Warzones/Arena please let the player decide!

[DarthMaulUK]

Eric did a sterling job of not actually answering the question.

 

We KNOW they are different. But its COMPLETELY different to 8v8, therefore warrants it's own Q-system. This game is supposed to be about CHOICE, so where is it?

 

I can't stand the idea of Arenas, using a 2005 formula from another MMO, and many others are voicing their own concerns and by not allowing players a choice, you are now creating warzones that start with unbalanced sides 3v4 for example as people drop, and they will.

 

You will only drive away the few subs you have left if this doesn't change and not by 2.5, but the next update.

[Gomla]

You do realise that if they made it so the queue's were seperate and you had to choose arena's seperately

 

Of course we realise that .... that is EXCACTLY what we are asking for.

[Andryah]

The objectives ARE in fact, a major thing that is changed.

 

Not really. Unranked instanced PvP is pretty much the same regardless in the context of adhoc grouping. Sure the teams size and tactics change.. but the objective remains the same.. to pwn the other team and make them all take dirt naps.

 

You can pretend it's different of course. But it really isn't.

 

I get that some people want large team PvP, NOT small team PvP. You can still do that.... they have not taken the control away from you.. they just have not given you that control through the queue (yet).

[TheNahash]

This is like forcing PvEers to join the Flashpoint queue to do an Operation Eric...they're "similar", but they are NOT the same freaking type. This is a horrible decision. I don't want to duel...I want BIGGER PvP, not smaller...

 

^This exactly.

And if they did that in PVE too, then queues would be much faster and people wouldn't be complaining about being in the group finder for too long. Or, to put it in Eric's terms, people could jump into action "ASAP".

[Twin]

That's your problem, not mine.

 

They have demonstrated since launch that they gather data, and DO make changes based on that data when it indicates something other then corner case problems with a very small number of players.

 

Yeah! Take Ilum for example, their data told them there was a problem and they changed! And Warzone queues are fine, there is no such thing as a single WZ popping repeatedly, all coinsidence - no need for a change there!

 

If you're gonna change something based on data, it's good if that data reflects reality in some way first.

[TechTheHic]

Not really. Unranked instanced PvP is pretty much the same regardless in the context of adhoc grouping. Sure the teams size and tactics change.. but the objective remains the same.. to pwn the other team and make them all take dirt naps.

 

You can pretend it's different of course. But it really isn't.

 

I get that some people want large team PvP, NOT small team PvP. You can still do that.... they have not taken the control away from you.. they just have not given you that control through the queue (yet).

 

I don't think you get it. Its not just team size and map. 8 man warzones had objectives (ironic, no?) that you had to capture and defend. Arenas do not have that. They are just a team deathmatch.

 

How is having objectives vs not having them not a change in objectives? It's the equivalent of me telling you that your PvE mission of just clicking a box to activate something is the same as a boss fight.

[Kontraz]

Actually, it's not that great of an analogy. Why? Because instanced PvP is PvP.

 

 

Instanced PvE is PvE.

 

Only the map and the team size is different, not the fundamental objectives.

 

Wait... you mean that team deathmatch has the same fundamental objectives as huttball? Blast, I've been playing wrong all this time!

 

honestly the fundamental objectives of flashpoints compared to operations are much closer than those of objective warzones and deathmatch

 

 

You guys talk like it's cast in concrete and can never be adjusted based on how players actually access and use the content.

 

I don't know anybody who PvPs that thinks bolster in ranked warzones is (was?) a good thing, yet bioware did nothing about it - unless you include taking out that aspect of the game.

[FriendReferral]

This is like forcing PvEers to join the Flashpoint queue to do an Operation Eric...they're "similar", but they are NOT the same freaking type. This is a horrible decision. I don't want to duel...I want BIGGER PvP, not smaller...

QFT

 

BioWare, this was a very bad decision. Very bad. Giving PvP'ers less options. Taking, taking and taking. You're not helping the PvP community at all.

[Andryah]

Yeah! Take Ilum for example, their data told them there was a problem and they changed! And Warzone queues are fine, there is no such thing as a single WZ popping repeatedly, all coinsidence - no need for a change there!

 

If you're gonna change something based on data, it's good if that data reflects reality in some way first.

