The underlying problem in SWTOR Arena - Tanks

[Megatfx]

The reason why Arena is failing and has to a certain extent already failed in SWTOR is simple. Tanks. In WoW Arena there is no tanking, they aren't a viable class to partner up with as they do not put up enough pressure nor have enough CC to fill the slot on a team. The problem lies with Guard. The difficulty of tanking in a PvP environment is what causes so few players to choose this role in SWTOR and only VERY few players can play the spec to it's maximum potential. You remove the ability to queue Arena as a tank and you increase the amount of people able to queue for Arena. There are tons of good DPS and healers who don't queue for Arena simply because "We don't have a good tank", or "Our tank is playing with another group of players". Good tanks end up being passed around like a Tijuana ****** in a Sailor bar.

 

How easy would most of you be able to queue for 4v4 Arena if you could just grab 2 other DPS and a Healer and queue? How much more viable would some classes/specs who weren't considered viable before now be? Guard is somply killing PvP in this game, you saw it back when 8v8's where around when usually the best team, had the best tank. Tanks control Arena in this game, a lot of the issues with OP Healing comes from the fact that they have Guard and are more effective than Sorc and Merc healers while guarded. Not saying they still wouldn't be MORE effective, but the differences between the 3 AC Healing classes wouldn't be as large as all 3 have adequate cooldowns to survive long enough if played correctly and are properly supported by the team.

 

WoW Arena would not have been possible, nor as an important part of PvP in that game if there was a reliance on TANKS. Very few times in WoW History was there ever a time that tanking was useful in Arena and that was 100% caused by bugs, proc stacking, etc that have long been fixed. By making it necessary to have a tank in Arena you are gutting the essence of how 4v4 should be. 4v4 should be as simple as saying "Oh HAI we have 4 people online, lets queue for Arena." By removing the option and the ability to queue as a Tank in Arena then blacking out the talent "Guard" you have increased the playability for Arena by 10 fold. Teams aren't pigeonholed by the tank that they have, finding a healer is significantly easier than finding a tank.

 

The only thing that Seperates WoW Arena from SWTOR Arena is Guard. You want Arena to be enjoyed by more than 1% of the population? Remove Tanks in Arena, then games don't ever go to the acid unless in very rare 2v2 or 1v1 situations, you'll see teams of every class and spec flooding Arenas. More teams will queue.

 

Guard perpetuates the problems with Sorc and Merc healers because both teams live long enough for the Sorc/Merc to eventually run out of cooldowns and force/heat to keep himself and his teammates alive. Wheras operative healers do not. I have been in many solo q arenas where my team with the Sorc or Merc healer wins against the Operative healer team.

 

This is my petition to save SWTOR Arena, you can only do it by removing Tanks. This isn't PvE, we don't need the big bad tank to hold aggro on elite raid bosses, we're 4 people trying to kill the other 4 people. That is what is being lost in translation in SWTOR Arena.

Edited October 27, 2013 by Megatfx

[Zardoyi]

I Dis-agree.

 

The Problem is the lack of Utility in a tank class. By Utility I mean this , 1 Class to my knowledge gets a healing Debuff .

 

The Sent/ Mard 15 sec - 20% healing debuff. Tanks need a purpose and the arena they have none , they also have almost no purpose ( Imo full tank spec ) outside of every WZ minus Huttball just for carries.

 

If they added more Utility HIGH in the tank tree, Heal Debuffs/ Heal Intercepts tanks would be the bain of OP's/ Scounds and any healing class ( with in range ).

 

Guards on healers and more Utility would make a none Dps tank a needed item. It's sad however that the people would Dev the PVP for SW-ToR lack any potential to balance classes.

 

Edit " I do however agree with the Tank not needing to be in the Que ....DPS +Heals = 4 should be a green light for a ranked WZ".

Edited October 27, 2013 by Zardoyi

[alexsamma]

I would never queue on my sage/sorc healer if I knew that I was going up against three burst dps classes with no one to protect me, most dps are morons who don't understand the concept of peeling for a healer and sages/sorcs melt to three burst dps.

