How do you kill a scoundrel?

[Brunner_Venda]

But he doesn't have to die first. A healer is much easier to kill without support from others. Hence.

 

Sitting on the healer 24/7 is not a good thing fyi, and going for them as killtarget is far from always optimal.

 

The healer with the huttball needs to die first. In any objective capture situation, if there is more than one cross-healing healer, one of the healers has to die or nobody does. More often than not, the latter happens.

 

I don't see what we're arguing about here. Are you all really convinced that you are balanced when compared to Sorcs and (especially) merc healers?

 

Are you telling me that a little more energy management or a couple of second CD on roll will kill your class?

[L-RANDLE]

news flash, things do die in wz, including healers . If an op healer was all that was necessary to prevent people from dying no one would ever get an objective done.

 

Just because you can't kill a healer 1 v 1 in a few GCDs, doesn't mean they are unbalanced. It means you need to start learning how to play with your team. It means you need to start learning how to mark healers. It means you need to start learning how to save your CCs. In short, you need to L2P in PvP.

 

Heals can possibly die, but the rate at which that happens is not conducive to objective based PvP. And no one said a few globals, but the fact that solo could take over 50-60 is absurd in INSTANCED OBJECTIVE -BASED WZ.

 

We shouldnt have to mark healers. We shouldn't have to gbang them in order to get them down in a timely fashion. Their TTK against DPS should be faster than a tank and its not. That fraks up roshambo, so you are actually defending an imbalance.

 

Remove the ninja healing buff, buff other DPS classes, nerf smash, nerf Ops energy management EZMODE...

[Tankqull]

In short, you need to L2P in PvP.

 

nah they want to keep their playing style

[Evolixe]

The healer with the huttball needs to die first. In any objective capture situation, if there is more than one cross-healing healer, one of the healers has to die or nobody does. More often than not, the latter happens.

 

I don't see what we're arguing about here. Are you all really convinced that you are balanced when compared to Sorcs and (especially) merc healers?

 

Are you telling me that a little more energy management or a couple of second CD on roll will kill your class?

 

Are you seriously suggesting taking down the marauder first or the tank before the healer? The classes that have a crapload of defensive CDs to spare? I've seen tanks being healed through huttball fire, do you expect DPS to take down such a tank BEFORE the healer? Do you take the people on this forum for idiots?

 

Hell even I on my sniper can be a real pain in the butt for multiple DPS if I got a healer backing me up.

 

Lol, ever heared of Control and Oppertunity?

 

I advise you both to watch the videolink in my signature, you will learn something.

[NoTomorrow]

news flash, things do die in wz, including healers . If an op healer was all that was necessary to prevent people from dying no one would ever get an objective done.

 

Just because you can't kill a healer 1 v 1 in a few GCDs, doesn't mean they are unbalanced. It means you need to start learning how to play with your team. It means you need to start learning how to mark healers. It means you need to start learning how to save your CCs. In short, you need to L2P in PvP.

 

Ladies and gentlemen, hereby i present you the second BS statement that operative healers have been trying to shove down your throats: "Operative healer players are on average more skilled than everybody else".

[sithBracer]

We shouldnt have to mark healers.

 

This is what you get out of playing PvP for 2 years?

 

You have a good day.

[Tankqull]

Ladies and gentlemen, hereby i present you the second BS statement that operative healers have been trying to shove down your throats: "Operative healer players are on average more skilled than everybody else".

 

well alot of those healers are former dps specced guys that masters the first few nerf rounds but got pissed after beeing nerfed constantly in nearly every patch. so yes alot of those healers are more skilled than the average, but an averaged played scounderel or ops is dead within seconds as any other heal spec.

btw you can currently observe the same issuse with the few left merc/comm heals played, they either totally suck(as they are newbees to the game) or are really awesome and do a really good job as they are2 year vets loving thei r class. while on the other hand sorcs/sages are inflated with wannabees that are not worth a group slot...

