Operative DPS Brainstorming

[eartharioch]

I don't know why there are so many people that want to get rid of Hidden Strike and make Acid Blade a passive ability. I love the animation of Hidden Strike and the metallic sound when you use Acid Blade.

 

Changing/deleting these abilities doesn't serve any purpose other than to have less keybinds. It'll only cause more work for the Devs when they could be working on more important things.

 

Agree that the animations are cool, but:

 

1) As I pointed out earlier when suggesting combining HS and BS, it would increase DPS. In addition to saving a keybind, there are "issues" with the client still showing us in stealth when it's technically been broken, so when we use HS, it fails,so then we have to use BS, which may now fail if the target has moved and we are no longer considered "behind" (even though we can't tell because there is no clear "back" to the target circle). So, we then have to use a *third* ability. I.e, due to interface (not skill) issues. So, we can lose a few GCDs before starting to damage target, and lose our most powerful abilities.

 

2) AB as a passive would save energy and a keybind.

 

BTW, saving keybinds on a keybind-heavy class is a good thing (QoL) just by itself.

[Racter]

Don't want or need either of those changes in the slightest. Definitely not when you consider BS has a 12s cd and a BS from stealth would trigger it. They would not let us instantly reuse it. Would also be a DPS LOSS as you would never be able to acid blade for 12s continuously.

 

No thanks.

[dbears]

Agree that the animations are cool, but:

 

1) As I pointed out earlier when suggesting combining HS and BS, it would increase DPS. In addition to saving a keybind, there are "issues" with the client still showing us in stealth when it's technically been broken, so when we use HS, it fails,so then we have to use BS, which may now fail if the target has moved and we are no longer considered "behind" (even though we can't tell because there is no clear "back" to the target circle). So, we then have to use a *third* ability. I.e, due to interface (not skill) issues. So, we can lose a few GCDs before starting to damage target, and lose our most powerful abilities.

 

2) AB as a passive would save energy and a keybind.

 

BTW, saving keybinds on a keybind-heavy class is a good thing (QoL) just by itself.

 

By no means am I trying to start an argument here but I need some clarification. How does combining Hidden Strike and Backstab "increase DPS" exactly? I mean, you Hidden Strike with Acid Blade, Shiv, Laceration, etc. until the DOT falls off, then you Backstab with Acid Blade. I don't see how replacing Hidden Strike with Backstab there increases DPS, EVEN IF they made it so using Backstab from stealth does not trigger its cooldown.

 

In my opinion, losing GCDs (which I was unaware trigger even if the ability can't be used) because of bad programming calls for bug fixes, not a class rework.

 

Making Acid Blade a passive would save energy, yes, but they're not going to give us free energy. They'd have to increase the energy cost of Backstab and Hidden Strike to account for the energy we'd be saving from a passive Acid Blade.

 

A keybind heavy class? I don't agree. But even if it were, you have 1,2,3,4,5, shift+1,2,3,4,5 q,e,z,x,r,f,v. I mean, what abilities are you using as a DPS Operative O_o

[eartharioch]

Don't want or need either of those changes in the slightest. Definitely not when you consider BS has a 12s cd and a BS from stealth would trigger it. They would not let us instantly reuse it. Would also be a DPS LOSS as you would never be able to acid blade for 12s continuously.

 

No thanks.

 

1) There are a lot of ways to implement this, I definitely would not want an implementation that triggered HS but put BS on cooldown. I'd like to press one button when I'm in position (as far as I can tell) and get HS (on it's own CD) if Stealth+Behind and BS (on it's own CD) if Behind but not in Stealth (or if, for whatever reason, I'm Behind and in Stealth and HS is still on CD). There are several ways to implement this, but that's the logic I'm looking for. Basically, I'm not looking to change the abilities specifications, just make it so that what happens in the game more closely resembles what it should (per specification) based on what the client is showing me when I choose to activate the ability.

 

2) I didn't suggest the passive AB, but (other then losing the animation), I don't see a problem -- people aren't complaining about Conc Ops having "too easy" energy management. Make it a Set Bonus to make it be passive (replace the +5 Energy) Or just make it auto-reapply after usage (for 0 Energy)...we get to keep the animation and free up a keybind.

