Do I really Need VOIP for HM operations

[wainot-keel]

I wouldn't take any pug to a HM Op without voice. Not unless I knew them and knew that they were extremely experienced, and even then I'd hesitate. I probably wouldn't take anyone to a level 55 SM Op either without voice chat. Ops are, more than anything else, a test of coordination and execution. The first part of that is extremely difficult to achieve if you don't have an open line of communication.

 

I've done boss 1 and 2 of TfB without voice in a pug, but for OP9 was not even a question whether was necessary or not. We got in and then discussed the different approaches, what we were used to do with our guilds (only 3 were from the same guild). Everybody there were people who cleared tfb hm (checked their achievements). Even so, took a few tries until we down the boss.

TBH, without voice because of whatever, I would have given only 1 attempt at op9 out of politeness.

 

 

Is this really necessary or are people just being elitist's.

wow... in what sense using voice chat is "elitist" ? Serious question

 

They're not exactly a rare comodity. At all. There are several of them out there. All free.

Because of mad skillz to use them ? My 70 year old mom uses one. And she can't play pac-man for crying out loud.

 

Again, how using voice chat is "elitist" ?

 

I can't imagine Bio-Ware would put operations in their game that would require a feature that they don't even include on their game.

 

Why reinvent the wheel ?

 

There are a bunch of good options, well tested, with years of being out there. BW would be wasting time and money developing this. Really wasting money. And a lot of people would keep using the other programs they know...

[Simmerr]

Ok, so the general consensus is : You really do need VOIP in order to be effective in HM op's.

 

Let me present a hypothetical and tough question.

 

You are the Guild Master of a decent sized and decently skilled guild and you have some who would like to join and become part of the raiding team but, theirs one problem. He is hearing impaired (basically deaf). What do you do? I just couldn't imagine telling some kid he couldn't join our guild because he has a disability ( I would feel like a total A-Hole). Has anybody had to deal with this kind of situation???

 

Ever see a disabled person on a highly competitive sports team?

 

In all reality, unless he is god tier at gaming and anticipation, someone that might be slightly worse skill wise but that can hear, react, and respond on the fly is going to be more of an asset to the team. It's science, auditory cues travel to our brain almost twice as fast, [1] thus allowing us to react faster. [2]

 

It sucks, but this is why the advantage lies with able bodied persons.

 

This is also why you shouldn't ever raid competitively with the sound off.

 

And, obviously, if you're only doing faceroll operations or easy tasks, this data means next to nothing

 

[1] http://biae.clemson.edu/bpc/bp/Lab/110/reaction.htm

[2] http://www.colorado.edu/eeb/courses/1230jbasey/abstracts%202005/5.htm

[FridgeLM]

I think you need an update to your imagination unit

 

Seriously, LOTRO online (the first mmo I really played) had it built in, and it made any group content infinitely more enjoyable. There are three things, any one of which could be stopping BW from integrating voice: licensing cost (if there is no free version), development cost (since the engine itself obviously didn't have it built-in), and engine limitations. I'm going for the latter -- the swtor engine is so clunky I keep a second computer next to my gaming computer just to do voice and web surfing.

 

Wow implemented a voip feature and it was the biggest joke ever, caused a lot of technical problems and bugs, and nobody used it.

 

That's the reason they won't implement it. It's not worth the effort.

[eartharioch]

Wow implemented a voip feature and it was the biggest joke ever, caused a lot of technical problems and bugs, and nobody used it.

 

That's the reason they won't implement it. It's not worth the effort.

 

So one game (LOTRO) implemented it well, but WoW (which I've never played) failed, so BW won't implement it? I'm confused. Most people on these forums complain that BW won't do what WoW did "right:, not that BW won't do what WoW did wrong.

[Askesis]

Ok, so the general consensus is : You really do need VOIP in order to be effective in HM op's.

 

Let me present a hypothetical and tough question.

