Level: 65, Gear: 204 pvp, Discipline: Serenity Shadow, Companion: Akk Dog, influence lvl 30, Healing Role Mission: Star Fortress Heroic Was able to solo, though took a lot of resting between fights to wait for cooldowns to be up. Had to rearrange utilities just for the expected fights, which felt good. This particular content felt more challenging, which I appreciate, but at the same time all the other easier content (planet heroics, star fortress solo) has become more tedious and grindy. A balance would be good. Also wish there were better payout for micromanaging companion abilities, might make the other content feel more challenging.

Like most of the changes so far. Something for balance/madness shadows/assassins would be refreshing.

If we go down this road then why not increase range of all force abilities along with your modification of raze, so that you do not need to be in melee at all ? And why not allow death field to automatically apply both discharge and crushing darkness on all targets ? And the most practical and easiest solution to all the problems you mention: why not just make madness assassins identical to madness sorcerers ? I do not think CD/Mind crush is supposed to be applied on multiple targets, not they way they designed it. I get the sense that they have strict targets on ST and AOE damage each spec must have, so I am pretty sure they are not going to make madness assassin a pure (over the top) AOE spec. And why not make the same changes for madness sorcerers, whats different for them ?

Yep, but there is no variety and boring animations as you said. Yes i feel the force technique conversion idea + whirling blow would be good. Maybe allow spinning strike to automatically grant 3 stacks as well, so that with crush spirit, balance shadows can be very effective finishers.

Actually, I don't mind your vision of balance. I don't mind being a sustained damage dealer with less single target pressure. What I cannot stand is holding a double bladed saber and doing nothing with it. Somehow that bothers me a lot. I want to be a shadow, I want to use the saber and the force (not exclusively one or the other) and I want to feel like a controller on the battlefield. So if we were to do that, as you said, it is important to decrease the ramp up time, and I hope the double bladed saber attacks (whirling blow/ spinning strike, if not shadow strike) have something to do with it.

It is because he really liked that spec (and so did I). It is not as if any suggestions and arguments here will be taken word to word by the combat team, they have their own ideas about the spec (as they should), so there is no reason we should not be dramatic, drastic and nostalgic in our suggestions I agree with the dot damage reduction part, they should probably be removed. It hits pure dot classes like balance pretty hard. But I actually prefer the pyro merc way of doing it (instead of a passive 15 % DR), because it requires some input on the part of the player. Good pyro mercs are real hard to duel against as balance, mainly because of this (combined with the fact that they have heavy armor), mind crush barely tickles them. So yeah I would like them removed, but if they have to include it, it must be active in some form, so that there is some window where dots could still hit hard.

I think it definitely meets their expectations, but the optimist that I am, I think they are going consider feedback and fix it. Even inspite of our disagreements, all of us think balance/madness needs fixing in terms of engagement and gameplay. So I am sure they will get to it, not now, but in the next expansion. Which could be a year from now. Well there is only so long one can remain optimistic.... Which is why they need to interact more with the community.

Mind ward is pretty decent, but it could use some improvements. And lambaste of course is pathetic.

This is a good point. Adds to the argument that we need more single target pressure, and not over reliance on dots.

Relax, it is just a difference of opinion. Though I do feel that you are a bit too stubborn on the aspect of shadow strike, and I get that. I would be too, if I was forced to use an ability I do not like. I for one do not really think that you will be forced to use shadow strike in balance/madness, irrespective of our opinions . But can you atleast agree that we need more melee options to make use of the double bladed lightsaber we wield ?

Phasewalk is an awesome escape ability, so is sever force + force spped combo. If you feel you cannot escape, try using these abilities more often. Similarly for staying on target, sever force + force speed, more than enough. But I think with the current state of utility (exfiltrate, and so many root cleanses), an instant force lift and an additional snare wouldn't hurt.

A double bladed lighsaber is a bit excessive for a pure force user.

Actually the combat team might agree with you on this one (though I never understood why they included it for KC if they felt it was clunky in the first place). As to the other two points, how can we be sure it does nothing ? Logically speaking, if something would be included it would be because it does something to enhance the gameplay. Whether it does something or not is an issue to discuss once we have a blueprint of what is expected.