[eartharioch]

By no means am I trying to start an argument here but I need some clarification. How does combining Hidden Strike and Backstab "increase DPS" exactly? I mean, you Hidden Strike with Acid Blade, Shiv, Laceration, etc. until the DOT falls off, then you Backstab with Acid Blade. I don't see how replacing Hidden Strike with Backstab there increases DPS, EVEN IF they made it so using Backstab from stealth does not trigger its cooldown.

 

In my opinion, losing GCDs (which I was unaware trigger even if the ability can't be used) because of bad programming calls for bug fixes, not a class rework.

 

Making Acid Blade a passive would save energy, yes, but they're not going to give us free energy. They'd have to increase the energy cost of Backstab and Hidden Strike to account for the energy we'd be saving from a passive Acid Blade.

 

A keybind heavy class? I don't agree. But even if it were, you have 1,2,3,4,5, shift+1,2,3,4,5 q,e,z,x,r,f,v. I mean, what abilities are you using as a DPS Operative O_o

 

1) Detecting and eliminating "race conditions" is just part of good design and programming. The current design is what allows the race condition (the server determines that my Stealth is broken, sends a notification to my client, but I activate HS before my client receives the update, so my client sends my attack to the server, which then rejects it because I'm in not Stealth). My suggestion prevents that scenario (there is still the behind/not-behind issue, but that's a separate matter). There are other ways to address the issue, but IMO would add complexity to the system and have other problems. It's not a code issue, at best additional coding could reduce the window at a likely higher overhead, whereas my solution eliminates the window.

 

2) I consider it "keybind heavy" because I have more skills that need quickly accessible keybinds than I have keys to bind. This comes because I effectively have two skill sets -- stealth and nonstealth. Also, in order to make use of my high mobility, my "best" keys are ones which can be easily used while moving, so I will have part of my left hand "pinned" to w/a/d, so need to be able to reach these keys with my left index finger. Having to use Shift/CTRL/ALT interferes with this.

 

Edit: A/D are strafe, not turns, I turn with mouse; I'm trying to use mouse to go forward, but I find that it makes stopping too difficult.

Edited December 2, 2013 by eartharioch

[Greyif]

Baseline:

Reduce backstab cooldown by 3 seconds.

Reduce shield probe cooldown by 15 seconds.

Reduce overload shot energy cost by 2.

 

Skill Tree:

(Concealment) Make "Pin Down" baseline. -Sever tendon always immobilizes for 2 seconds.

(Concealment) Add "Advanced Shield Generator": Increased the amount absorbed by shield probe by 25%/50% and gives it a 12.5%/25% chance to reflect melee and ranged attacks for 50% damage. (To replace pin down)

(Concealment) Make "Waylay" baseline.

(Concealment) Add "Coup de grace": Increase damage done by overload shot by 70% on targets below 30% health, if target does not die overload shot goes on cooldown for 9 seconds.

 

Edit: Making Making shadow operative elite baseline and adding an aoe dmg reduction talent would be great.

 

These are just rough ideas, obviously tweaking for balance is #1 priority.

Edited December 3, 2013 by Greyif

[MustrumRidcully]

Don't want or need either of those changes in the slightest. Definitely not when you consider BS has a 12s cd and a BS from stealth would trigger it. They would not let us instantly reuse it. Would also be a DPS LOSS as you would never be able to acid blade for 12s continuously.

 

No thanks.

 

Actually, that could be exactly one way to get the current behaviour with one power less.

 

When you use Backstab from stealth, you get a bit of an extra damage bonus and the knockdown proc, and also Backstab instantly refreshes. Backstack could be the same out of stealth as it is now.

 

That would allow keeping the current damage output - including the specific timing - identical to now, but we now need one ability less to do so.

[Racter]

I think I'm done with these threads. Far too many outright stupid ideas that would do absolutely nothing to help the class or would make us so blatantly OP that I can't believe someone who actually plays this class would suggest it.

 

Bioware will never make any useful changes to this class. Give up and reroll an Assassin.