 

You are the Guild Master of a decent sized and decently skilled guild and you have some who would like to join and become part of the raiding team but, theirs one problem. He is hearing impaired (basically deaf). What do you do? I just couldn't imagine telling some kid he couldn't join our guild because he has a disability ( I would feel like a total A-Hole). Has anybody had to deal with this kind of situation???

I've never dealt with these. I remember reading about a pretty competitive raiding guild that had a BLIND member.

 

It's not impossible to raid without VOIP. However, it is more difficult. Depending on the player's role, it can be more of less important (and different fights are of more importance than others. It can certainly be done, but there are more hurdles that come along with that. It would be up to you/your guild to decide if you want to take on that task.

 

Keep in mind that it's also much harder to PUG without VOIP than it is to run with an established raid group. With a group that runs together all the time and knows what they should be doing at any given time, then you have more leeway with someone not being on VOIP. I, however, would never pug a HM without it, because you can't be sure that everybody is competent (and not every person in the PUG may do the encounter the same way).

[mikebevo]

You don't need a callout to click.

 

 

1st: after second set goes out 6/8 out of group will havve it.

2nd: After jump and set goes out

3rd: Same as first.

You may not, and your group may not, I wouldn't and my group does not, but go do it with a pug group or even a group that does not do it often. You have to call out click even on SM or someone is going to be standing around with stacks of Nanities with all the pillars down and you are going to miss knocking kephess down once in a while.

 

Like I have written in this thread more than once, no voice is not needed for someone that knows their group and knows the fight with their group, but I wouldn't take someone without, nor would I go with someone without it in HM and above EC, TfB or S&V that I did not know.

 

I have taken people not use to raiding into TfB SM that died every fight because they did not listen or follow directions and they even clicked the pillar the moment they had nanities, but who cares it is SM and you can just push your way through it. However, HM and NiM do require the group to act as a team. HM you can have some mistakes, NiM many of the fights require everyone to be perfect or very close to it. So again, I will do sm without voice, I will only do hm and above if the everyone can hear the leader, unless I know the person and they know how this group is going to do everything.

[AlrikFassbauer]

Is it so that - in the end - Operations are made so that without any voice chat they are simply not manageable ? ( I Expect this to be so in other MMOS as well.)

 

That's an indirect feature ... I mean, if voice chat was exclusively commercially available, then this would be a good way of advertising - forcing people to buy voice chat programs.

 

But still - people are forced to use voice chat programs now anyway - and if one doesn't want to, then this person won't never ever be allowed into Operations ?

 

Like I have written in this thread more than once, no voice is not needed for someone that knows their group and knows the fight with their group, but I wouldn't take someone without, nor would I go with someone without it in HM and above EC, TfB or S&V that I did not know.

 

 

 

[Cynism]Sounds to me like :

 

"If you want to join our exclusive club, then you have to have voice chat.

 

And if you don't want to ... Well, there's still Story Mode For The Masses ... Just don't expect yourself to become something special EVAR without voice chat."[/Cynism]

[Synavix]

Voice chat simply makes things more organized, and as a result they become necessary. This is essentially the same argument about whether or not WoW guilds should require raiders to use X Boss Mods. Boss mods have become such a commonplace and give raiders who use them such an advantage, raid developers started balancing mechanics around knowing precise timers in order to still give a similar challenge. While the bosses are still very doable without voice chat, not using them creates extra stress on the rest of your team.

 

A lot of people are using fights like OpIX or Kephess as examples, but you could simplify it even more. Use HM Cartel Warlords as an example. A very strong strategy that a lot of groups used originally was leaving T'chuck up for last, and swapping tanks back and forth after one ran out of cooldowns. Without voice chat, this requires some sort of in-game chat communication at the very minimal, not just between the two tanks, but also the healers who need to be prepared to switch targets. This can cause a delay, a loss in tank rotational DPS, and a delay in healer preparedness. Obviously taunt mechanics are very basic and could easily be done without voice chat, but when you consider a fight like pre-nerf DG which required maximum DPS from everyone including tanks, and also required spot-on healing, you can see why people require it. It's not really any different from why Vent is required for many serious PvP premade guilds, the level of coordination it brings (even just from being able to listen to one person) is astounding.

