Scoundrel DPS Brainstorming

[EricMusco]

Hey everyone,

 

As you are no doubt aware, we are being careful in how fast and how drastic we make Class changes. Although we are starting that journey in Game Update 2.5, that is certainly not all of the changes that will happen in the future. As a part of that, one of the things we agree on is that DPS Scoundrels could use a little bit of love.

 

The reason I am making this thread, is that we are curious on what your ideas might be for your class! This is specifically for Scrapper and Dirty Fighting. What changes would you like to see to those specs to give them a little bit of help in PvE and PvP.

 

I am going to be combing through this thread and passing your feedback on to the Combat team. I do want to add a disclaimer to this. Just because a suggestion is made in this thread, or even agreed on by multiple posters, in no way implies it will be put into the game. The purpose of this is to share ideas. At the end of the day it will still come down to the decisions of the Combat Team! This is just an opportunity to add some player insight to the discussion.

 

If you are more of the Operative persuasion, there is a separate thread for that, here.

 

-eric

Edited October 28, 2013 by EricMusco

[Technohic]

Get rid of the speed boost on sneak in scrapper and make it more similar to blackout in deception assassin builds. Doesn't have to be the same, but some defense increase and energy regen or, in stead of energy regen, maybe a power boost?

 

Just spit-balling.

[DrKlep]

Given that we just had a class representative thread which was roughly 20 pages of suggestions which were almost completely ignored, and the fact that the community has been raising the issues with this AC and potential solutions for those issues for over a year which were almost completely ignored, why should we expect anything different to come from this thread?

 

EDIT: I want to make clear that I am not trying to be sarcastic or flippant or dismissive. This is a serious question. I really want to know what makes this thread different than previous times we've raised issues. Particularly after the insulting survivability nerf we're getting at the same time that Shadows are getting a damage buff.

Edited October 28, 2013 by DrKlep

[JMagee]

I agree that Disappearing Act/Sneak needs to be re-purposed in some capacity. (For Scrapper)

 

When I'm playing my Infiltration Shadow, Force Cloak/Shadow's Respite have situational Cool Down Priority because of the utility they have. I know I can cheat on my Force regen a bit when they are about to be used. It's something I think about and plan around.

 

With Disappearing Act/Sneak I go whole boss fights in Ops without using them. If I see a good string of crits roll out in a row, I can pop surrender to drop aggro (while the shadow doesn't have a partial threat drop, so Force Cloak is it) and the speed boost provided by sneak, while nice, is well..so underwhelming compared to increased force regen out of stealth as is the case in Infiltration.

 

Using Disappearing Act to pop into stealth to use Shoot First is important, but with all the raid-wide AoE in some boss encounters, if you aren't smart enough, you'll be out of combat long before you're able to use Shoot First. And don't even get me started on trash pulls trying to get into position to Shoot First only to be knocked out of stealth by sweeping gunfire or some droid that is conveniently equipped with Advanced Stealth Detection. But I digress.

 

So I think if you can come up with a way to make DA/Sneak more useful to Scrappers, it would help a lot. Energy regen may be a bit of a lazy way to do it (too close to Infiltration) but having better energy recuperation options would certainly improve DPS.

 

Maybe something along the lines of changing the speed boost to 1/2 50%/100% to provide 1 Upper Hand. It's similar to Shadow's Respite, but it's not exactly energy regen. Or as a slight change to that/in addition, while Sneak is active, you can use Shoot First out of stealth. I don't think being able to build 2 UH stacks would be fair, but I think giving Scrappers a way to use Shoot First more is a good thing.

 

I'm sort of loathe to suggest adding passive damage increases/armor penetration to Sneak because it really doesn't mesh with the ability itself, but that would provide an additional avenue for Scrapper DPS boosts.

Edited October 28, 2013 by JMagee

[venomlash]

Scrapper:

 

--Surprise Comeback needs to be reworked. It was useful before, when Pugnacity was active almost all the time. But now that Pugnacity is a burst-damage CD instead of a buff that needs to be constantly maintained, the heal is negligible. Maybe make the talent grant a small passive self-heal while Upper Hand or Rolling Punches is active...