[wollegol]

I think I'm done with these threads. Far too many outright stupid ideas that would do absolutely nothing to help the class or would make us so blatantly OP that I can't believe someone who actually plays this class would suggest it.

 

Bioware will never make any useful changes to this class. Give up and reroll an Assassin.

 

Already did it =)

 

To few players still have operative dps as their main, BW has no interest in fixing the class

[Cordorian]

I think I'm done with these threads. Far too many outright stupid ideas that would do absolutely nothing to help the class or would make us so blatantly OP that I can't believe someone who actually plays this class would suggest it.

 

Bioware will never make any useful changes to this class. Give up and reroll an Assassin.

 

Rerolled combat sent, you are not that sneaky, but you have survivability and actual burst.... and sometimes you can still ninja

 

and yes the dps operatives will never properly get fixed for pvp (in pve there is viable dps spec though), since bw is blatantly unaware the stealth in most situations in pvp is really helpfull at all ( appart from node guarding and ninjaing, which is game changing after all). Just had a concealment operative open on me (on the sent) in an arena a few days a ago. What happen, once the knockdown wears of I aoe mez, he gets hard switched on and dead.

The survivability is just to bad to be of any use and we would need meleeish CDs to become remotely viable, which will not get (as they already stated). You ask for damage buff and everything, but the major problem is not the damage, (lethality is actually more than just fine in this regard) you just are too easy to shut down once you are out of stealth. As such operative, like sorc healer now is victim of arenas, because they are the last dps in the world you want on your team.

[Uber_the_Goober]

(Concealment) Add "Coup de grace": Increase damage done by overload shot by 70% on targets below 30% health, if target does not die overload shot goes on cooldown for 9 seconds.

 

I like this idea for an "execute" ability. Overload shot is utterly worthless as is, but this would help. I disagree about the "if target does not die" part - I say just put it on cooldown regardless, similar to the Sniper's "Takedown"

[dbears]

Yes, make Overload Shot an execute usable on enemies under 30% health. 6 second cooldown. Make a 2 point talent that gives Collateral Strike a 30% chance to make the Overload Shot execute free and usable on a target of any health. Give that a 20 second cooldown.

[Racter]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. LOL GUYS GIVE US AN EXECUTE AND THEN LET US PROC IT LIKE MARAUDERS AND JUGGERNAUTS LOL IT'S CLEARLY WHY MARAS GET TAKEN OVER US.

 

Yeah. that's totally what DPS Ops need bros. rofl

[dbears]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. LOL GUYS GIVE US AN EXECUTE AND THEN LET US PROC IT LIKE MARAUDERS AND JUGGERNAUTS LOL IT'S CLEARLY WHY MARAS GET TAKEN OVER US.

 

Yeah. that's totally what DPS Ops need bros. rofl

 

ROFL LOL BROS. I HAVE NOTHING BETTER TO DO THAN MONITOR A THREAD AND POKE MY HEAD OUT FROM UNDER THE BRIDGE NOW AND THEN AND BE UNPRODUCTIVE.

 

It's called brainstorming for a reason. Throw any and all random ideas out there, regardless of how ridiculous others may see them. Then have a civil, constructive discussion (which is clearly beyond your scope) to see if it's something viable. Then again, you probably neglected the read the uncapitalized portion of this post and will reply with something equally as retarded as what i quoted, or you'll forget about this thread and jump back in some time down the road with a comment just as stupid as before.

[Racter]

ROFL LOL BROS. I HAVE NOTHING BETTER TO DO THAN MONITOR A THREAD AND POKE MY HEAD OUT FROM UNDER THE BRIDGE NOW AND THEN AND BE UNPRODUCTIVE.

 

It's called brainstorming for a reason. Throw any and all random ideas out there, regardless of how ridiculous others may see them. Then have a civil, constructive discussion (which is clearly beyond your scope) to see if it's something viable. Then again, you probably neglected the read the uncapitalized portion of this post and will reply with something equally as retarded as what i quoted, or you'll forget about this thread and jump back in some time down the road with a comment just as stupid as before.

