What's with the lack of interest with the PTS?

[HunchaBoes]

Here's my issue with the PTS.. it echos all the way back to Selective Beta Testing during the game's over-hyped months in 2010/2011.

 

Everyone was chomping at the bit to get into beta testing. Not just weekend testing but normal beta testing. Everyone that I knew that got invitations said that initially, for the first few months, they did all the feedback they could to help fix things involved in the game, but the developers never responded, and the new builds never showed much in the way of correcting the more reported bugs.

 

If I am going to commit my time on the PTS, i'd like to think that it would be going towards making the game better with the new content. Since there is very little reward for doing anything on there, there is no incentive to test their game. It forces them to do it themselves and actually play the game they develop.

[branmakmuffin]

First off motives for my post is not just about having more people for new operations, it's about highlighting the fact the public test server isn't serving it's purpose as a whole with such a low population for all content and I'm just wondering where is everybody? This is meant to be a AAA game is it not yet I've seen bigger pops on test servers for small indie games, this is unacceptable especially on a quite large patch with such a variety on content and I just want to know why?

That's a question for BWEA, not your fellow players.

 

If you like to play on the PTS, do so. If the pop is too low to make it worth your while, then stop. "Problem" solved.

[spectreclees]

The difference is Blizzard makes changes during testing based directly on testing feedback from players, sometimes inside the same day the problem is discovered.

 

Bioware, undeserved or not, does not have that reputation.

 

That's my point exactly.

[TheNahash]

That's a question for BWEA, not your fellow players.

 

If you like to play on the PTS, do so. If the pop is too low to make it worth your while, then stop. "Problem" solved.

 

Although I do agree that this is a question for Bioware, I don't understand why they don't at least try giving players more incentives.

 

The PTS helps Bioware catch bugs and test new content without actually spending anything beyond the normal cost of development. People do it for free.

Giving players something, even if that something is small like the titles that have been removed, would help.

 

But I don't think Bioware is the only one to blame here.

 

Players haven't exactly been "helping", which is supposed to be the reason they go to the PTS, with posts like "When are Tankassins going to get some love?" when it's clearly stated that the PTS forum is only for feedback about the content that's being tested and not random issues that people have with their classes. In essence, people are treating the PTS subforum like any other part of this forum: a place to demand things from Bioware.

 

Bioware, on the other hand, has given people the impression that they don't even try to fix the issues that are being reported. And I don't blame them. I'm guessing that the Naked PVP Bolster bug had been reported hundreds of times when 2.0 was being tested but it still, somehow, made it to the live servers. That was not a small bug, like a glitching armor piece - that was kind of important.

 

All in all, I think both players and Bioware are to blame for the current state of the PTS.

If the devs are satisfied with the current number of people testing the content, then this whole thread is pointless.

If they aren't (and I'm pretty confident they aren't), then giving people more incentives other than being the first to see the new content and learn the tactics in Operations, as well as actually fixing critical bugs - that have been reported over and over again - before a patch is released on the live servers would probably go a long way.

Edited September 7, 2013 by TheNahash

[Grayseven]

First off motives for my post is not just about having more people for new operations, it's about highlighting the fact the public test server isn't serving it's purpose as a whole with such a low population for all content and I'm just wondering where is everybody? This is meant to be a AAA game is it not yet I've seen bigger pops on test servers for small indie games, this is unacceptable especially on a quite large patch with such a variety on content and I just want to know why?

 

The public test server isn't serving its purpose because players feel (rightly) that it's futile to test when nothing is ever done with the information. Add to that the fact that there are no incentives to test, and that new content doesn't last long enough on live as it is and you get a low pop test server. As far as I'm concerned, a low pop on the test server is totally acceptable considering the fact that EA/BW simply does not listen and fix the problems uncovered.

 

As for my language, I think "lazy" might sound harsh but it was a correct term. To put it in a more politically correct format the installation/signup process for the PTS is "not simple enough for some people to have the motivation to complete". I'm not knocking people who can't be bothered to go through the process and I agree it should be simplified but it is a tad lazy if some can't be bothered to transfer an alt and spend an hour or two downloading the client, it's not going to kill them.