[NoTomorrow]

well alot of those healers are former dps specced guys that masters the first few nerf rounds but got pissed after beeing nerfed constantly in nearly every patch. so yes alot of those healers are more skilled than the average, but an averaged played scounderel or ops is dead within seconds as any other heal spec.

btw you can currently observe the same issuse with the few left merc/comm heals played, they either totally suck(as they are newbees to the game) or are really awesome and do a really good job as they are2 year vets loving thei r class. while on the other hand sorcs/sages are inflated with wannabees that are not worth a group slot...

 

Merc healing was overpowered before 1.2. The nerf was brutal, but better that than not doing anything about it.

Now about op healers. You do agree that op healing got a buff in 2.0 compared to 1.7. You cannot argue against this.

If you claim that op healers in 2.0 are balanced than based on this and previous statement tge 1.7 op healers had to be underpowered?

 

Do you honestly believe, that 1.7 op healing was underpowered (during the era when pt pyros had that powerful burst)?

To me the class was very very good even during 1.7. All the 2.0 op healing changes were over the top.

Edited September 3, 2013 by NoTomorrow

[L-RANDLE]

This is what you get out of playing PvP for 2 years?

 

You have a good day.

 

Nope, we shouldnt. Two years have shown me that few understand what balance should mean in PvP. They should not be priority for DPS, tanks should be.

 

Tanks counter DPS, DPS counters heals, heals counter tanks(though outhealing tank damage). The start is to nerf healing, then make tank guard adjust healing and mitigation accordingly to force them as a priority. That is then offset by tank mitigation and taunts.

 

This is significantly closer to the roshambo baseline than what we currently have.

[demystified]

Merc were the best healers at one point. Then sorc with bubble stun became the best healers. Now the operative healers will shine. You just need to reroll just like the devs want you to. At least having a no cost way to heal is better than 150 resolve aoe stun. Edited September 4, 2013 by demystified

[keeroo]

I know it sounds like rocket science to you smash monkeys, but the first 2 "m"s stand for "Massively multiplayer" not "me myself". You can kill as many scrubs as you like in wz, but if you can't learn this simple skill of coordination, you will always be destined to do nothing more than QQ. Today it's about the scoundrel healer, tomorrow it will be about the shrouding shadow.

 

This made me laugh

 

The current top level of dps seems to be defined by the smash monkey's burst output. If a smash monkey doesn't roflstomp smth, it is hugely overpowered. In the developer question thread from KeyboardNinja, it was extensively discussed that smash monkeys have an about 10% reduced single target damage output compared to the other 2 skill trees. If a smash monkey wants to _kill_ healers, consider combat / carnage as your primary choice...

[mulzii]

Do people even realize what the main issue of the scoundrel/operative healers is? Not the roll. Not the energy management (though this is still broken). Its the TA generation off the HoT. They can spam the HoT on everyone on the team instantly, which generates TA and keeps them topped off. Which, when they get under 30%, lets them indefinately case their free instant heal. They never, ever run out of TA like lethal/concealment ops do. Medical Engineering + Surgical Precision is the main problem with this class.

 

Then you factor in the stupid gear-based bonuses from different pieces being stackable, and this healing class is just a joke. (i think they are addressing this piece though)

 

They need to remove the TA generation from the probe (eg. take probe out of medical enggineering) and make the probe a 1 sec cast time. Personally, I think they should make the probe only casttable on one person at a time (just like all the other probes in the game). This would force OPs to use nanotech to heal more than one person at a time.

[JackNader]

Not really sure why Operatives are allowed a spammable TA while the target is under 30%. No other healing class can lol spam like this. Mercs instant heal has a very lengthy cooldown and heals for peanuts.

[Cretinus]

Not really sure why Operatives are allowed a spammable TA while the target is under 30%. No other healing class can lol spam like this. Mercs instant heal has a very lengthy cooldown and heals for peanuts.