 

Frankly posts asking for things like the execute are so stupid that's all the response they deserve. 95% of this thread is regstar ******* nonsense. I will continue to drop in and call stupid ideas stupid, if only because I have nothing better to do in between queue pops. If you want productive, read back a page or two, or read our class question response thread. I outlined very clearly exactly what this class needs to be viable as a DPS in the current meta. Anything less, and I mean literally one single variation from that, is a total waste of time and the class will remain unusable as a DPS. Simple as that. I have made similar posts for every spec of every class, they ignore all of it as usual, and as usual only a few specs will be viable in ranked.

 

However, I am pretty sure this game wont stay up much past Q1 2014 regardless of what they do at this point. I would like to retire my Marauder and switch to concealment for the last three or four months of ranked, but I'm fully aware they wont make that a viable choice. They very clearly have no idea how to balance healers, tanks or dps relative to each other and obviously have no idea what to do with stealth. lol

[dbears]

Frankly posts asking for things like the execute are so stupid that's all the response they deserve. 95% of this thread is regstar ******* nonsense. I will continue to drop in and call stupid ideas stupid, if only because I have nothing better to do in between queue pops. If you want productive, read back a page or two, or read our class question response thread. I outlined very clearly exactly what this class needs to be viable as a DPS in the current meta. Anything less, and I mean literally one single variation from that, is a total waste of time and the class will remain unusable as a DPS. Simple as that. I have made similar posts for every spec of every class, they ignore all of it as usual, and as usual only a few specs will be viable in ranked.

 

However, I am pretty sure this game wont stay up much past Q1 2014 regardless of what they do at this point. I would like to retire my Marauder and switch to concealment for the last three or four months of ranked, but I'm fully aware they wont make that a viable choice. They very clearly have no idea how to balance healers, tanks or dps relative to each other and obviously have no idea what to do with stealth. lol

 

This post isn't just about PvP. It's about bringing Concealment up to par with other classes in PvE as well (lethality is already in a pretty good spot).

 

It's common knowledge the TTK an Operative DPS is much lower than that of any other class. The whole game needs a serious balance overhaul which is again common knowledge. What i, and i'm sure others would appreciate, is some constructive criticism on the ideas that are presented. You took the time to go on your rant that i'm responding to. If you took even half that time to gives reasons and then dismiss what people are suggesting, it would contribute much more to the thread than just laughing and being a clown.

[WilliamMarshal]

For Concealment Op make it so exfiltrate has a 100% chance to activate evasion with a 10 second cd,

 

Ghost makes it so sneak out of combat resets hidden strike and allows us to use it out of stealth with full effect.

 

Increase shield absorb amount for concealment ops like lethality gets if they put points into it.

 

Remove Sever tendon from meticulously kept blades and put laceration and shiv on there, seriously it doesnt make sense.

 

Give Laceration a 30-40% chance to reset the cd of back stab whether it be by a talent or built in passively.

 

Remove some of the damage from Acide blade and add it to hidden strike and backstab.

 

Make Stim boost give us 10 energy regen instead of 10% alacrity.

 

Calculated frenzy should increase our evasion % by say 10% or damage, alacrity is near useless for concealment ops.

 

Tactical opportunity, this should probably have its 10 second ICD removed, or atleast shortened t like 5 secs at most. It sucks when it doesnt proc and you cant spam your medium damage attack like every other class.

 

That is just my wishlist. I find that my biggest annoyances are those. I would like more survivability but cant think of a way for this to happen without us becoming op. Maybe give us a talent that each time we take damage we reduce the cd of our battle stealth by 6 seconds. Most classes get that for their damage reduction shield, Id be content with that or maybe it reducing the cd of shield probe each hit by 6 secs.

[dbears]

Ghost makes it so sneak out of combat resets hidden strike and allows us to use it out of stealth with full effect.

 

The amount of burst we would have would be far too high with this. Think about it

 

We'd have our opening Hidden Strike from Stealth with Acid Blade + knockdown.

Then we could Backstab with Acid Blade.

Use Sneak to allow us to use Hidden Strike with Acid Blade again and knock them down again.

