Smash IS overpowered

[foxmob]

considering the compositions that i have seen running arenas, that doesnt seem to be true. heck, people are running smash spec in tank stance just for the added dps lol.

 

also, scrapper/sin hits arent AoE.

 

I'm not sure you understood what I said. two scrappers or two sins could open on you at the same time and bring you down just as quickly as two smashers.

 

the next point was that two smashers could do it do you just for being next to someone else (which is a necessity in a lot of WZs). however, if you have 2 teammates in an arena that close to each other...I think they're probably not very good.

 

I'm not saying run scrapper/deception in arenas. lol

Edited September 18, 2013 by foxmob

[danielswann]

considering that 2 snipers or 2 mercs can take you from full health too dead in 1 combo, from range, i think smash is fine.

[Savej]

So, i am in fully min/maxed gear and getting killed by 2 coordinated smashers before i can get up from the push. no way that is OP...

 

i am so exciting for the 2.4 balance changes

 

Show us a combat log parse? Normally 2 smashers can't do 30k to 1 target in 2-3 seconds but I suppose it is possible (other classes can too, with luck).

Edited September 18, 2013 by Savej

[Zunayson]

considering the compositions that i have seen running arenas, that doesnt seem to be true. heck, people are running smash spec in tank stance just for the added dps lol.

 

also, scrapper/sin hits arent AoE.

 

most of smash's damage is restricted to shi cho form. According to the talent, enrage is restricted to shi cho. It's ambiguous as to whether or not crush builds shockwave; it should be rephrased better.

 

So I doubt tankstance gives that much extra damage.

[maverickmatt]

most of smash's damage is restricted to shi cho form. According to the talent, enrage is restricted to shi cho. It's ambiguous as to whether or not crush builds shockwave; it should be rephrased better.

 

So I doubt tankstance gives that much extra damage.

 

It actually does. You can only build Singularity through Exhaustion/Crush, so the smashes are ~18 seconds apart, but they still deal 5-6k. The idea is to run smash in tank gear and soresu form.

[windogie]

It isn't that smash is overpowered at this point. It is that the other classes have been used for batting practice by bioware and the effects of this is showing up more because of arenas and us looking at classes more because of the class questions. Before the class questions started those who had issues made threads and hoped to air out their problems in the community with no hope of bioware listening. Now that bioware has said they will answer questions about the classes we start looking more at the problems each class has which comes down to the fact, agent and sith warrior just have less problems than the other classes. I do not believe in the need to nerf anything because it only creates problems like this where there are certain classes that do better than others due to no fault of the player. Bioware keeps hiding behind their broken system of balance that no longer works because of nerfs. Best example is pyro spec bioware keeps giving ammo/heat reduction to abilities and taking away damage, this will not work after you have already nerfed that damage already. You can't keep using the same balance standards after nerfing abilities and other parts of the class without giving equal exchange which is what they try to do by increasing one thing and decreasing another it simply doesn't work. In their system if your damage is nerfed if you ever get nerfed again your damage will be severely hurt and you are very unlikely to get truly buffed because bioware will just circle around it trying to fix things about it by using equal exchange but will never make it any better because they have altered the original set up they are trying to use to fix it. So is smash overpowered no, the other classes are just underpowered. (Excluding operative healers,snipers and other smashers.)

[foxmob]