 

Yeah, basically you are saying that anyone who doesn't use PTS is lazy. Your ignorance is absolutely astounding. Once again, my job involves machining, not being a free beta tester for a product I pay to play for enjoyment. You want to test, go ahead, but if they want me to work for them, EA/BW will compensate me in some way. It isn't about the time, it's about the fact that it isn't my responsibility to fix EA/BW problems...especially when they don't listen.

 

As for thinking people shouldn't be entitled to something/get paid to publicly test... they shouldn't. You'd think people would get all hyped up about trying new content and revel in it like it's Christmas come early but most seem to dismiss it like it's some nasty disease and demand handouts like it's the job centre. People should be motivated to try out new content purely for the fun of trying new stuff itself not on any titles or trinkets bioware might or might not give out. To me there seems no enthusiasm to try out something new... are the two new operations, new daily planet and PvP arenas really not worth spitting on?

 

It's amazing how wrong one person can be all the time. You want an employee, you pay them. You don't pay in some way then don't expect anyone to work for you. New content is what I pay to experience and I as the customer have the right to expect it is done right. I am motivated to try new content where it matters...on my regular toons. It lasts for such a short time before it gets old that people don't want to get burned out on it trying to fix things that EA/BW should be fixing. I'm not going to work for anyone for free, and that is exactly what PTS testing is.

 

As for progression I didn't really touch on this (although I seem to have hit a raw nerve somewhere with the addled git response I got), but lets use what you said for example. A lot of guilds seem to hold off PTS testing due to the fact it might actually discredit them from getting ranked on a spreadsheet if they cleared the op before it went live (despite the contrary to what you said about world firsts, I suspect this is what your guild is doing). To me this whole world first malarkey does put a noose around the PTS populations neck in a way, with guilds wanting to get their first kill legitimately on a bug free/balanced boss on live and not get called out because they've downed a PTS version beforehand.

 

What? I don't even...

 

Some even argue why operations should be on the PTS in the first place but my case that is just take a look how the second boss of dread fortress was last week, imagine if it was released on live servers in that state I bet your guild wont just be bug reporting but threatening to quit the game in a massive forum rage!!! This is why it is important to test not only operations but all content publicly as it seems biowares internal QA don't know their heads from their backsides. While not everything fed back will probably get fixed I do feel it's important to have many people on the PTS as the last line of defence mentioning possible game breaking stuff before it hits live, however with the current pop that's a bit bleak.

 

Again, it is EA/BW's responsibility to make sure they are ready, not the paying customers. You seem to ignorantly believe it is somehow our responsibility to find EA/BW's mistakes. It isn't. It is their responsibility and if they can't do it maybe they should hire people who can.

Edited September 7, 2013 by Grayseven

[branmakmuffin]

Although I do agree that this is a question for Bioware, I don't understand why they don't at least try giving players more incentives.

I don't either. And I'm not talking about money.

 

All in all, I think both players and Bioware are to blame for the current state of the PTS.

If you want to take some responsibility for it, feel free to do so. I will share none of it.

[Fixiooo]

I don't know if the PTS has premade characters, but that would be something to add to lure players in.

Premade characters with the best gear available, a load of credits and stims etc.

[chuixupu]

I thought that the devs playing with players was a pretty cool incentive for the arena testing.

 

For other content, it's really hard to come up with something that will interest everyone. In the past, they gave titles and I think there was a pet or something at one point, but that didn't draw people in that much. They could try offering some Cartel Coins for completing certain kinds of content.

 

I think for a lot of people, they just don't want to burn themselves out on new content, they want to experience it fresh on the live servers.

[Laendser]

First off motives for my post is not just about having more people for new operations, it's about highlighting the fact the public test server isn't serving it's purpose as a whole with such a low population for all content and I'm just wondering where is everybody? This is meant to be a AAA game is it not yet I've seen bigger pops on test servers for small indie games, this is unacceptable especially on a quite large patch with such a variety on content and I just want to know why?

-Laendser: AAA game: B+ for effort, D- for execution.

 

As for my language, I think "lazy" might sound harsh but it was a correct term. To put it in a more politically correct format the installation/signup process for the PTS is "not simple enough for some people to have the motivation to complete". I'm not knocking people who can't be bothered to go through the process and I agree it should be simplified but it is a tad lazy if some can't be bothered to transfer an alt and spend an hour or two downloading the client, it's not going to kill them.

-Laendser: Lazy? No. Can't be arsed? Yes.