Use Cloaking Screen and get another Hidden Strike with Acid Blade and knock them down again.

Use Sneak (since exiting Stealth finished the CD for Concealment) and get another Hidden Strike with Acid Blade and knock them down again (if their Resolve still isn't full lol).

Then Explosive Probe them and Lacerate the hell out of them.

 

I can't seem them allowing that unfortunately lol.

[Uber_the_Goober]

I outlined very clearly exactly what this class needs to be viable as a DPS in the current meta. Anything less, and I mean literally one single variation from that, is a total waste of time and the class will remain unusable as a DPS. Simple as that. I have made similar posts for every spec of every class, they ignore all of it as usual, and as usual only a few specs will be viable in ranked.

 

So in other words, you're so ridiculously awesome, but nobody listens to your ideas? You're the only guy who could possibly have anything worthwhile to say?

 

Your ideas will NEVER get implemented, simply because of the attitude with which you present them. That's a fact - people will only deal with those who are pleasant to deal with. The devs of this game are not shaking in their boots at the fear of displeasing you, or losing your sub.

 

They're driven by money, plain and simple. A few who work at Bioware want the game to be fair and fun for all, because they're hardcore gamers at heart. It's those few you need to appeal to, and being a dou_chenozzle spewing your "I'm so great you BETTER LISTEN" nonsense will get you nowhere fast.

[WilliamMarshal]

The amount of burst we would have would be far too high with this. Think about it

 

We'd have our opening Hidden Strike from Stealth with Acid Blade + knockdown.

Then we could Backstab with Acid Blade.

Use Sneak to allow us to use Hidden Strike with Acid Blade again and knock them down again.

Use Cloaking Screen and get another Hidden Strike with Acid Blade and knock them down again.

Use Sneak (since exiting Stealth finished the CD for Concealment) and get another Hidden Strike with Acid Blade and knock them down again (if their Resolve still isn't full lol).

Then Explosive Probe them and Lacerate the hell out of them.

 

I can't seem them allowing that unfortunately lol.

 

The amount of burst we have? You mean if we crit? You mean if we crit for 6.5k? Acid blade is a do that doesnt stack, they should make acid blade stack, that would be awesome, but that aside, if I hidden strike twice an backstab all with acid blade, an they all crit, then thats maybe 21k burst right away on squishies, assassins mault crit twice and do that, 3 and you are dead. This would allow us to save our vanish for its designed use. Sneak only resets when we come out of stealth, that happens once a battle, so getting 4 hidden strikes off for 6k isnt nearly as op as you would think it was, considering every other class can do 24k damage in 3 shots.

 

Oh no we gotta blow a 1 min cd for a 1.5 KD, not game breaking but nice. It wouldnt be op, I use my vanish for an extra hidden strike all the time, it doesnt make me op at all. Explosive prbe does 5-5.5k crits and lacerate can d 5k crits including its proc damage. This is all assuming we crit with every attack which happens maybe once a wz.

[dbears]

The amount of burst we have? You mean if we crit? You mean if we crit for 6.5k? Acid blade is a do that doesnt stack, they should make acid blade stack, that would be awesome, but that aside, if I hidden strike twice an backstab all with acid blade, an they all crit, then thats maybe 21k burst right away on squishies, assassins mault crit twice and do that, 3 and you are dead. This would allow us to save our vanish for its designed use. Sneak only resets when we come out of stealth, that happens once a battle, so getting 4 hidden strikes off for 6k isnt nearly as op as you would think it was, considering every other class can do 24k damage in 3 shots.

 

Oh no we gotta blow a 1 min cd for a 1.5 KD, not game breaking but nice. It wouldnt be op, I use my vanish for an extra hidden strike all the time, it doesnt make me op at all. Explosive prbe does 5-5.5k crits and lacerate can d 5k crits including its proc damage. This is all assuming we crit with every attack which happens maybe once a wz.

 

You say Assassins Maul for 10.5k. I've never been Mauled for more than 8k on my Operative. 10.5k maybe if the attacker was in full Obroan Augmented and the victim was a fresh 55. That is also assuming Maul crits both times as well.