It isn't that smash is overpowered at this point. It is that the other classes have been used for batting practice by bioware and the effects of this is showing up more because of arenas and us looking at classes more because of the class questions. Before the class questions started those who had issues made threads and hoped to air out their problems in the community with no hope of bioware listening. Now that bioware has said they will answer questions about the classes we start looking more at the problems each class has which comes down to the fact, agent and sith warrior just have less problems than the other classes. I do not believe in the need to nerf anything because it only creates problems like this where there are certain classes that do better than others due to no fault of the player. Bioware keeps hiding behind their broken system of balance that no longer works because of nerfs. Best example is pyro spec bioware keeps giving ammo/heat reduction to abilities and taking away damage, this will not work after you have already nerfed that damage already. You can't keep using the same balance standards after nerfing abilities and other parts of the class without giving equal exchange which is what they try to do by increasing one thing and decreasing another it simply doesn't work. In their system if your damage is nerfed if you ever get nerfed again your damage will be severely hurt and you are very unlikely to get truly buffed because bioware will just circle around it trying to fix things about it by using equal exchange but will never make it any better because they have altered the original set up they are trying to use to fix it. So is smash overpowered no, the other classes are just underpowered. (Excluding operative healers,snipers and other smashers.)

 

I have to take issue with the bold text. this is a philosophical difference that I (and many others) have with the devs: focus/rage is supposed to be the best burst spec. that's what the devs said. that's what it is. I get it. don't you think it's excessive that they're ALSO the best aoe spec? now you're bursting multiple targets. and it's not like this is a frieghter flyby in which the "targets" have an opportunity to avoid the dmg. it's coming. you cannot CC someone the duration that his stacks buffs last. nor can you run away from an instant. so yes, there is something of a legitimate beef to the very design of the spec.

 

I realize it's the survivability to dps/burst ratio that everyone's most concerned about. but that is endlessly debatable. what I've never understood is how the single easiest (to execute) hard hitting attack in the game for a SINGLE TARGET also is an aoe. why the hell is all that crit/buff'd dmg attached to the classes one (ok. one of two.) aoe's?

[waterboytkd]

I have to take issue with the bold text. this is a philosophical difference that I (and many others) have with the devs: focus/rage is supposed to be the best burst spec. that's what the devs said. that's what it is. I get it. don't you think it's excessive that they're ALSO the best aoe spec?

 

Didn't they make mention of that in the 3 questions thing? That with Maras and Sents, the three specs were supposed to be sustained dps, burst dps, and AoE dps. I thought they said they were going to revisit the output on Smash spec, it just wasn't coming any time soon.

 

Even now, don't Carnage/Combat do the best single target burst damage? It's just not on demand, like with Smash/Focus? Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that was the case.

[Seengularity]

I have to take issue with the bold text. this is a philosophical difference that I (and many others) have with the devs: focus/rage is supposed to be the best burst spec. that's what the devs said. that's what it is. I get it. don't you think it's excessive that they're ALSO the best aoe spec? now you're bursting multiple targets. and it's not like this is a frieghter flyby in which the "targets" have an opportunity to avoid the dmg. it's coming. you cannot CC someone the duration that his stacks buffs last. nor can you run away from an instant. so yes, there is something of a legitimate beef to the very design of the spec.

 

I realize it's the survivability to dps/burst ratio that everyone's most concerned about. but that is endlessly debatable. what I've never understood is how the single easiest (to execute) hard hitting attack in the game for a SINGLE TARGET also is an aoe. why the hell is all that crit/buff'd dmg attached to the classes one (ok. one of two.) aoe's?

 

Fox,

 

Rage is the best burst spec exactly because of that (the potential of the AOE), and that's intended. If we talk about highest single target burst / Fastest & highest burst, rage does not even rank 5th. Big difference. Working as intended.

 

what I've never understood is how the single easiest (to execute) hard hitting attack in the game for a SINGLE TARGET also is an aoe.

 

Are you saying that smash is the highest hitting single ability in the game? ....

 

 

It is not

 

 

Do you also mean to say that (and me assuming you main a BH AC) you cannot avoid a smash fairly often with HO?...

Edited September 19, 2013 by Seengularity

[Savej]

I have to take issue with the bold text. this is a philosophical difference that I (and many others) have with the devs: focus/rage is supposed to be the best burst spec. that's what the devs said. that's what it is. I get it. don't you think it's excessive that they're ALSO the best aoe spec? now you're bursting multiple targets. and it's not like this is a frieghter flyby in which the "targets" have an opportunity to avoid the dmg. it's coming. you cannot CC someone the duration that his stacks buffs last. nor can you run away from an instant. so yes, there is something of a legitimate beef to the very design of the spec.