[NoFishing]

And I'll probably get flamed for saying this, but if he can't hack it because he's hearing impaired, than he's not going to be part of your raid team. It's not different than if he was just a bad.

 

Personally I agree with you. It wouldn't be right to exclude someone from a raid team simply because of a physical impediment. But if someone can't perform their job or execute on mechanics, the raid leader has a responsibility to replace them, regardless of the reason. There are 7-15 other people in the group to consider.

[NoFishing]

And to be honest, I suppose that a deaf player will have a higher visual awareness to compensate for the missing aural sense.

 

You don't even have to be deaf for this to be true. I find in many cases when the game has decided to stop playing audio or voice cues for mechanics that my improved focus on the visuals more than makes up for it. So much so that on new content, I will occasionally turn off the game sound to reduce sensory overload. But it really depends on the fight whether I consider the audio cues to be vital or not.

[psandak]

I agree with the consensus here...

 

Is it necessary to do operations? No.

Can a group do upper level operations without it? Yes

Does it make the content that much easier? Yes

 

In my days playing EQ1 in a hardcore guild we did not use voice chat; and we were a top end guild (frequent server first, occasional world first). In hindsight though we probably could have taken down that content 25% to 50% faster if we had the ability to instantly communicate (back in those days TS was available but sketchy at best).

 

Without voice chat, when something goes wrong, all a group can do is hope that the entire group has the ability to recognize the problem and compensate. On the other hand, with voice chat, something going wrong can be easily communicated and therefore corrected more quickly resulting in a better chance of success. Granted that does come with the unintended consequence of a segment of players who depend on others for their situational awareness (you know the ones: you always have to practically yell at them to move or do something). But the overall result is better coordination and an increased chance of success.

[Darth_Haderach]

Voice chat requirement is a myth and I personally get annoyed when I hear people insisting it's a must. Voice chat is not required whatsoever for any of the current Hard Mode content. With my guild we've cleared and farmed everything and it's one of our concepts to -not- use voice chat.

 

For the record, with another guild we've also cleared all World of Warcraft content back in the day until Cataclysm arrived without voice chat.

[jeniyagyu]

I don't believe it is 'required' to do them. Most of the time when I raid with my guild, we are just talking smack to each other (All in good fun of course ), there are a few call outs (Tanks mostly), but I believe it is completely doable without it. There are some instances that it would be nice to have it (sometimes you hit the wrong key or a CC breaks) but I've cleared HM's with people that haven't had a voice chat and everything went good.

 

It all depends on the person/group I suppose. Some groups/people prefer you have them and some don't mind if you don't, it is all about finding a group that will fit well with how you play.

[chuixupu]

LIke I said, you can do it without voice. You can eat food without silverware and plates, but if you have silverware in the drawer, why not use it? Yes you can be that weird person that just wants to eat everything with his hands, but I won't invite you to my dinner table.

[Solloby]

While I understand the need for VOIP, I don't understand why SWTOR players don't have one standard VOIP program.

 

In WoW, everyone used Vent, at least on my server. Vent was the program that every player installed, so when you pugged someone into a group, unless they were an mmo newbie who had never voice chatted before, they already have Vent installed and just needed the server details. Every single guild I was in used Vent, even the non-raiding ones. Every single raid or achievement pug I pugged into used Vent, asked for Vent details, or asked if anyone had a Vent we could use.

 

Nobody used anything else, it made everything simple and easy because you didn't have to install new software every time you pugged into something. I don't really get why even on a single server, SWTOR has so many different VOIP programs in use?

[chuixupu]

While I understand the need for VOIP, I don't understand why SWTOR players don't have one standard VOIP program.