 

As for thinking people shouldn't be entitled to something/get paid to publicly test... they shouldn't. You'd think people would get all hyped up about trying new content and revel in it like it's Christmas come early but most seem to dismiss it like it's some nasty disease and demand handouts like it's the job centre. People should be motivated to try out new content purely for the fun of trying new stuff itself not on any titles or trinkets bioware might or might not give out. To me there seems no enthusiasm to try out something new... are the two new operations, new daily planet and PvP arenas really not worth spitting on?

-Laendser: People should get all hyped up like it's Xmas early, lol? No. Most people realize that the new content will be underwhelming so might as well just slog on in live and deal with the mess when it hits live later. The test content is like reruns of The Andy Griffith Show, not exactly something to get all excited about.

 

As for progression I didn't really touch on this (although I seem to have hit a raw nerve somewhere with the addled git response I got), but lets use what you said for example. A lot of guilds seem to hold off PTS testing due to the fact it might actually discredit them from getting ranked on a spreadsheet if they cleared the op before it went live (despite the contrary to what you said about world firsts, I suspect this is what your guild is doing). To me this whole world first malarkey does put a noose around the PTS populations neck in a way, with guilds wanting to get their first kill legitimately on a bug free/balanced boss on live and not get called out because they've downed a PTS version beforehand.

-Laendser: Sorry, I've been done with high school drama for a long time now, not interested.

 

Some even argue why operations should be on the PTS in the first place but my case that is just take a look how the second boss of dread fortress was last week, imagine if it was released on live servers in that state I bet your guild wont just be bug reporting but threatening to quit the game in a massive forum rage!!! This is why it is important to test not only operations but all content publicly as it seems biowares internal QA don't know their heads from their backsides. While not everything fed back will probably get fixed I do feel it's important to have many people on the PTS as the last line of defence mentioning possible game breaking stuff before it hits live, however with the current pop that's a bit bleak.

-Laendser: Well said.

 

See quote above for comments.

Edited September 8, 2013 by Laendser

[ekimmak]

I have no interest in it, because I can't afford a second copy of the game on my laptop, and my computer that can run it has a much smaller screen. It gets claustrophobic to try and fit 6 quickbars into that screen. And then there's the fact that I've literally tested all that I can. The heroic at the end of the Oricron quest chain is beyond me.

[Grayseven]

Why would anyone be willing to put in any effort to test new content on the PTS for nothing? EA/BW is a corporation and if they can't get 8 man and 16 man groups together to test their own content and see if it is balanced then why would anyone think that the customers of their product would be willing to do the same thing?

 

What possible benefit would I get for testing on PTS? Earlier burnout from doing the content without any of the effort transferring over to the live game where I actually benefit? Not an incentive for anyone that I know of.

 

It makes no sense to have players testing this. Internal testing would get much better bug reporting and balance fixes than anything written by players.

[Fixiooo]

Why would anyone be willing to put in any effort to test new content on the PTS for nothing? EA/BW is a corporation and if they can't get 8 man and 16 man groups together to test their own content and see if it is balanced then why would anyone think that the customers of their product would be willing to do the same thing?

 

What possible benefit would I get for testing on PTS? Earlier burnout from doing the content without any of the effort transferring over to the live game where I actually benefit? Not an incentive for anyone that I know of.

 

It makes no sense to have players testing this. Internal testing would get much better bug reporting and balance fixes than anything written by players.

 

Because from players you get a wider perspective. Look at MMO-Champion in regards to WoW when they run the PTR and guilds are testing new raids. A lot of things they did not find with internal testing are all ironed out and fixed. It also helps them to tune the bosses based on data collected from players doing these raids. More people testing the raids is more data.

 

Besides, at times during testing on the PTR a GM will come in and fix certain things if possible on the spot. Seen it once, was pretty cool.

[mulzii]

I put in as much enough in testing on the PTS as Bioware puts into development for PvP. So once every 2 years sounds about right..

[AlrikFassbauer]

I'd like to emphasize that to me, as a story player, NOT being spoilt is VERY important !

 

Now you'd ask : "Who does play for story these days ?"

 

I do.

 

But - I admit it - I seem to be in an absolute minority in MMOs anyway, because MMOs have become rather hack & slay lootfests these years.

