, not make up a bunch of fake suggestions in a brainstorming (=anything goes) thread and expect everyone to immediately catch on.

 

 

i wasnt being sarcastic about the points i was making. i was being sarcastic about the other points people were trying to make, specifically ridiculous core mechanical changes like making kolto probes a cast and KI instant on top of all of the the utility operatives already have in pvp and the fact that you and every other pvper also want to be able to do viable, if not overpowered, damage. lethality is a very complex rotation comparatively. people should try and align their complaints with what the devs would actually consider, not overhaul abilities because you've played a couple of mmos on your resume.

[Transmet]

Im sorry at what point does time derping on a loot pinata become worth more than people derping in a warzone.

 

 

The same can be said of endgame pve content, not everyone plays the game to perfection, whether it be lack of mental capacity or stubbornes to not adapt to the tools provided.

 

Its been a long time since scrapper or dirty fighting held its own against half the classes in the game in almost all situations other classes can dish out more damage on dmenad then us, this is most apparent in ranked arenas. In that time there have been thousands of suggestions, most of those suggestions were ignored, and those people left due to the lack of balance in pvp, now we have a new community filled with fresh bodies, who rotate out often as they quickly become dissapointed and move on to another class/to healing/ or to another game. The results are what you see, a forum filled with new players who often voice their opinion, no matter how wrong it is. They continue too support these wild *** suggestions because, unlike healthy pvp communities there are a lack of people who feel the need to correct such asinine suggestions. However the plethora of idiotic reccomendations shouldnt be a deciding factor of why this class shouldnt get any kind of buffs. If we wait for the community to "get better" chances are none of the players who actually know what they are talking about will stay for too long.

 

i'm not criticizing what style of game you play, but the populations, despite the shouting done by pvpers, are heavily in favor of pve. rpgs by design were originally pve and in my opinion, rpg pvp is terrible design at its core. this is mostly due to stuns and other ccs and lockouts. there's no real strategy to it other than 'kill the healer first' and any time my toon is rendered incapacitated , i'm counting stuns, and my hands can essentially not be on the keyboard is BAD design. if you want real well-designed pvp, play shooters.

 

if you are not playing any game that has a balancing act at the highest levels, you don't have a right to qq about balance. it's impossible to make a game this way. it doesn't matter what mode you are discussing. you actually have to have a desire to get better at your class and learn things. that's the fun. the problem is there is WAY TOO MUCH qq from pvpers that are middling at best in this thread. BW isn't wrong when they are telling people to l2play.

 

a lot of what you said here is true, but there are some major no-nos. you SHOULDN'T be able to do big damage in pvp with a heal tree in your class. you CAN roll away and heal whereas a sniper/mara cannot. the damage we do in concealment should not be comparable. if you don't agree with that then you are missing out on basic logic of a genre such as this. i don't know what else to say. i play concealment in pvp just fine. if you look at the leaderboards in pvp ( i know it is still early) but operatives are doing fine.

 

 

turnover exists in pve as well. most people don't get a chance to play end game. a lot of that reason is because they don't play their class well and more skilled players take their spots in guild rosters and so on. that translates very well into pvp except in pvp you die a lot more, so it's more frustrating and rather than learn to play better, it's time to get outraged and go to the forums with dumb, game breaking ideas. this isn't a new phenomenon. go to any RTS genre game like Starcraft 2. the news flash is, balance can never really be achieved because of its subjectivity and various levels of skill. it is impossible. adjustments can be made in the meta game, but they are incremental. 99% of qq is unjustified. the +5 energy 4 set bonus on pve armor....THAT is justified because the math of it doesn't add up and is plain lazy. you dying a lot in pvp or not doing enough damage is NOT a justified complaint. concealment operatives will never TOP damage short of having an unbelievable run in pvp and they SHOULDN'T. that isn't its role. we're saboteurs. we ninja cap and crush the enemy utility. if that isn't for some people here, reroll.

Edited November 20, 2013 by Transmet

[Arcadius-Fett]

You guys are de-railing the thread, we're here to brainstorm changes to the class. So please, if you feel the need to continue arguing, do it via private messages. There are just as many PvP servers as there are PvE, both are huge parts of the community. So quit acting like children and provide some useful input or drop the petty arguments already.

 

The fact of the matter is, Lethality is already good in PvE, but both DPS specs are hurting in PvP, so much so that BIOWARE made this thread asking for suggestions to improve Concealment and Lethality, mostly due to the problems we face in PvP (and PvE for Concealment) - same for Mercs. So stop the "PvP doesn't matter" mindset and stop going off-topic. Actually no, believe what you want, but know that that is only your opinion and leave others alone while they suggest changes for the class. Feel free to discuss it but try not to be so ignorant and condescending.

Edited November 20, 2013 by Arcadius-Fett

[dbears]

You guys are de-railing the thread, we're here to brainstorm changes to the class. So please, if you feel the need to continue arguing, do it via private messages. There are just as many PvP servers as there are PvE, both are huge parts of the community. So quit acting like children and provide some useful input or drop the petty arguments already.

 

The fact of the matter is, Lethality is already good in PvE, but both DPS specs are hurting in PvP, so much so that BIOWARE made this thread asking for suggestions to improve Concealment and Lethality, mostly due to the problems we face in PvP (and PvE for Concealment) - same for Mercs. So stop the "PvP doesn't matter" mindset and stop going off-topic. Actually no, believe what you want, but know that that is only your opinion and leave others alone while they suggest changes for the class. Feel free to discuss it but try not to be so ignorant and condescending.

 

Kudos to you, sir.