 

There is more evidence that their data drives the right changes to the game rather then the wrong changes.

 

I get that any change they make is by definition invalid if you don't agree with it.. regardless what their data says.

[Joesixxpack]

Not really. Unranked instanced PvP is pretty much the same regardless in the context of adhoc grouping. Sure the teams size and tactics change.. but the objective remains the same.. to pwn the other team and make them all take dirt naps.

 

You can pretend it's different of course. But it really isn't.

 

I get that some people want large team PvP, NOT small team PvP. You can still do that.... they have not taken the control away from you.. they just have not given you that control through the queue (yet).

 

What an utterly wrong statement. FPs and Ops bear greater resemblance to each other than obj-based vs. TDM PVP.

 

Accusing people of pretending? Haha now you're just trolling, poorly.

[iamthehoyden]

4x4 deathmatch arenas are different from 8v8 objective-based warzones. They are so obviously two types that to state differently is mindboggling ridiculous. You guys really have lost your minds, haven't you?

[TUXs]

Actually, it's not that great of an analogy. Why? Because instanced PvP is PvP. Only the map and the team size is different, not the fundamental objectives.

Um...have you done either Arenas or Warzones? Arenas are team death match, Warzones have objectives...the "fundamental objectives" are entirely different.

[FriendReferral]

Um...have you done either Arenas or Warzones? Arenas are team death match, Warzones have objectives...the "fundamental objectives" are entirely different.

This.

 

[Kontraz]

There is more evidence that their data drives the right changes to the game rather then the wrong changes.

 

I get that any change they make is by definition invalid if you don't agree with it.. regardless what their data says.

 

Please provide this evidence. Their number of subscribers (or lackthereof) is the only evidence I know of, and I read it as implying the opposite.

 

I get that anything said against Bioware is by definition invalid since you don't agree with it... regardless of what data says

[Devrius]

Not really. Unranked instanced PvP is pretty much the same regardless in the context of adhoc grouping. Sure the teams size and tactics change.. but the objective remains the same.. to pwn the other team and make them all take dirt naps.

 

You can pretend it's different of course. But it really isn't.

 

I get that some people want large team PvP, NOT small team PvP. You can still do that.... they have not taken the control away from you.. they just have not given you that control through the queue (yet).

 

 

The great thing about the old WZs was that "dirt naps" was not the point, but only one way of achieving the end goal of winning. Hell, I have seen many people with your mindset lose their team a fairly easy WZ by insisting on "pwning the other team" and getting one more extra kill...

[TheNahash]

You guys talk like it's cast in concrete and can never be adjusted based on how players actually access and use the content.

 

It took them almost a year to add Arenas. Pre-season has lasted more than a year. They haven't added any new Maps since Hypergates and that was what? December 2012?

And I'm not even going to touch class balance.

PVP is obviously not a priority. And that's fine if they see that PVP is not what people do most in the game. But to say that just because we voice our disagreement already (which we also did before the patch went live, btw) it's "too soon", I'm sorry, but it doesn't make sense.

[captpickles]

I am annoyed I am even looking at this thread. PvP just grew up a little bit, if you cant fight in the arena you dont belong in pvp.

 

GREAT! enjoy watching me wait until match start... then disconnect in protest. leaving you down a man..

[Andryah]

4x4 deathmatch arenas are different from 8v8 objective-based warzones. They are so obviously two types that to state differently is mindboggling ridiculous. You guys really have lost your minds, haven't you?

 

OIC.. so in Arena.. you kill other players.. but in WZ you don't?

 

Come on guys.. the point of PvP is to kill other players. Instanced PvP is designed to force opposing players into close quarters to fight. 90% of all tactics in a PvP instance revolve around that. Stop pretending that is not the case. WZs have objectives in them to motivate confrontation for PvP. Arena's lack objectives and just cut to the core theme of PvP.. to kill each other. It's a nuance, not a major difference.. unless you are somehow holding objectives peacefully and not killing each other. It's Player on Player combat.

 

FPs and Ops are both group PvE. They have fundamentally different objectives and rewards. If they didn't nobody would play OPs ever.

[TechTheHic]

Well; you probably can't convince Bioware any more than you can convince their apologists on the forums. Might as well just quit the match when you see an arena. That will either make them realize how much people want to be able to just do the 8v8, or they will more likely make another mistake with a quitter debuff because they are so determined to not give people what they want in the name of metrics.