 

In WoW, everyone used Vent, at least on my server. Vent was the program that every player installed, so when you pugged someone into a group, unless they were an mmo newbie who had never voice chatted before, they already have Vent installed and just needed the server details. Every single guild I was in used Vent, even the non-raiding ones. Every single raid or achievement pug I pugged into used Vent, asked for Vent details, or asked if anyone had a Vent we could use.

 

How long ago did you play?

 

I've played WoW on Proudmoore since 2006, back in the old days it was just TS or Vent, but things have changed with more options becoming popular. It's the same there now, some people use Vent, some people use TS3, some people use Mumble, so I have all 3 on my comp.

[mikebevo]

[Cynism]Sounds to me like :

 

"If you want to join our exclusive club, then you have to have voice chat.

 

And if you don't want to ... Well, there's still Story Mode For The Masses ... Just don't expect yourself to become something special EVAR without voice chat."[/Cynism]

May sound like it to you, but you do not have a clue about me nor do I care enough about anything about you to explain to you how you are wrong.

 

Will say one thing, how can something be exclusive when it is open to anyone.

[Alduinsm]

While I understand the need for VOIP, I don't understand why SWTOR players don't have one standard VOIP program.

 

In WoW, everyone used Vent, at least on my server. Vent was the program that every player installed, so when you pugged someone into a group, unless they were an mmo newbie who had never voice chatted before, they already have Vent installed and just needed the server details. Every single guild I was in used Vent, even the non-raiding ones. Every single raid or achievement pug I pugged into used Vent, asked for Vent details, or asked if anyone had a Vent we could use.

 

Nobody used anything else, it made everything simple and easy because you didn't have to install new software every time you pugged into something. I don't really get why even on a single server, SWTOR has so many different VOIP programs in use?

 

Install and set up all 3 Vent,Mumble and TS3. Don't bother with any pug group that require anything else beside these 3.

[Aberd]

I've raided in Multiple MMO's over the years ranging from 72 man raids to 8 man raids for the past 14 years. NO, VOIP is not needed for raids. Situational awareness and knowing your roll and character are more important.

 

That being said, VOIP does make raiding easier. It is more of a security blanket for raiders and raid leaders. But honestly, with everything telegraphed in BIG RED LETTERS and ground targets everywhere these days you would need to be in a coma to miss stuff.

 

And yet even experienced players miss those BIG RED LETTERS. Presently there is no way to relocate where on the screen those warnings are posted or how they appear, or for how long. Typical display time for those warning is only 1-2 seconds or there is some other big red graphic on screen. If your focus for that second is at your feet, cast bar (checking CD's), or on the party's health bars (healers tend to get tunnel vision when there is a lot of healing going on), those messages are easily missed unless you're using a 10" monitor. That is were using VOIP is worth the effort, because now with 7 or 15 other pair of eyes looking for the warning and speaking out, when something comes up, you and anyone else who might have missed the message is aware of it.

 

In short, although ops can technically be done without VOIP, the coordination and situational awareness it brings to the group is priceless.

[NoFishing]

While I understand the need for VOIP, I don't understand why SWTOR players don't have one standard VOIP program.

 

In WoW, everyone used Vent, at least on my server.

 

Because swtor is a new game, with new guilds. When WoW was being established, there was effectively only one option which everybody used. It's popularity today can be attributed solely to inertia.

 

But when ToR launched, there was no entrenched user base. Thus many people tried other VOIP programs, found them to be up to the task, and adopted them for their guilds.

 

And without wanting to this into a VOIP war, the others do several things better than Ventrilo. For example I find that mumble has better sound quality, and although it doesn't have the ability to adjust the volume of individual users, it also doesn't require that. It also has a better overlay that can be positioned anywhere on the screen, not just in fixed spots. Plus it doesn't require administrator access for the PTT key to work. And both mumble and teamspeak have better integration of text channels, making things like URL links easier to share.

[Arenatah]

Because swtor is a new game, with new guilds. When WoW was being established, there was effectively only one option which everybody used. It's popularity today can be attributed solely to inertia.

