also, as to this, i feel i must point out that, even with the changes over the years, lightning is still a very proccy spec, 30% chance to proc a second strike from, thundering blast, lightning bolt, lightning flash, chain lightning, and crushing darkness ticks, coupled with the fact that these procs tie into the reduction of polarity shift, unless you parse all the time for 10min + dps is always gonna fluctuate ALOT, thats like what, 80%+ of your dps that has a proc to it? which you have no control over at all.

There are several issues with madness which i will try to highlight. First lets look at what the spec lost, 30% surge bonus on dots 30% surge bonus on deathfield 25% passive buff to Forcelighting vs targets effected by creeping terror lightning burns 60% proc from lightning strike ( 1 more reason its currently a dps loss) 10% dmg from wrath 10% dot dmg from deathmark Now compare to the gains new internal dmg ability on 12sec cd 1% more dot dmg 10% aoe buff 5% force dmg buff alot more passive self healing 15% dot dmg vs targets sub 30% there are others, but these are the ones i highlight being the problems, so lets look at them in more detail as to good change/bad change, how it effects madness on both pvp and pve perspective. So, the surge bonus loss, yes it sucks, but its not spec breaking, infact, with the new dotspread its probably justified since even now as the spec is madness has probably the highest AOE potential. so we wont be getting that back, also with the changes to self healing scaling on damage done, which is already out of hand. force lightning nerf, i can live with, we lose 25% passive dmg from before, but as i think people have worked out, the reduction in cd to 2sec nets about 13% dmg increase VS the 3sec cast, so we dont lose too much there either lightning burns - this i think is pretty big, its a double edge nerf in the way that force leech has a 12sec cd and only 60% change to proc it, and with the removal of lightning strike from this ability makes LS even less desirable than before Wrath nerf - this also adds to the lightning strike woes, deathmark reduction - again, see above about surge bonus, this i can also live with since it would only add to inflated aoe dmg, and number padding in WZs, and even more passive healing Force leech - great spell, love it, but lets face it, the healing part, way too much, CD is abit out of sync with everything else also but meh, theres probably ways round it Self healing in general - really nice that they changed this to a % of dmg done, scales with gear, good choice, but right now, the healing i feel is far to strong, especially if we want to see overall dmg increase for us in the future execute phase - ok, we all been wanting it for a long time, but its pretty half arsed, just 15% dot dmg? really?! talk about a small bone, when compared to our Sin brothers double execute phase, a REAL execute on 6secs, aswell as dot+deathfield ( really dunno what they were thinking when making madness/hatred sins, its by far the least similar joint spec of the lot) So to summarize, Too much self healing lightning burns is rubbish lightning strike is rubbish execute phase is meh what i would like to see change? put simply, the devs obviously want, and have always wanted us to use wrath for lightning strike when crushing darkness/demolish is on CD, and i personally would love to use it, and make the priorities abit more interesting, but everytime they fail to make it worth while, - Buff wrath to 50% - simple fix, would make lightning strike viable, aswell as giving demolish a boost,, - Get rid of lightning burns, its rubbish, its RNG and the bonus dmg it gives its crap anyway - reduce self healing by at least 33% overall probably more, since if we get buffed, and our dps goes up, so will the healing, and its already too much - either add deathfield to the execute phase, or scrap it completely for a flat 5-10% dmg increase to all attacks sub 30% Just my thoughts, ive more than likely missed things aswell but these are the most obvious problems that stand out to me