 

--Now that we have Scamper, the speed boost from using Sneak out of stealth isn't as important. It could be made more like Blackout for Infiltration Shadows, or it could be left as is. Not super-important at this point. EDIT: I support the above poster's suggestion of Sneak allowing us to use Shoot First out of stealth. However, Shoot First being used out of stealth shouldn't trigger the knockdown from the K.O. talent, or we'll become warzone-dominating stunlockers. (As much fun as that would be for my Scrapper, Concealment Operatives already give me the willies enough.)

 

--Stopping Power rustles my jimmies a bit. When a player is immobilized, they can't turn, right? Well, this doesn't apply to mobs; they can turn while immobilized. Since the Scrapper needs to be behind the target most of the time, being able to stop a target from turning would be very useful in solo PvE play. (Infiltration gets Low Slash basically for this purpose.) Especially considering how bad tank companions are at holding threat (they tend to pop taunts early, meaning that it's easy to pull aggro from them a little later on), it would be nice to give us a tool to stop mobs from turning. Can Stopping Power's immobilization from Tendon Blast do this please?

 

Dirty Fighting:

 

--Word on the forums is that the Mortal Wound talent doesn't work as advertised; apparently the listed 25% chance for Vital Shot to tick twice is higher than the experimental values. Can you all look into this?

Edited October 28, 2013 by venomlash

[SomeJagoff]

For a dps buff,

 

-Do away with the tiered energy system (so constant 5-6 energy regen whether you have 100 energy or 1 energy).

-Lower the cooldown of backblast back to 9 secs or make blaster whip/flurry of bolts/thermal grenade/etc. reduce the cd of backblast by 0.5 secs (it's one of the hardest hitting abilities and compared to Maul, has A cooldown/compared to Smash has a longer cooldown.).

 

For a survivability buff,

-Make the "Med Screen" tree talent a base ability talent that will benefit both dps trees.

-Make disappearing act auto-remove all negative effects for the duration. (this would probably help DPS scoundrels the most, as they often get knocked right back out of stealth, but can't effectively heal to full like healer operatives. I said for the duration of the ability so that if a merc shoots you with a dart as you cloak, having it go off won't break stealth either.....which sometimes it doesn't anyway)

-Add "Scurry" type talent to Scrapper tree for instant heal.

Edited October 28, 2013 by SomeJagoff

[Cryowolf]

Scrapper suggestions - PvP: (Obviously not all of them together, this is just a list of possible ones.)

 

1. Remove the need for cover requirement on Sabotage Charge and Charged Burst upon choosing the Scoundrel AC.

 

2. In the skill Underdog, replace Tendon Blast with Sucker Punch.

 

3. Match up Flechette Round’s DoT with Back Blast’s CD, making either the DoT last 9 seconds or the CD on BB reduced to 6 second.

 

4. If not #3 then add a skill that lets Blaster Whip refresh the duration on Flechette Round.

 

5. Remove the speed boost to Sneak in the Fight or Flight skill and add it so that Sneak can now be used as an in combat stealth like Force Camouflage. Allow the use of Shoot First while under the effects of Sneak, but reword and rework K.O. so that the knockdown only works from natural stealth, not in combat stealth.

 

6. Rework Surprise Comeback to let it actually live up to its name. Have it reduce the CD on Pugnacity to 1 min and have it heal for 30% up front, not a HoT. Or honestly just change it back to the way it was. But change it please, the current one is not good.

 

7. Let Stopping Power also reduce the CD of Tendon Blast to 9 seconds.

 

8. Change Rolling Punches to include Blaster Whip and to increase Crit % instead of Alacrity.

 

9. Increase the dodge chance in Sneaky-Eyed to 7.5%/15% and raise it to Tier 2 in the tree.

 

10. Take Scar Tissue and put in Tier 1 of the Scrapper tree, or Tier 2 if you use #9.

Edited October 28, 2013 by Cryowolf

[hallucigenocide]

we need to be able to exit combat alot faster than we currently can.. without having to rely on dissapearing act.. the way it works now is you basically stay in combat til whatever target you tagged dies. there should be some kindo of timer that resets combat if neither of you attack eachother for a certain amount of time..

 

also survivability is non existant for both dps trees. sure we have alot of cc but as soon as we've opened up on someone it's bye bye scoundrel(unless terrible opponent)

 

and as mentioned by others.. shoot first is way too meh for all it's limitations.. if it does'nt crit you can pretty much guarantee that you'll lose against whoever you open up on.. especially since we're pretty crit starved to begin with and no one is going to sacrifice power and surge to crit more often.