I agree with this. I am repulsed by over the top dependence on stealth for the infiltration tree. I used to like the spec before 2.0: not as much as balance, but decently. Now I just don't like both our dps trees. The saving grace is that I do have fun with a 0/23/23 hybrid, which is kinda fun once you get used to it. Yeah and I don't get the shadow strike hate. Even before they implement something (hell, even before they intend to implement something), how can one say it does not synergize with the tree ? What if it increases damage based on number of dots, or increases crit chance of dots or some such ? Yes, and I agree that the shadow strike implementation for tank tree needs to be better.

Though I would like Shadow strike, I would be fine if they went instead with any melee ability (preferably spinning strike proc and something really good with whirling blow, not the current lambaste talent point). I want synergy with melee/stealth/resilience, because that's what distinguishes shadow from a sage. i like the force conversion idea, and granting all stacks when exiting stealth would be a nice way to get synergy with stealth, for e.g.

This is very true, however, in pvp its slightly different. More important to consider whether you are going to be able to pull of MS or not, for eg. Its not about rotations and filling in GCDs, but more situation awareness and being able to pull off what you are supposed to pull off.

The point is not the end result, which is of course the same for both centering and combat focus. But it is what you do to get there. Centering is a core sentinel mechanic, something that screams sentinel (and the first ability you train at 10, along with zealous strike and zen ?). After all, we play games because we like to feel we are part of a role, and so appeal of the gameplay is also as important as the end result. I was not comparing pacify to shadow strike, they are very different. Simply making a point that all core abilities are usable even in the shared tree. And again on your point in lethality, that talent might have been poorly implemented, but thats not the point. having a heal proc (that is decently useful) distinguishes lethality operative from the lethality sniper. Players might not use it much, but I am fine with that. This is where we seem to have a disagreement As to balance sages: distrubance hits pretty hard, has an increased crit chance, and with talent points it could increase force regen (i.e. synergy with core class ability). Mental alacrity increases movement speed, and not to mention that range is an important distinguishing feature of sages compared to shadows, and manipulating range is very cruical for a balance sage. If we are to just look at end results and accomplishments, I believe that that whatever a balance shadow can accomplish, a sage can also. Where is a balance shadow unique and more "shadowy" then a sage ? If we had to go by your argument, why not simply increase the range of Force abiitlies to 30m and allow Tk throw to proc Force strike ? I would prefer that to the current spec, which is neither here nor there.

That's the point. It does nothing for the spec as whole, and we want it to do something. That is subjective. If you look at the swtor leaderboards (pvp ranked) , you will see that the the shadow/assasin section has a picture of- you guessed it, shadow using shadow strike. The fact that they chose that ability to represent the class means that atleast some people at bioware like that animation. This is what we want, damage and synergy. No one wants to just put a talent that reduces the cost of shadow strike in the tree. It has to do something with dots, for eg. As from the point earlier, there is no contradiction if implemented right. And as to the work to implement, thats what BW gets paid for. Yes the positional requirement is because the payoff is supposed to be good. Again, that depends on what talent point they intend to include. Not really. Screwing over sages would mean, for eg, getting rid of force in balance, or sever force, etc. Nothing like that is being suggested here.

I agree, basic idea of the shared trees is the same. But how they achieve their goals can be very different. Focus sentinel and Focus guardian have the same concept: aoe burst. But how they go about doing it is different in subtle ways. Focus sentinels get buffs to GBtF, a core sentinel ability. Similarly, the centering mechanism is crucial for burst phases of focus sentinels, as it is with the other sentinel trees. There are other minor buffs, like the one to rebuke and twin saber throw, not to mention that other fantastic sentinel abilities like camouflauge and pacify still remain usable by focus sentinels. Similary for the lethality tree, poison damage and cull are the main mechanisms, but operatives could pull of 4 culls in a row, and that is serious burst. They also get the ability to use a heal on proc (heal being a core operative ability). So balance shadow, like balance sage is a dot spec, and I am sure there will not be anyone contradicting that. But the abilities that aid in achieving dot damage should come from the AC abilities. I posted a lot of times that shadow strike could apply a juyo-zen style critical chance buff on dots, for eg, or that whirling blow should allow spreading of dots from one target to the other, etc. These are by no means the only solutions, of course.