Yeah, i said either internal or 100% coz its basically the same thing, just thinking of both options for which would be easier to impliment. as to the scouting, i thought of having it there so lethality can pick it up, but your right healers would too which is gonna be a problem, so stick it onto shadow op Elite maybe, and sort something for leth, was a little sleepy and 100% immunity is probably abit much, so how about a compromise at 50% force/tech reduction instead the evasion proc? do you mean the "swap of evasive imperative" ? if so that would be tier 1 and easy for leth to pick up, and since leth gets a proc heal on roll ( tho its a **** % chance) they would still get both just chance their proc to 100% too i tried to spread them out so you would have to sacrifice some dps skills/other utility to get them all, and the heal would be a separate 2skill points ( that no-one takes right now) Probably right about the roll distance, was thinking pve there, since 12m is not a great gap closer

oh yeah, forgot about explosive probe, personally i got no problem with needing cover to use this, especially when u can use it to get a bit of distance sometimes, and its there ready to use on my coverbar, but 25 energy for a single target attack with 30sec CD? put it down to 15, Infact, u can change overload shot to 10 while your at it since its still pretty rubbish for 17 energy ooooooooor stick a 50% dmg boost to it on targets below 30% health

Concealment Damage Hidden strike - either internal dmg OR 100% ArPen Acid blade - passive OR 0 energy cost ( personally i love the animation) Backstab - 9 second CD Lacerate - 30% surge bonus Concealed attacks ( tier 1 skill) up the crit chance from 8/16% to 12.5/25% Survival 15/30% aoe reduction added onto "scouting" 100% chance to grant evasion on Exfiltrate via "shadow operative elite" up from 50% (see below for CD) Evasion - dodges all incoming damage for 2 seconds ( 3 with set bonus ) Swap "Evasive Imperative" from heal tree with "survival Training" in concealment tree Sneak - Breaks immobilizing effects - immune to roots/knockbacks while active ( via "Ghost"), "Revitalizers" - passive 1.5 / 3% max health regen every 3 seconds or Exfiltrate has 50/100% chance to make your next Kolto injection Free and instant cast ( see below for CD) QoL Incease range of Exfiltrate to 20meters ( 10 if slowed ) 10 energy cost, 15sec CD "Advanced Cloaking" in addition to current effects, taking damage reduces the CD on Cloaking screen by 3 seconds, cannot occur more once every 1.5seconds )

Ok, lets face it, Rampage offers a massive slice of RnG cake, for 3 skill points, sometimes the dice can shine upon you and u get lots of procs in a row, and other times u can go up to 60+ seconds without one and considering this proc can account for something like 200dps difference i personally think its high time to do away with it completely. Change Rampage to reduce the CD of ravage by 5/10/15 seconds, ( so ravage is a fixed 15sec CD ) in addition increase all damage done to bleeding targets by 1/2/3% Pro's - Fixed ravage CD, no more RnG, slight increase in total DPS, Con's - Slightly increased Downtime ( potentially) on ravage, no more 3 rage on proc, More Global CDs to use with fIller attacks Now potentially this will actually decrease DPS instead of increasing it, though from experience over a long fight the proc on ravage is around 15 seconds This is were Pooled hatred will come in. at the moment, it totally sucks, outside of good luck in PvP and even then its usually not much help since you are most likely being kited at the time, so. Lets make it useful for both PvE and PvP. so the change.... Pooled hatred - increases the critical strike bonus of Bleeds, Force scream, Vicious Throw and Vicious slash by 15/30% per point. in addition reduces the Cost of Force scream and Vicious slash by 1/2 rage. This i believe would mitigate both, the rage loss from rampage proc's as well as the potential Bust in PvP provided by Pooled Hatred from the 20% buff, with the added bonus of Making the Jug 4set PvE bonus more useful for Vengeance. So a summary: What we would lose: - Potential 9 second Ravage potential 3 rage every 9 seconds potential 20% increase to next melee attack What we would gain : - Guaranteed 15 second Ravage 3% total damage increase to Bleeding targets -2 rage cost on force scream, ( basically +2 rage every 9seconds) -2 rage cost on Vicious Slash ( basically a Rage neutral V-slash providing you have 1 rage available) 30% surge bonus to force scream ( basically increasing scream Dmg roughly 17.5% based on 70% surge) 30% surge bonus to Vicious slash 30% surge bonus to Vicious throw 30% surge bonus to bleed damage A better suited 4set PvE bonus Feel free to agree/disagree/call me a raving looney