 

so something similar to assassins reclessness/electric ambush would be really nice

[MeRRR]

Brainstorming fun!

 

I for one do not think we need to use Shoot First out of stealth, or more often for that matter. The front end burst design of the class is the reason why it is frustrating to play against. Or was...

 

The ability to provide burst damage while already engaged in a fight would be more useful. And I think you take away the feel of the class by using Shoot First to do this. It is an opener, a set up ability if you will. We should be using Backblast more. We should be able to reapply our Flechette Round more. Also, what happened to not being able to re-apply the FR buff to ourselves?

 

Quick Shot is terrible, its a filler ability while leveling. I am fine with it staying as that.

 

I have a fondness for the punching abilities.. but really, they are so dumb. Who in their right mind is going to run up on a Sith Lord and try to punch them? More scattergun bang, less punchy punchy. This is admittedly nit-picky

 

Do you know what we dont have? A finisher.. oh it sure would be nice to have an ability to use on targets below 30% like other melee dps. New ability! Call it Lucky Shot, let it do 10/20% more damage to targets with FR applied when talented. We are supposed to be going against the odds fighting these force users. Why wouldn't our killing blow be lucky? Could be Tactical, Precision, or Well Trained Shot for Ops.

 

The Sneak ability... the speed buff is kind of useless now with scamper. With taking away our leap immunity, we are going to be spending a lot more time rooted. LESS SLIPPERY I suggest a CC immunity while Sneak is active. And/or Sneak applies 2 stacks of a buff that allow an energy free scamper, consumed on use. SO VERY SLIPPERY. Picture Han running away from a battalion of Storm Troopers in the Death Star... should be our I NEED TO GET OUT OF HERE RIGHT NOW skill. Scamper fails to give us this with the amount of CC and slows available, and the large hit to our energy.

 

Defense Screen needs to do something better, anything would be an improvement. Make it a kiting tool, apply a slow to whoever breaks it. +2 SLIPPERY

 

Dodge is awesome, I like dodge, please don't nerf it.

 

Sabotage charge out of cover... If we are not supposed to use cover, this is already used in any good scrapper's rotation. Out of cover = more mobility, MORE SLIPPERY!

 

 

Healing.. reduce the rate Upper Hand gets granted from crits on HoTs. Forcing the use of more casted heals.

[killerbugz]

Thanks for doing this Eric,

 

A quick bump without changing a bunch would be to give dps the same upperhand cap as heals. so 3 upperhand max for all scoundrels.

[JMagee]

Brainstorming fun!

 

I for one do not think we need to use Shoot First out of stealth, or more often for that matter. The front end burst design of the class is the reason why it is frustrating to play against. Or was...

 

The ability to provide burst damage while already engaged in a fight would be more useful. And I think you take away the feel of the class by using Shoot First to do this. It is an opener, a set up ability if you will. We should be using Backblast more. We should be able to reapply our Flechette Round more. Also, what happened to not being able to re-apply the FR buff to ourselves?

 

While I don't necessarily disagree with you about using Shoot First out of Stealth, my desire to be able to use it out of stealth comes from its utility as another to get an UH.

 

RIght now (and this may be my total sucking at the class in a PvE environment, which is surely possible) I find myself in more situations where I'm either UH starved, or UH rich, and I find it difficult at times to catch back up to UH stacks.

 

I think the idea of having Sneak grant 1 UH stack when used may be a middle ground. I'm not personally advocating for OoS SF for the damage (which is very nice too) but because it's one of the 2 ways (on a single target Ops Boss) to generate an UH, which is critical for Sucker Punch. (well 3 if you consider Round Two, but to me that is more of a UH neutral result)

 

What about UH based changes that would seem to be complete opposites of one another, but I think would have similar outcomes?

 

a. Allowing, similar to Sawbones, Scrapper (and DF if it makes sense, no experience in that spec) to build up to 3 stacks of UH. That way we have a little bit more wiggle room to maintain stacks. Being off of the 10sec Round 2 CD and not being able to proc Flying Fists and the UH it grants can really throw a rotation and DPS into a lurch. Or maybe even make Flying Fists 100%. RNG is stupid sometimes.