 

Assassin burst is huge. Recklessness with Discharge and Shock plus a couple Mauls is gross. But if they do what you've suggested with Sneak, we'll get 4 Hidden Strikes in a row which would effectively stunlock someone for 6 seconds while you wail on them (assuming resolve doesn't engage. I don't think Hidden Strikes knockdown gives a lot of resolve, could be wrong). If you played the game at release, you'd know that they changed Jarring Strike from a 3 second knockdown to 1.5 seconds very quickly because people were infact using Cloaking Screen to get another Hidden Strike which would stunlock players for 6 seconds.

[Uber_the_Goober]

If you played the game at release, you'd know that they changed Jarring Strike from a 3 second knockdown to 1.5 seconds very quickly because people were infact using Cloaking Screen to get another Hidden Strike which would stunlock players for 6 seconds.

 

In groups no less, patrolling the warzones like a pack of wild hyenas. Pressing the unsub button for their hapless victims.

Edited December 5, 2013 by Uber_the_Goober

[MustrumRidcully]

If some people say the more pressing concern is survivability for the non-healers... Well, one way to do that would be to attach this to powers along-side the different trees.

 

Some skills that come to mind

- Tactical Opportunity (Concealment: When the player has TA, he could gain a dodge bonus, and he gains one TA when his hit points go below 50 % and below 25 => that means you also get some TA when it'S you that get surprised and get focused fire, and you have some defensive benefit from it)

- Calculated Frenzy (Concealment: Frenzy could grant some damage resistance)

- Augmented Shield (Lethality: When the shields damage absorption maximum is reached before it expires, you also get a kolto injection or something similar in effect.)

- Escape Plan (Lethality: When your hit points are lowered to 25 %, your shield probe instantly finishes cooldown)

 

I am not sure however how changes to Lethality would affect the Sniper in undue ways. If that is a problem... I dunno.

[WilliamMarshal]

You say Assassins Maul for 10.5k. I've never been Mauled for more than 8k on my Operative. 10.5k maybe if the attacker was in full Obroan Augmented and the victim was a fresh 55. That is also assuming Maul crits both times as well.

 

Assassin burst is huge. Recklessness with Discharge and Shock plus a couple Mauls is gross. But if they do what you've suggested with Sneak, we'll get 4 Hidden Strikes in a row which would effectively stunlock someone for 6 seconds while you wail on them (assuming resolve doesn't engage. I don't think Hidden Strikes knockdown gives a lot of resolve, could be wrong). If you played the game at release, you'd know that they changed Jarring Strike from a 3 second knockdown to 1.5 seconds very quickly because people were infact using Cloaking Screen to get another Hidden Strike which would stunlock players for 6 seconds.

 

Lol if the stun duration is your argument its skewed. Sins can stun you for 4 seconds, KD you for 1.5-2 secs and then incap you for 4 seconds before resolve fills up. Ops can hidden strike KD and stun you before resolve is filled up. And guess what, if you HS stun them 4 times in a row for 6 secs of stun, that means their resolve is full now, if you use HS and then debilitate their resolve is filled and its 5.5 secs of stun, not much of a difference except that we become a threat offensively. HS at best does what, 7k? And realistically all 4 in a row wont crit, but lets assume they do, thats 28k on squishy targets who just stand there. Now sins can hit me with full expertise gear for 10k if they get relic procs, but on average its 8-9k, so lets say they spam 3 mauls on me for 8k then use a rock throw with 85% crit chance that hits for another 8k, you do the math, in the same time they 32k damage without having to vanish and use sneak to get that damage reset. We would have to use sneak, and cloaking screen and sneak again just to get even close to that damage.

 

Lets point out how smash monkeys can do 10k crits every like 6 seconds if they have uptime, and they can ravage for another 15k inbetween, every class can put out the hurt alot faster and better than operative. Hell Id be happy if they lowered the cd of hidden strike, and allowed it to be used out of stealth passively, but the KD was only useable when in stealth, that would make it alot more balanced right?

[Sideblaze]

Let's just all agree that the devs have no idea how class balance works, accept it, and talk about how fat Darth Baras is.