Concealment is a abit of a mess atm, steadily been nerfed since release, and to be fair on release it was far to strong, but take into account the base dmg of abilities compared to Max health was much higher than it is now. Hidden strike doing 3-6k dmg on players with 16-18k health at release is high, but compare that to now, HS does 3.5-7.5k damage on players with 29-31k health ( not counting tanks), thats a massive difference, and thats just 1 ability. current problems that i see. Burst VS survival, our co stealth class, the assassin currently has bigger burst, aswell as better defensive CDs and more control, maul does more damage than HS currently, isnt tied to stealth and is GETTING BUFFED in 2,5 lol. Now i get that we are supposed to be "sneaky and slippery" so maybe we shouldnt be given good defensive CDs, but, that would mean we need to be SNEAKY AND SLIPPERY" IE harder than other classes to lockdown/control, which less face it we are not, we have no root/knockback protection no Stun/CC protection, Assassins get force shroud which acts as both since all stuns/metz and knockbacks seem to be tech/force attacks. Bottom line, we need some damage buffs added into the tree, we need better energy management, and some more reliable "slippery" abilities to make up for our terrible defenses. So my ideas Changes to Concealment : Waylay - Currently: increases the damage of Backstab by 4% Changed to : Increases the damage of Backstab and Hidden strike by 4% and reduces the CD on Backstab by 3seconds ( 9 sec CD) Collateral Strike - Currently : Laceration has a 70% chance to trigger collateral strike dealing X amount of kinetic Damage Changed to : Laceration has a 100% chance to trigger collateral strike This Skill is tied directly into our energy management since Collateral strike refunds 10 energy when dealing Damage and while 70% seems high, in reality its not a reliable source of energy management in its current form, also the damage from CS is very small, currently only 4-5% of total damage done Calculated Frenzy- Currently Backstab and Hidden strike have 100% chance to trigger CF increasing alacrity by 6% for 15secs Changed to - as above , and in addition using hidden strike and Backstab reduce the cooldown of Stimboost and Adrenal probe by 3 seconds Revitalizers - Stim boost grants 2% health every 3 secs for 15 seconds, a massive 10% health every 2 minutes, and a waste of 2 skill points, this need to be scrapped completely, no-one uses it as its a tiny heal and it promotes sitting on Stimboost when you should be using it early on anyway for burst it can be changed in 2 ways, either increase the healing it does to something like 5% every 3 seconds or : Using stim boost grants Revitalizers for 10secs, making your next kolto injection free and instant cast Shadow operative Elite - grants Exfiltrate 50% chance to trigger evasion for 1 sec, 15sec internal CD, and reduces cost by 4 energy ( still 21) This needs to be changed to 100% chance, since the internal CD is so long and the energy cost is so high, in addition Exfiltrate can be used while immobilized ( theres that SLIPPERY i was talking about ) And Finally Ghost : as well as currently effects, Sneak should now grant immunity to knockbacks/roots while active ( NOT STUNS/METZ)

Sorry to put a massive dent in your argument, but for starters i proposed to to increase the base CD on enraged defense to 90sec, which already cuts the heals in half, putting assassin ahead. And on top of that, you seemed to have glossed over the fact that assassins also heal 15% using overcharge saber, (2min CD) thats already another 16650heals, AND on top of that dark charge? i just logged my Sin to get the number, and its 50% change to heal 358 every 4.5secs. thats potentially another 28640 over a 6min fight so.... thats 116,330-healing for the Sin Vs 69,420-healing for the jug thats 46,910 healing difference with enraged defense staying the same CD. 59,870 difference if u double the CD

Removing the lockout would be a nerf more than a buff in almost all cases, getting back to back procs off shatter+ impale is gonna cause problems, youre gonna be wasting rampage procs, bleed uptime, and force scream as close to CD as possible