 

b. And this one I don't really mean, but think it could help Scrapper, don't require an Upper Hand stack to use

Sucker Punch.

 

Just more brainstorming

Edited October 28, 2013 by JMagee

[player-klaus]

-cover-nerf? ok, but not in the dps-trees.

-3ticks more of AB/FR or reduce cd of BB/BS.

-double the amount shield probe can absorb.

-get rid of this "slippery/shady" and give flat AEDR/DR while stunned.

-reduce Sever Tendon CD

-give perk to make Sever Tendon AE/Conal

-dont change Orbital/Flyby

-HS/SF=autokrit + bring dmg in line with Maul

-AB/FR passive

-Flat energy reg

-Sneak needs a rework, since scamper makes it useless. (DR/ krit/ force camou/ unstoppable/ HtL/ instant heals)

-give Heal debuff

-change all alacrity perks in Krit/Power/Surge

-Toxin Scan off global and 0 energy

-aggro drop= break force-roots in both specs

-reliable instant heal (6-9kish)

-by far more energy reg while stealthed

-Surprise Surgery is crap! no healer specs into this. (make it viable by doubling/trippling the amount healed when shield probe wears off) then, you may consider moving it into dps trees.

 

whatever you do, eric/combat team, im done with my scouperatives. the 2.5 patchnotes are just insulting and discouraging. from the activity in this thread i see, that im not the only ex-scouperative addict who feels like this. this class is dps-wise just dead. best players gone, no incentive for new players to waste time with.

 

maybe i will be back for the "rise of the scouperatives" addon next year. gl.

[QuiveringPotato]

Scrapper suggestions - PvP: (Obviously not all of them together, this is just a list of possible ones.)

 

1. Remove the need for cover requirement on Sabotage Charge and Charged Burst upon choosing the Scoundrel AC.

 

2. In the skill Underdog, replace Tendon Blast with Sucker Punch.

 

3. Match up Flechette Round’s DoT with Back Blast’s CD, making either the DoT last 9 seconds or the CD on BB reduced to 6 second.

 

4. If not #3 then add a skill that lets Blaster Whip refresh the duration on Flechette Round.

 

5. Remove the speed boost to Sneak in the Fight or Flight skill and add it so that Sneak can now be used as an in combat stealth like Force Camouflage. Allow the use of Shoot First while under the effects of Sneak, but reword and rework K.O. so that the knockdown only works from natural stealth, not in combat stealth.

 

6. Rework Surprise Comeback to let it actually live up to its name. Have it reduce the CD on Pugnacity to 1 min and have it heal for 30% up front, not a HoT. Or honestly just change it back to the way it was. But change it please, the current one is not good.

 

7. Let Stopping Power also reduce the CD of Tendon Blast to 9 seconds.

 

8. Change Rolling Punches to include Blaster Whip and to increase Crit % instead of Alacrity.

 

9. Increase the dodge chance in Sneaky-Eyed to 7.5%/15% and raise it to Tier 2 in the tree.

 

10. Take Scar Tissue and put in Tier 1 of the Scrapper tree, or Tier 2 if you use #9.

 

I think these are all good/viable and would be welcome additions/changes!!!

[ekimmak]

Here's a few overpowered ideas:

 

Surprise Comeback: If you are leaped, pulled, or CC'd while in cover, the cooldown of escape and disappearing act is reset immediately.

 

Fight or Flight: For six seconds after using disappearing act, you cannot be broken from stealth by damage (Stealth Scan still breaks you out)

 

KO: Shoot First from stealth has a 50%/100% to stun the target for 2 seconds (Getting fed up with all the bosses that are immune to knockback robbing me of my opening security). Shoot First can additionally be used out of stealth, on targets at or under 15%/30% health.

 

Sucker Punch/Headshot: Bring these skills back.

 

Quick Shot: Give it back the old cannon sound effect.

Edited October 28, 2013 by ekimmak

[Yndras]

 

Sabotage charge out of cover... If we are not supposed to use cover, this is already used in any good scrapper's rotation. Out of cover = more mobility, MORE SLIPPERY!

 

 

I would prefer Sab charge to replace quickshot.

[Loc_n_lol]

Do you know what we dont have? A finisher.. oh it sure would be nice to have an ability to use on targets below 30% like other melee dps

This is something I've been thinking about before... how about hitting two birds with one stone : make a skill or a passive that makes shoot first usable out of stealth on targets below 30% health ?