 

But when ToR launched, there was no entrenched user base. Thus many people tried other VOIP programs, found them to be up to the task, and adopted them for their guilds.

 

And without wanting to this into a VOIP war, the others do several things better than Ventrilo. For example I find that mumble has better sound quality, and although it doesn't have the ability to adjust the volume of individual users, it also doesn't require that. It also has a better overlay that can be positioned anywhere on the screen, not just in fixed spots. Plus it doesn't require administrator access for the PTT key to work. And both mumble and teamspeak have better integration of text channels, making things like URL links easier to share.

 

I personally like mumble because the latency of it is much lower. Instead of having yourself be heard a second later (when it might be too late), voice on mumble goes much faster (I don't know exactly how or why it works that way, I'm just happy that it does).

 

But yeah, I have the big 3 VOIP programs (Vent, Mumble, TS3) all installed for pugs just in case.

Some guilds use raidcall, but in my experience the amount of people who use it is very low compared to the other 3, so I don't bother with it.

[HBCentaurion]

Is this really necessary or are people just being elitist's. I can't imagine Bio-Ware would put operations in their game that would require a feature that they don't even include on their game.

 

I don't think it's elitist at all. SM operations are made for PUGs where you can brute force your way through the content if you have the gear even though the group is full of derps. HM / NiM introduces new mechanics that require a higher level of coordination than what is needed for SM. Yes, it is possible to do HM without VOIP if you are geared and know the mechanics, but not NiM. Besides NiM is not for the "general public" - it's aimed towards guilds that wants a challenge.

[ekimmak]

I've been able to run through PUGs without voice chat. I won't deny that it would be helpful, though. Do I need all three of the main voice chat programs, or can I just pick the one that my guild uses?

[DarknessInLight]

Every time I see people looking to build a HM Op's groups (S&V or TFB) they always say stuff like.

 

TS3 is required

 

Must have Mumble

 

Need to have Ventrilo

 

Is this really necessary or are people just being elitist's. I can't imagine Bio-Ware would put operations in their game that would require a feature that they don't even include on their game.

 

The truth is that there ARE HM operations that you do need some kind of coordination for, if for nothing more than to make sure that everyone is on the same page in terms of mechanics.

 

The three Operations that, IMO, should require use of a VOIP app are:

 

- Explosive Conflict SM, HM or NIM

- Scum and Villainy SM, HM or NIM

- TFB SM, HM, and NIM

 

Now, some of you are going to ask, "Why SM?" The reason for that is simple. Some players do not understand that these 3 Operations are MECHANICS HEAVY and are not simple "tank and spank" boss encounters. This is part of the reason that I think Bioware made a huge mistake by putting EC in with the Classic Operations weekly, because some players can barely handle Eternity Vault and Karagga's Palace(I've seen fully geared 55's fail horribly in these Ops, when many of us ran successfully in Tionese gear(EV and KP) in the beginning) and they jump into ECHM expecting the same type of Raid as they seen in the previously mentioned EV and KPHM raids.

 

VOIP makes things easier in that people can explain fights to those who may not know about it. Trust me when I say that typing the fights into your Ops chat for these 3 raids is long, tedious and troublesome. It is so much easier to use VOIP to do that. Most of those failed runs were because people did not know the fights and did not bother to learn them. It is NOT Elitist to require you to understand mechanics and know the fights because youre not playing by yourself. Guess what? It's an MMO. You have to learn to play with others and your team is depending on you to play your role properly, and that's part of the reason that people require use of a VOIP app.

 

My advice to you is to download the following apps so that you are prepared for any situations(if you dont have a MIC, you can at least listen to what is being said):

 

- Ventrilo

- Teamspeak RC3

- Mumble

- RaidCall

[DarknessInLight]

I don't think it's elitist at all. SM operations are made for PUGs where you can brute force your way through the content if you have the gear even though the group is full of derps.

 

You cant just "brute force" your way through ECSM. Sorry, but it's true. You still need to know the boss fights.