Edited September 8, 2013 by AlrikFassbauer

[iikey]

What's the size of the PTS? well I mean the new patch because I know you have to download the entire client again, but what about the 2.4 patch what's the size of it? I also think having to download the whole client again is ridiculous because who wants to have a game that large twice on their HD? not to mention having to download it lol. That's lazyness from BW and I'm sure it alienates a lot of people from getting on the PTS.

[LordArtemis]

Well, again, I think the question has been answered.

 

And it seems the most popular reply was not "I want to get paid to do it" or "its a pain to download another copy" etc., but the idea that Bioware ignores feedback.

 

As I said, if they make an effort to PROVE they do, in fact, listen to feedback I think they will find more folks will test out content...I suspect that they do a better job now of listening to testers. They just have to prove it to the folks that still hold a grudge.

[Creslan]

The whole point of a PTS is to create a forum where you can Test different ideas and builds, This is not the case in the current PTS.

 

If I wanted to test vanguard changes I would have to copy over my vanguard, but what if my vanguard isn't geared? Oh well, guess you are out of luck.

 

There should be a system in place that allows you to create a New Character, Instant Level it then a vendor that sells all current and PTS gear (Armor, augment kits, augments) for 1 credit each. This would allow players to Test various different builds with armor and stats to see what is going on, to actually Test. If you could go to the PTS and have the tools to test any gear/spec set up easily, people would be more willing to go.

 

Next, LOCKOUTS on PTS operations. This needs to Disappear. You can't ask people to test if they are only allowed to test 1 time, then need to recopy and travel to the new area( Which is no small feat in Oricon). This would allow an operations group to run the same few fights over and over, they could test gear sets if they had the previous idea in place. We could run it in 66, 69, 72 gear and see how difficult it actually is. It's a little difficult to gage difficulty of an operation designed for 69 gear if our whole group is in 72/75 gear.

 

If they had a different system in place I feel more people would be willing to test. The current system doesn't allow the non geared to test and punishes people willing to test.

[LordArtemis]

The whole point of a PTS is to create a forum where you can Test different ideas and builds, This is not the case in the current PTS.

 

If I wanted to test vanguard changes I would have to copy over my vanguard, but what if my vanguard isn't geared? Oh well, guess you are out of luck.

 

There should be a system in place that allows you to create a New Character, Instant Level it then a vendor that sells all current and PTS gear (Armor, augment kits, augments) for 1 credit each. This would allow players to Test various different builds with armor and stats to see what is going on, to actually Test. If you could go to the PTS and have the tools to test any gear/spec set up easily, people would be more willing to go.

 

Next, LOCKOUTS on PTS operations. This needs to Disappear. You can't ask people to test if they are only allowed to test 1 time, then need to recopy and travel to the new area( Which is no small feat in Oricon). This would allow an operations group to run the same few fights over and over, they could test gear sets if they had the previous idea in place. We could run it in 66, 69, 72 gear and see how difficult it actually is. It's a little difficult to gage difficulty of an operation designed for 69 gear if our whole group is in 72/75 gear.

 

If they had a different system in place I feel more people would be willing to test. The current system doesn't allow the non geared to test and punishes people willing to test.

 

This is a good point. Frogs are the key.

 

For anyone that does not know what a "frog" is, there was a terminal in SWG that allowed folks to gear up and push all abilities to max called a "blue frog". You could create a character, run to the blue frog, level up all of your abilities and gear up to the top.

 

This way you could test out end game content right away, and also test out changes to abilities, top end gear, etc.

 

This would be a must for a proper testing environment IMO.

Edited September 8, 2013 by LordArtemis

[Andryah]

As I said, if they make an effort to PROVE they do, in fact, listen to feedback I think they will find more folks will test out content...I suspect that they do a better job now of listening to testers. They just have to prove it to the folks that still hold a grudge.

 

I don't really think so. There is this meta-feeling in the general player base that MMO devs don't listen to feedback. Not just this one.. all MMOs to one degree or another. In my observation.. this comes from feelings that if a player gives feedback.. said feedback must be valid and must be addressed. When in fact.. I think most of us know that not all feedback is valid (in the broad player context), nor is it practical to immediately drop everything in preparing for a release and address feedback.

 

Anyone that has worked on or led large development projects knows full well that you collect feedback.. then you review and sort feedback..and then you prioritize valid feedback to be addressed by one or more work packages inside a project team. It rarely happens overnight.. and sometimes it can be a year or more before feedback is actually acted upon.