[RougeBeaver]

I agree Sneak could use a rework as a sort of defensive CD. Surprise Comeback too.

 

I feel like Surrender is a much better candidate for a Force Camo-ish temporary stealth, as currently it doesn't have any added bonuses to Scrapper.

 

I don't think increasing the damage of Shoot First alone is the right approach, as that would just make us more hopelessly dependent on it. Sucker Punch/Back Blast/Sab Charge/Thermal Grenade all need to have their damage buffed and energy/UH costs re-thought for more substantial and sustained DPS. Maybe increase the radius and damage of Blaster Volley too. Most underused skill ever.

 

I liked the ideas about making Med Screen available to all Scoundrels and Shoot First being usable out of stealth on low health targets.

 

Also it's high time to un-nerf the cooldown on Back Blast too, pls. Also cover requirement for Sab Charge needs to be removed since they are nulling the effects of Cover.

Edited October 28, 2013 by RougeBeaver

[Falver]

Both DPS specs should get upperhand's timer extended. The fact that sentinels will have 24 seconds of merciless and scoundrels with 10 second upperhand is absurd.

[MeRRR]

While I don't necessarily disagree with you about using Shoot First out of Stealth, my desire to be able to use it out of stealth comes from its utility as another to get an UH.

 

RIght now (and this may be my total sucking at the class in a PvE environment, which is surely possible) I find myself in more situations where I'm either UH starved, or UH rich, and I find it difficult at times to catch back up to UH stacks.

 

I think the idea of having Sneak grant 1 UH stack when used may be a middle ground. I'm not personally advocating for OoS SF for the damage (which is very nice too) but because it's one of the 2 ways (on a single target Ops Boss) to generate an UH, which is critical for Sucker Punch. (well 3 if you consider Round Two, but to me that is more of a UH neutral result)

 

What about UH based changes that would seem to be complete opposites of one another, but I think would have similar outcomes?

 

a. Allowing, similar to Sawbones, Scrapper (and DF if it makes sense, no experience in that spec) to build up to 3 stacks of UH. That way we have a little bit more wiggle room to maintain stacks. Being off of the 10sec Round 2 CD and not being able to proc Flying Fists and the UH it grants can really throw a rotation and DPS into a lurch. Or maybe even make Flying Fists 100%. RNG is stupid sometimes.

 

b. And this one I don't really mean, but think it could help Scrapper, don't require an Upper Hand stack to use

Sucker Punch.

 

Just more brainstorming

 

I see where you are coming from with the UH stacks, but I think that should not be an issue if the cooldown of Backblast is reduced, and the energy management is re-worked. Basically you would cycle through abilities depending on the situation:

Shoot First

Blaster Whip

Sucker Punch + Another if its free

Sabotage Charge

FR+Backblast

Blaster Whip

Sucker Punch + Another if its free

Quick Shot

FR+Backblast

Blaster Whip

Sucker Punch + Another if free

Sabotage Charge

etc etc

Quick Shot/Sabotage Charge would be replaced with a hypothetical finisher when applicable.

 

This should keep UH up at all times.

 

 

This is something I've been thinking about before... how about hitting two birds with one stone : make a skill or a passive that makes shoot first usable out of stealth on targets below 30% health ?

 

 

The only problem I see with this is all the other classes that have a natural finisher have them as a ranged/melee attack or White Damage attacks. Using SF as a finisher gives us the advantage of the extra accuracy that comes from using force/tech attacks.

 

 

Both DPS specs should get upperhand's timer extended. The fact that sentinels will have 24 seconds of merciless and scoundrels with 10 second upperhand is absurd.

 

I agree that it does tend to run out too soon, especially if you are trying to switch targets.

[RAZIM]

Let scoundrels use the additional legacy unarmed attacks, while armed. The attacks could consume Upper Hand, like Sucker Punch. It'd make their brawling feel a bit more diverse.

 

Perhaps the attacks used in a certain rotation would advance a progressive/stacking "expose weakness" debuff system. Maybe it could allow the scoundrel to achieve some sort of "dazed" state on their target. A state which they could consume by using Shoot First again, while not in stealth.