 

Remove tanks and you might as well delete the other two healing ACs, because without a guard the casters don't stand a chance against three burst dps.

 

Edit: This is assuming that the dps have actual grey matter, against horrible players anything works.

Edited October 27, 2013 by alexsamma

[djcetra]

Change the title of the thread to why you fail at arena and it makes some sense.

 

Tired of threads about why this and that is failing, just leave the game so the rest of our ears can stop bleeding.

 

Thanks.

[Laforet]

I agree completely with the OP. Guard has no place in PvP.

 

But if you remove tanks from arenas you better make them 3v3. Double deeps and healer. Triple deeps and healer just wont work and well see dual healer meta. Cross healing is ok for 8v8 objective but will just destroy arenas.

[Xeraz]

Guard should be an active cooldown. It should require activation and have a duration.

[RenegadeYayap]

I Dis-agree.

 

The Problem is the lack of Utility in a tank class. By Utility I mean this , 1 Class to my knowledge gets a healing Debuff .

 

The Sent/ Mard 15 sec - 20% healing debuff.

 

Snipers/Gunslingers also get shatter shot/ flourish shot. It would appear they gave the healing debuffs to pure dps classes.

[Sangrar]

wall of text Wow arenas, WoW, Wow

 

This isn't WoW, tanks are not the problem, and you can't expect this game to completely imitate everything WoW does.

[JJthesith]

So Smash hitting everyone for 9-11k is not the problem. Op healers healing without energy issues is not the problem. Somehow tank are the problem.... sounds legit.

[Laforet]

Guard should be an active cooldown. It should require activation and have a duration.

 

The new final fantasy is going to make guard a mini shield wall.

 

Guard has a cooldown and its a flat 25% damage reduction on a target player.

 

Remove taunts from PvP and make guard a mini shield wall on a 45 sec CD, 10 sec duration.

 

Fixed.

 

Inb4 tanks crying.

 

25% during 10sec in 45cd will be retardly strong but will only be exploited by people who actually see whats happening in the game. The way it should be.

Edited October 28, 2013 by Laforet

[JJthesith]

As I said in another place.... Do you know how detrimental hitting a tank and the person they are guarding with smash is to them? Or how madness can kill tanks pretty effectively. Learn to fight teams with tanks in them and quit crying cause you're bad.

[Zoom_VI]

So basically the OP thinks tanks should be less useful than a madness sin, because they make things hard to kill?

 

If you don't like having to actually be good to kill stuff you can go elsewhere

[TheSupaCoopa]

Duran'del Here:

As a tank, I disagree that Tanks should not be allowed to play in Arenas. You said the reason yourself; There are not many good tanks. In order to get better, you MUST play more. In order to be a better PvP tank, you must PvP as a tank. Unless you throw Paper Airplane of Logic out the window.

[Raansu]

Guard is pretty brain dead atm and definitely needs to be reworked...but to say that tanks should have zero viability in pvp is silly. I'd never play tanks again if that were the case and I like playing tank in pvp. But I do feel guard needs to be changed.

[tynt]

Guard is fine, it is op/scro healing that is out of line.

[JP_Legatus]

Guard should be an active cooldown. It should require activation and have a duration.

 

It does require activation. Switching your guard costs you a global.

[SOULCASTER]

LOL @ this thread

[SOULCASTER]

change the title of the thread to why you fail at arena and it makes some sense.

 

Tired of threads about why this and that is failing, just leave the game so the rest of our ears can stop bleeding.

 

Thanks.

 

qfe /5char

Edited October 28, 2013 by SOULCASTER

[olcraft]

We need tanks and healers in arena. Melee heavy teams are vulnerable to multiple smashers. Without tanks, they can really wipe out melee classes pretty quickly.

[metalfenix]

Scoundrel healer without guard = dead meat unless the opponent don't grow a brain and don't focus the healer with at least 2 dps.

[Racter]

Guard should be an active cooldown. It should require activation and have a duration.