 

I realize it's the survivability to dps/burst ratio that everyone's most concerned about. but that is endlessly debatable. what I've never understood is how the single easiest (to execute) hard hitting attack in the game for a SINGLE TARGET also is an aoe. why the hell is all that crit/buff'd dmg attached to the classes one (ok. one of two.) aoe's?

 

Spilled milk. I would never have designed a spec around that either (like stealth/burst tanks, stealth heals, and1-button viable dps - lots of kooky calls made at game design time). But without significantly changing the class it's not going to change. The devs did mention that they are looking to bump up the aoe of other specs in the q/a. Bear in mind that there are classes/specs outside of melee that can do as much pvp damage as smashers (often doing more in the games I play).

 

Easiest major attack? No, almost nothing is easier than maul. Granted it doesn't crit as consistently or quite as hard as smash (normally), but it's much more spammable and much harder to see coming (and taunt). After the first one, smashes have a bit of a windup, actually, compared to most attacks and one of the key windup tools can be cleansed. Smashing really isn't as easy-mode as a lot of the trolls and hate mongers in these threads like to spam - I know plenty of otherwise decent players that just die a lot when they play it. Against bad teams/players any class can be devastating in its own way.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Savej

[Raansu]

 

Even now, don't Carnage/Combat do the best single target burst damage? It's just not on demand, like with Smash/Focus? Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that was the case.

 

Technically yes, but since 2.0 they made it all proc based so its nowhere near as consistent was it was prior to 2.0 with the guaranteed blade storm proc thus making the burst of focus more consistent because there are no procs and it auto crits.

[MysticGryph]

Lol smash has already been nerfed enough!

[foxmob]

Fox,

 

Rage is the best burst spec exactly because of that (the potential of the AOE), and that's intended. If we talk about highest single target burst / Fastest & highest burst, rage does not even rank 5th. Big difference. Working as intended.

 

 

 

Are you saying that smash is the highest hitting single ability in the game? ....

 

 

It is not

 

 

Do you also mean to say that (and me assuming you main a BH AC) you cannot avoid a smash fairly often with HO?...

 

easiest, guaranteed consistent big hit. all you have to buff, leap, instant smash. so no. I did not say it was the hardest hitting single target.

 

all the ranged classes require los, which is easy to break. combat is easily avoided. watchmen is...well...there are a few problems, but let's just say ramp up. the stealth classes require stealth/back, are highly dependent on rng, and they're incredibly fragile by comparison (not that the latter has anything to do with the burst claim). 7-9k instants every...12s(?), 5-6k screams, 7k finisher...yeah, their single target burst is just fine. aoe not necessary for viability or burst. arguably necessary because of all the healing going out overall (doubt that will be a 4v4 issue).

 

personally, I liked that choke built stacks. I just think it's a better secondary method than crush because it's clear to the rest of the world that you're building stacks as long as you're choking, so there's a chance to interrupt it/prevent full smashes. only healing sages really cleanse it anyway, and that's relatively rare with all the focus/rage in every frickin wz cuz no other dps spec can compare for either ac.

 

edit: what is ho/htl going to do to avoid an instant attack? it just prevents a root/punt and increases speed a bit. a mando/merc can punt to temporarily avoid the smash, but the buff for smash is a large enough window to get back in 10m for another leap/smash or, more often, just run up into range and smash. but no. htl/ho definitely doesn't counter smash. it's a great abil and gets bh/troops out of plenty of trouble. no complaints about it.

 

e2: should prolly also note that I only know smash as a jugg. sent plays the other 2 specs. so experience with the dual wielders is just in facing them. for w/e that's worth.

Edited September 20, 2013 by foxmob