 

In addition, some player feedback on any given PTS has absolutely nothing to do with the current patch.

 

The feedback most likely to be acting on during PTS are actual serious bugs that essentially break something core to the patch release (not less serious ones where the player disagrees with an implementation.. like a skill change)

 

No.. the "they don't listen to feedback" statements IMO more often actually passive aggressive responses in lieu of the "I want to be incented to test". In other words.. they are contrived.. or they are based on a false sense of understanding as to how feedback is collected/reviewed/acted_upon.

 

And it seems the most popular reply was not "I want to get paid to do it" or "its a pain to download another copy" etc., but the idea that Bioware ignores feedback.

 

I do believe that in today's player base of MMOs.. if there is nothing in it for the player.. they won't bother. Even in other MMOs like Rift and WoW.. the incentive is to get early access to "beat the encounters" to give advantage to "server first epeen".

[Andryah]

The whole point of a PTS is to create a forum where you can Test different ideas and builds, This is not the case in the current PTS.

 

If I wanted to test vanguard changes I would have to copy over my vanguard, but what if my vanguard isn't geared? Oh well, guess you are out of luck.

 

I think this statement is only partially true. Part of the point of the PTS on some patches is to test new builds and rotations.... when there are significant changes to one or more classes or general balance between classes. In instances where this was the case.. they did in fact give players methods to equip and test. But in patch test cycles where this was not the case.. they do not. AND they have stated this as intentional on their part.

 

While I agree with you that an MMO company can provide an environment for players to proto-test their characters in new builds and skill rotations... there is no reason for them to do so in general.. only for specific reasons.

 

Would it be nice? sure. Is it essential? not really. We can do this in game now pretty easily..it's just that to pre-test a new patch for effects... we might not be able to.

 

Yes, I understand that players have become "accustomed" to this on PTS in MMOs... but that does not make it a sacred requirement.. and it certainly does not insure that players will actually test PTS content. In fact... it likely distracts from focus on testing things the devs actually want you to play test.

 

There are also some players that want PTS up perpetually too... because they like hanging around and playing on a test server. I have seen threads demanding it for this very reason. But again.. that serve the players purpose.. NOT the devs purpose of a PTS. At the end of the day.. PTS is not a toy box for players.. it's a beta test environment for the devs to check and monitor how reality compares to plan.. and for that to be efficient.. they need to control the scripting and focus of testing. And to control that.. they need to keep tight constraints on the PTS environment.

 

TL;DR --- PTS exists for the devs purpose and test plan focus.. NOT players. This is where the misunderstanding rests IMO.

Edited September 8, 2013 by Andryah

[DarkSaberMaster]

*snip*

 

Wow lol.

[Rafaman]

Heh. IMO, the PTS is just that, a test server for whatever Bioware needs to test. I don't believe it should be anymore than that either. There are some that want rewards or, as was the case early on, to make it their main server, which is not what the test server is about. And btw, we shouldn't dictate what is tested either, class balance or otherwise. No, those that wish to participate will and those that don't won't. And if not many are participating, that's fine. The PTS is NOT Biowares main form or method of testing. Never was.

 

TBH, the flight from the PTS is from casuals that didn't understand what "testing" really means. Once they figure out there is little reward and virtually no progression, they are gone, which is a good thing.

 

As for feedback, I have dissuaded myself from believing that the PTS is democratic forum on what the game should be. And it shouldn't be. Bioware decides what is what. I get the final product. If I don't like it, I go elsewhere with my money.

 

It is what it is.

[Darth-Malice]

Prime time hours, 15 people on the fleet on the test server. Maybe if Bioware actually showed they cared about the community and we were more then a source of money to be milked people would actually test there "Content" but as it stands there's no incentive too help ungrateful EA.

[MidichIorian]

Well for starters, they've made it really hard to test the new content and class balancing by forcing us to transfer existing and geared characters instead of allowing us to simply create max level characters and outft them for free.

 

Second, there's no incentive to make people give up on their "live time".

 

Third, in this particular case I think it has to do with the content. The interest for Arenas is low. Hell, even the people who have actually played and steamrolled everyone on PTS can't see Arenas having a future. As for the operations, you need 8 people and that's tough, for the reasons mentioned above.

[ImpactHound]

Bumping in light of this thread. Wondering if the lack of player testers is what's prompting the hiring?