 

This would be great.

[JP_Legatus]

The reason why Arena is failing and has to a certain extent already failed in SWTOR is simple. Tanks. In WoW Arena there is no tanking, they aren't a viable class to partner up with as they do not put up enough pressure nor have enough CC to fill the slot on a team. The problem lies with Guard. The difficulty of tanking in a PvP environment is what causes so few players to choose this role in SWTOR and only VERY few players can play the spec to it's maximum potential. You remove the ability to queue Arena as a tank and you increase the amount of people able to queue for Arena. There are tons of good DPS and healers who don't queue for Arena simply because "We don't have a good tank", or "Our tank is playing with another group of players". Good tanks end up being passed around like a Tijuana ****** in a Sailor bar.

 

How easy would most of you be able to queue for 4v4 Arena if you could just grab 2 other DPS and a Healer and queue? How much more viable would some classes/specs who weren't considered viable before now be? Guard is somply killing PvP in this game, you saw it back when 8v8's where around when usually the best team, had the best tank. Tanks control Arena in this game, a lot of the issues with OP Healing comes from the fact that they have Guard and are more effective than Sorc and Merc healers while guarded. Not saying they still wouldn't be MORE effective, but the differences between the 3 AC Healing classes wouldn't be as large as all 3 have adequate cooldowns to survive long enough if played correctly and are properly supported by the team.

 

WoW Arena would not have been possible, nor as an important part of PvP in that game if there was a reliance on TANKS. Very few times in WoW History was there ever a time that tanking was useful in Arena and that was 100% caused by bugs, proc stacking, etc that have long been fixed. By making it necessary to have a tank in Arena you are gutting the essence of how 4v4 should be. 4v4 should be as simple as saying "Oh HAI we have 4 people online, lets queue for Arena." By removing the option and the ability to queue as a Tank in Arena then blacking out the talent "Guard" you have increased the playability for Arena by 10 fold. Teams aren't pigeonholed by the tank that they have, finding a healer is significantly easier than finding a tank.

 

The only thing that Seperates WoW Arena from SWTOR Arena is Guard. You want Arena to be enjoyed by more than 1% of the population? Remove Tanks in Arena, then games don't ever go to the acid unless in very rare 2v2 or 1v1 situations, you'll see teams of every class and spec flooding Arenas. More teams will queue.

 

Guard perpetuates the problems with Sorc and Merc healers because both teams live long enough for the Sorc/Merc to eventually run out of cooldowns and force/heat to keep himself and his teammates alive. Wheras operative healers do not. I have been in many solo q arenas where my team with the Sorc or Merc healer wins against the Operative healer team.

 

This is my petition to save SWTOR Arena, you can only do it by removing Tanks. This isn't PvE, we don't need the big bad tank to hold aggro on elite raid bosses, we're 4 people trying to kill the other 4 people. That is what is being lost in translation in SWTOR Arena.

 

Sins can autowin by abusing acid and you're complaining about tanks.

No, we can come back to this topic later when the game isn't broken and you aren't immediately removing one of the three specs from 3 different classes' arena trees.

Edited October 28, 2013 by JP_Legatus

[JP_Legatus]

This would be great.

 

Again, guard does use a global cooldown.

[JP_Legatus]

The new final fantasy is going to make guard a mini shield wall.

 

Guard has a cooldown and its a flat 25% damage reduction on a target player.

 

Remove taunts from PvP and make guard a mini shield wall on a 45 sec CD, 10 sec duration.

 

Fixed.

 

Inb4 tanks crying.

 

25% during 10sec in 45cd will be retardly strong but will only be exploited by people who actually see whats happening in the game. The way it should be.

 

25% with an uptime of less than 1/4th?

Yeah, your team will bring a tank for that.

Edited October 28, 2013 by JP_Legatus

[Glower]

So Smash hitting everyone for 9-11k is not the problem. Op healers healing without energy issues is not the problem. Somehow tank are the problem.... sounds legit.

 

^this