Vengeance is easier than pre 2.0? dunno what you been smoking but vengeance was easier at 50, could basically be broken down into 3 fixed rotations, the bleed rotation, the ravage rotation and the rage gen rotation, using which ever was available/off CD at the time. very simple, now its much more priority based, there is no rotations. Infact we proc rampage less now than we did pre 2,0 since shatter has been upped from 9sec to 12sec. Yes its more competative now than before, but the proc is what causes Dps to go from 2600-2900 rather than player decisions. Having such a large DPS margin down to RnG is too big a gap, even with a perfect run of procs every 9 seconds you wont see more than 3-3.1k and when maras mercs and snipers are doing over 3k, (some much higher) it certainly wont be OP

The underlying problem is the threat drop, Every other class has a free threat drop with assassins/operatives the best of all giving 100% threat drop aswell as secondary benifits from stealthing. Having a threat drop tied to another ability that costs resources is crazy. Jugs need a totally separate threat drop equal to the other classes ( chaff flare/countermeasures etc ) on a 45sec CD. If you are worried about ED becoming yet another tank CD, well, it already is in many respects, threat has 0 impact at all in PvP so it can be used without thought, and a decent immortal tank can find uses for it already in PvE especially since u can offset alot of the threat lost with clever use of taunts, even now its the best CD to deal with lightning field damage on Dread Guards NiM, it practically offsets all the dmg except the last hit. Also i think people are over estimating how much it actually heals on a single target boss you are lucky to get 4-5 ticks in the 10sec it lasts, thats only 12-15% health and that is totally relying upon u saving rage for the heal running the risk of letting crushing blow/retaliation buffs dropping off, which are better than a tiny heal, And in an AOE tanking situation, outside of reflect jugs have the weakest mitigation anyway with the lowest shield/absorb so a couple more heal ticks from ED really isnt going to throw the balance out the window. Adding a flat DR across the board is certainly going to make it worse., Vengeance and Rage both have skill points specifically Linked to Enraged Def, THAT is where any DR buffs should be added like vengeance already has. Personally i already like how the heal mechanic works, Even the rage spent per heal is fine, as it is you need to be clever about when and how you use it to get the most out of it, where as adding a flat DR % and a flat heal% to it is just gonna turn it into another "o-****" CD. The one thing i do like though is adding a longer Cooldown on it as Base and using the skill points in Venge/Rage to reduce that back down. i think 2minutes is too long, 90secs the same as Endure Pain as they work very well together. So tbh, Remove the threat drop completely Increase base CD to 90secs Remove the initial rage cost Keep the rage spent per 3% heal on taking damage with 1sec internal CD. Add a 22.5/45 second CD per point to "Deafening defense" in Vengeance Tree Add a 22.5/45 second CD per point to "Through passion" in the Rage tree Now for me, the main question is Do we give "Through passion" the same DR % base as Vengeance, or do people want it to be more unique to the Rage tree, since Vengeance has more DR overall with "unstoppable" ? Someone already proposed a high DR buff with it reducing rapidly over time, i quite like this idea, but i have another one which is abit crazy and would be totally unique to rage: Through Passion - Reduces the active CD of Enraged Defense by 22.5/45 second per point, in addition Enraged Defense Grants 3 stacks of ( insert appropriate buff name ) increasing Damage reduction by 25%, Stacks are consumed when taking Direct damage ( basically not dots ) Lasts 10 seconds Again these are just personal opinions/ideas based on playing experience and looking at the ideas already in this thread. As to the point that this thread is supposedly going off topic, i think the community brain storming, raising ideas and concerns is the best way for the Class Rep to construct his Questions to put to the Devs as and when he does. Just looking over the posts there are already 2 "questions" that are high up there, the 3rd not so clear. My view so far is Question 1 - Enraged defense: how it works for all 3 classes and the threat drop. Was it designed as a PvP ability with the threat drop for PvE thrown in as an after thought? Question 2 - Rampage Proc: should it Be as RnG based as it is already? was ravage intended as the Focus of the spec or is it Just a Gimic/Bonus Question 3. no idea........ Slows? Chilling scream is definately not inline with other class slows in my opinion after the change to make it free/low global not available to all specs, Yes its aoe, yes it has no CD but it costs a global and alot of resource. virtually every class has a passive slow attached to 1 or more abilities. Rage is Fine as it is. it has Oppressor , the most mobile dmg of the specs, and escape from roots with obliterate Vengeance needs a passive slow fixed to one or more of its bleeds, the 15% movement boost to shien form was a good start but still not enough having to rely on chilling scream with is high rage cost Adding a 50% slow to the bleed from impale would work, would last 6seconds and can be applied every ~9seconds, would only ever effect 1 target at a time. Immortal, adding a 6second 30% slow to "Crushing Fist" would be great, PvE tanks dont take ( or shouldnt ) thrown gauntlet so a slow attached to smash without having to waste a global on Chilling scream, which could be used in getting threat. 30% in PvP isnt exactly game breaking and Chilling scream will overwrite it with a more powerful slow, at the cost of a global