This I would be fine with. As I said before, project is already useful in pvp, and upheaval is something players can spec into if required. So additional talent points for project in balance tree are probably needless. Putting some talent points on shadow strike in would make the tree a lot more shadow-like imo. As for executes, over time I have come to realise that sub 30% talents are useful, even in pvp. But I do not want a 15% dot damage buff, its just boring. How about an increase to critical chance of spinning strike ? (like the ones vigilance guards have before 2.0, I miss it). Or maybe increase melee damage by 15/20 % on targets on sub 30 % health ? Yeah I also think their policy on class changes needs a rethink. The changes to balance shadow in 2.0 were definitely not minimalistic (as they seem to have thought, considering their developer update on consular for 2.0) . There is no point in sticking to that policy if you only enforce it partially.

Exactly the point. It needs some synergy, which I admit, might not be an easy thing to do keeping optimal PVE rotations etc in mind. As to the argument on core AC abilities and their involvement in a shared tree, have a look at some points made in this post in another thread (if you have the patience that is ) TLDR; Shared trees need to bring in more from the core class compared to pure AC trees, agreed, but they need to also have some core AC components as well, so that the gameplay of the two shared trees is similar, but at the same time has a distinct feel.

I like the ideas in this thread. I like Majspuffen's idea of making battle readiness an important defensive cooldown for balance shadows. I also agree with PapaRodin that with Force conversion, Lambaste (with some tweaks) could be a good way to build stacks quickly, albeit at a higher force cost. As to ability bloat, I don't think I have a problem with more abilities personally. Having said that, I realise that it is a concern for many people, and the main reason for oversimplification of the spec in 2.0, so its important not to trivialize it. So I see two possible solutions: 1. Choice between shadow strike and project: I know PapaRodin and many others prefer project over shadow strike, while me and Majspuffen and some others prefer to have both, in particular shadow strike . I am a big believer in giving options to players on how to play a given spec. There might be a rotation that achieves optimal DPS in PVE, but there should be slight variants that might be suboptimal, but encourage alternate playstyles. In particular, all specs should be able to use all core class abilities. I know this is real hard to achieve, but that is what I would like in an ideal specialization. This was possible earlier when infiltration tactics was at the bottom of the tree, so all specs had access to shadow strike if required. The problem is that balance shadows cannot even use shadow strike-a core class ability. Project can still be used, and is valuable burst in pvp when slowed or immobilized at 10m, in particular with force potency and upheaval. But there is no way shadow strike is suitable in any scenario I can think of. This is the problem I have - there should be a way for balance shadows to use shadow strike. So if it comes to a choice between SS and project for talent points, I would pick SS, not because I don't want project, but because I can already use project. I agree that SS is harder to pull off, but that's the point, we want to pull it off since we trained for it 2. Have a proc that reduces force cost of both Shadow strike and project, and is consumed by either ? Maybe make twin disciplines trigger from both SS and project, and increase all damage by 3% instead ? I don't know, just throwing around ideas.

Agreed, and assassins also have an amazing escape in phasewalk. Probably the ability most true to its class from 2.0, phasewalk is as amazing as it gets in pvp (its usefulness in pve is not that much though). Nothing is more like an assassin than sneaking in behind enemy lines, assassinating your target, and serenely phasewalking back. Interestingly the only time I feel like an assassin when playing madness is when I get deep in enemy lines, dot everyone like crazy and phasewalk back to apply some ranged pressure. This actually does not accomplish much, lethality can do all that and much more from range, but this is one move that feels true to the class. A Leap would actually go against the idea of assasin/shadow for me. Something like a short term stealth like Force camo (maybe a 2sec or 1sec duration) would accomplish gap closing, gap creating and survival, and would feel like a shadow/assassin ability, imo.

I agree. I like the crit boost/zen reference as it would do slightly more than just burst, it will give a small amount of pro-active survivability via focussed insight. While the ability to refresh dots is nice, I usually do not have an issue maintaining dots in a pvp setting (where there is higher room for error in dot clipping), especially since the dots are low cooldown and force efficient. If there had to be something with whirling blow in the balance tree, I would allow whirling blow to spread force breach from one target to all (maybe a slight reduction on force cost ?) . Depending on the number of targets it could be more force efficient, and definitely gcd efficient and allows balance to build up aoe pressure very quickly. But personally I would like to move whirling blow to infiltration, as that is the tree with absolutely no aoe pressure. Balance already has a powerful aoe nuke in FiB, and doesn't need more imo. It depends on what the developers vision is for each of the trees, I guess.

This is true, that idea ends up changing too much. The idea of scaling damage with number of dots is nice. Another idea is for shadow strike to apply a very short term crit buff on dots (like zen for watchman sentinels), since balance shadows do not have any crit boosts whatsoever in the tree.