[TUXs]

Not really. Unranked instanced PvP is pretty much the same regardless in the context of adhoc grouping. Sure the teams size and tactics change.. but the objective remains the same.. to pwn the other team and make them all take dirt naps.

LOL! Spoken like someone who has never actually tried to be effective in a WZ. How did that "dirt nap" strategy work for you in Huttball?

[MaximusRex]

Hey discbox!

 

You raise a good question and it is one I can answer. There are two reasons it appears as it does currently in the queue. First, what you have to keep in mind is that Arenas are a new type of Warzone. Similar to how Huttball is a type of Warzone and Voidstar is a type. Technically each different Warzone currently in the game is its own type, with a single map of that type. Warzone Arenas are the "type" 4v4 deathmatch with 3 different maps. That is why they are in the Warzone queue.

 

Secondly...

 

 

Zoom_VI is on the right path here. As we continue to separate queues, we will continue to increase queue times. Our goal is to make sure you can get into the PvP action ASAP!

 

Hope that answers your question.

 

-eric

 

Sorry Eric,

 

8 Man Warzones and 4 Man arenas are as different as 8 man Ops and 4 man Flashpoints, and you don't force people who want to queue for ops into a flashpoint.

 

If the PvP community was so small that it is too risky to have two totally different types of PvP have their own queues, then you should have never introduced arenas and diluted the queues. Or at the very least you should have done a lot more in the patch to fix class balance, have bolster close the gear gap further, and fix player matching.

[Andryah]

It took them almost a year to add Arenas. Pre-season has lasted more than a year. They haven't added any new Maps since Hypergates and that was what? December 2012?

And I'm not even going to touch class balance.

PVP is obviously not a priority. And that's fine if they see that PVP is not what people do most in the game. But to say that just because we voice our disagreement already (which we also did before the patch went live, btw) it's "too soon", I'm sorry, but it doesn't make sense.

 

You guys really are bitter about PvP in SWTOR IMO. Which frankly impairs your objectivity.

 

I'm not arguing how much of a priority PvP is or is-not. I am simply stating that they make changes to game content based on telemetry+analysis+player_feedback. Timeliness of change and whether any given player agrees with a change is beside the point.

[TechTheHic]

OIC.. so in Arena.. you kill other players.. but in WZ you don't? .

 

Actually; this is true. In arenas you are there to simply kill other players. In warzones that is just a side effect as you are actually there to win the match first and foremost.

 

You mean, you do class story quests to kill NPCs, but in operations you don't? See how that works?

[Devrius]

OIC.. so in Arena.. you kill other players.. but in WZ you don't?

 

Come on guys.. the point of PvP is to kill other players. Instanced PvP is designed to force opposing players into close quarters to fight. 90% of all tactics in a PvP instance revolve around that. Stop pretending that is not the case. WZs have objectives in them to motivate confrontation for PvP. Arena's lack objectives and just cut to the core theme of PvP.. to kill each other. It's a nuance, not a major difference.. unless you are somehow holding objectives peacefully and not killing each other. It's Player on Player combat.

 

FPs and Ops are both group PvE. They have fundamentally different objectives and rewards. If they didn't nobody would play OPs ever.

 

Please tell me you don't join PvP queue, if you don't know by now that objectives are more importnat then kills in WZs you don't belong there...

[Joesixxpack]

OIC.. so in Arena.. you kill other players.. but in WZ you don't?

 

Come on guys.. the point of PvP is to kill other players. Instanced PvP is designed to force opposing players into close quarters to fight. 90% of all tactics in a PvP instance revolve around that. Stop pretending that is not the case. WZs have objectives in them to motivate confrontation for PvP. Arena's lack objectives and just cut to the core theme of PvP.. to kill each other. It's a nuance, not a major difference.. unless you are somehow holding objectives peacefully and not killing each other. It's Player on Player combat.

 

FPs and Ops are both group PvE. They have fundamentally different objectives and rewards. If they didn't nobody would play OPs ever.

 

It's apparent that you haven't a clue of what you're talking about, yet are now trying to convince a number of people that do have a clue, that they don't. Hardly endearing or constructive to the conversation.