I see alot of people saying sorc DPS is still falling behind other classes so what do people think about a very simple change of making Crushing Darkness internal damage instead Kinetic? not a huge change, definately not overpowered, would bring madness closer to lightning and make the deathfield charges used with Crushing darkness more effective and increase total dps of both specs by a small margin, more so for madness. Its also such a small change to coding i cant see it being hard to do.

Love these proposed changes, though im a little bit worried about the "point 4", while i have suggested this exact thing for madness sorc i do not think it is the answer to bleeds being cleansed as Anni. The problem i see is that bleeds+ the self healing they do are a very strong part of Anni in PvP, having the dots deal instant dmg when cleansed would remove quite alot of that self healing, SO i propose another method which is. Duel saberthrow provides a 10sec debuff making all bleeds none Dispellable for the duration. this would not only let bleed do alot of their damage while maintaining the self heal mechanic for longer periods, But it would also a risk/reward element to it, for example: you could Open with duelsaber throw from distance before bleeds are applied ( i regularly use DST with deadly saber so it stacks 1 stack straight away ) giving you 7-8 secs of bleed time immunity after charge, with the downside of having a few seconds of Lower bleed dmg. Take into account that DST is on 18sec cooldown so healers will have to be extra smart and can still time there dispell for after the debuff runs out. OR the more risky but more rewarding senario would be stacking bleeds as normal, you are knocked back and rooted u then have the option of DST then making sure your bleeds cannot be dispelled while you are knocked back, the risk to this would be it gives healers the chance if they are quick off the mark to dispell your bleeds before u have fully stacked them reducing the effectiveness of the 10sec Debuff. I think it would add a new skill element to both the Mara ( when best to time DST) and the healer, whens the best time to dispell, and even for rubbish healers, making them use a global CD to try dispell DoTs while the debuff is active,

Making the aoe taunt a threat dump and linking taunts to tank stance is a VERY bad idea sorry. It would do more harm than good, taunts in PvP are a huge boost to the outcome of a battle and restricting them to tanks will only make the good classes stand out even more and Cut some Great Utility for Dps jugs On the whole Enraged defence is a great ability, that just needs abit of tweaking, as it is its fine for venge, the heal mechanic is fine just need adjusting and u can couple it with Endure Pain to get the most out of the heal. The changes i would make to it is 1stly Remove the activation cost. its the only Threat dump in game that costs resources and its ALOT ( 1/3 our total resource) Remove the threat Dump while in soresu form, This would make it useful in PvE as a mini CD, its fine for tanks in PvP, and for Rage i love the idea of a DR defensive buff, Kudos on that idea

Cant say ive every really like how consumption works at all, think its crazy a healer should have to sacrifice health for resource, and for Dps, especially in PvP its a death sentence. id rather they replace it with something like. Force leech/Battle meditation - draws upon the force around you, restoring 20% max force over 3 seconds, (5% instantly) make it a channel, so it can be interupted, and on a 1minute CD. in addition change Force Surge to increase this by 2.5/5% per stack of Force surge, for a total of 35% force with 3 stacks. This could solve Madness's current force issue abit, aswell as getting rid of the sadist ability. Self hurt BW? i thought Starwars was a family friendly. OR maybe its a silly idea and im just tired