 

The same type of system could work on an Operative with Hidden Strike. Though they'd need some blade attack equivalents to the legacy unarmed attacks.

Edited October 29, 2013 by RAZIM

[Epix]

Give Flechette round DoT a slow ~50% for duration of the DoT and/or healing debuff.

 

Rework Cool Head. Keeping current benefits but also adding functionality to finish CD on abilities such as: Disappearing Act, Dirty Kick, Dodge, Pugnacity. Must be talented into in Scrapper tree and adds a longer CD to prevent using more than once in a single round of 4v4.

[DynamiCtagez]

My suggestions are:

 

 

• Make Flechette Round a permanent effect (like the Jedi stances) and make it so, it automatically gets applied every time Shoot First/Backblast are used. This is a QoL change as well as an approach to fix energy problems in longer fights.
   
  
• Remove Legshot from the Underdog talent as it is 100% pointless and add Sucker Punch instead.
   
  
• Remove the Surprise Comeback talent and add some kind of defensive talent instead (DEFINITELY some kind of flat damage reduction CD like Blackout for Inifltration Shadows NOT just an increase to Shield Probe). This is probably the most important change.
   
  
• EITHER increase the critchance that the Element of Suprise talent gives OR make Sucker Punch profit from it as well.
   
  
• Change the Fight or Flight talent to some kind of rootbreak. Not as powerful as Hold the Line obviously, but some kind of rootbreak is needed.
   
  
• Give us a better PvP-setbonus 5 Energy is - frankly - a joke. My suggestion for a useful 4-piece setbonus would be to decrease the cooldown of one of the new defensive skills, if something like I suggested above gets added.
   
  
• Remove the cover requirement from Sabotage Charge, since cover will become pretty much useless for scoundrels anyways.
  

[Theagg]

CC immunity whilst in stealth (or at least a chance for it).

 

Certainly some form of CC immunity for a few seconds whilst exiting stealth, perhaps tied to Shoot First.

 

If we Scrappers are meant to be the slippery, shady class then rework, or add some abilities to truly try to reflect this in a PvP context. At the moment our current skill set and the way most warzones and arenas work means there is little chance for us to be that. Too many AoE's, too many massed fights at nodes result in us being bashed, knocked and tossed about in the open, rather than slipping around the melee in a shady, sneaky manner.

 

We can't compete with the outright DPS kings so make our DPS skills more 'devious'. Attacks that apply healing debuffs for example.

 

Slippery is a word that also implies we should be hard to catch. At the moment that certainly doesn't feel like the case. Whilst out of combat and out of stealth (when moving around) perhaps therefore we should receive a passive accuracy modifier on ourselves ( so others initial attack on us suffers a decent accuracy debuff) Making us hard to hit at first.

 

Or something like that..just something that reinforces the slippery nature of us.

[hallucigenocide]

CC immunity whilst in stealth (or at least a chance for it).

 

Certainly some form of CC immunity for a few seconds whilst exiting stealth, perhaps tied to Shoot First.

 

If we Scrappers are meant to be the slippery, shady class then rework, or add some abilities to truly try to reflect this in a PvP context. At the moment our current skill set and the way most warzones and arenas work means there is little chance for us to be that. Too many AoE's, too many massed fights at nodes result in us being bashed, knocked and tossed about in the open, rather than slipping around the melee in a shady, sneaky manner.

 

We can't compete with the outright DPS kings so make our DPS skills more 'devious'. Attacks that apply healing debuffs for example.

 

Slippery is a word that also implies we should be hard to catch. At the moment that certainly doesn't feel like the case. Whilst out of combat and out of stealth (when moving around) perhaps therefore we should receive a passive accuracy modifier on ourselves ( so others initial attack on us suffers a decent accuracy debuff) Making us hard to hit at first.

 

Or something like that..just something that reinforces the slippery nature of us.

 

yes please! also the whole lone wolf thing just is'nt working in the current available pvp enviroments

[QuiveringPotato]

yes please! also the whole lone wolf thing just is'nt working in the current available pvp enviroments

 

Especially in places like Novare and Ancient Hypergate, I'm just sort of "forced" to guard the objective every time. And while we're a good class to guard, I like to have some action sometimes. But, because of all the AoE's and crap everywhere, any slight little damage we take pulls us out of stealth, it's very difficult to actually be useful in these situations.