 

I'll tell you why. It's because sorcs are much more popular than operatives (sorcs have light swords, the force, etc.) and BW doesn't want 99% of all ranged players to play a sorc.

Operatives are meanwhile much stronger than sorcs in PvP, but there are still more sorcs than operatives. To fix this, BW will probably nerf sorcs even more and at the same time, make operatives even more OP.

Problem here is that many sorc players will rather quit the game than swap their sorc for an operative.

[Zoom_VI]

Why should he not be? He's a healer.

 

You're a dps, not a tank or a healer. Your job is to dps, not to hold an objective on your own against 5 people for a minute straight.

 

Your argument is stupid.

 

In the triangle of roles

Dps are supposed to beat healers 1v1

Tanks are supposed to beat dps 1v1

Healers are supposed t beat tanks 1v1

 

Also calling a argument stupid is the stupidest argument ever

[JaingSkiratapwns]

In the triangle of roles

Dps are supposed to beat healers 1v1

Tanks are supposed to beat dps 1v1

Healers are supposed t beat tanks 1v1

 

Also calling a argument stupid is the stupidest argument ever

 

What.....

[Carter_Mathis]

What.....

 

I think they're trying to play rock paper scissors.... but ToR isn't quite that simple.

 

Might I suggest rock, paper, scissors, lizard, Spock?

[Evolixe]

In the triangle of roles

Dps are supposed to beat healers 1v1

Tanks are supposed to beat dps 1v1

Healers are supposed t beat tanks 1v1

 

Also calling a argument stupid is the stupidest argument ever

 

Rofl, no.

 

R/P/S works in a group envirionment, not 1v1.

 

Besides that, tank's don't beat dps 1v1.

[AlrikFassbauer]

I know it sounds like rocket science to you smash monkeys, but the first 2 "m"s stand for "Massively multiplayer" not "me myself".

 

Even within the Class Stories, yes ?

 

In the developer question thread from KeyboardNinja, it was extensively discussed that

 

Meanwhile Vanguards/PTs got an "perception problem", and Sorcerors/Sages an "heal to full".

Which just shows to me where the dev team's priorities are.

 

Healers are supposed t beat tanks 1v1

 

A Sage beating an Power-Tech ? Uh ...

Edited September 5, 2013 by AlrikFassbauer

[Zoom_VI]

Rofl, no.

 

R/P/S works in a group envirionment, not 1v1.

 

Besides that, tank's don't beat dps 1v1.

 

No kidding they don't beat dps, this game's tanks are pathetic. A tank *should* win out because of superior mitigation, Ofc then BW decided that certain dps classes needed better dcd's than tanks, and that certain damage/attack types shouldn't be mitigatable.

 

Right now swtor has

Dps>tanks

Heals>tanks

Dps>merc&sorc healers

Operative healer>all

[Zoom_VI]

No it doesn't because no one is ever of equal skill. "Assuming equal skill" is an oxymoron because there are different types of "skills". If a dps is skilled at attacking groups while the healer is "skilled" at escaping and survivability does that entitle him to kill him (assuming both skills are equal)? Are you talking about equal dps skill? In which case the dps class will usually win against a healer class. And I don't often see tanks killing marauders or snipers in this game either. I don't see tanks beating sins in 1 v 1 duels either. Your dumb rock/paper/scissors theory does not apply in this game. Try pokemon instead-much more up to your level I think.

When I say equal skill, I mean that each person is playing their spec optimally. Also your forgetting in competitive pvp the healer is guarded and tuants are being thrown around, so the simple dps pressure argument becomes moot.

 

 

So you mean the other team will actually use teamwork to prevent you from winning? How horrible of them. I mean working together in a mmo that brings people together to play on the same team is just criminal. I think you should report them to bioware for cheating. It's obviously easier than learning how to outplay them.

 

If he is guarded, then he isn't the problem is he? More like the tank is the problem. If the dps are protecting him and taking you out before you an kill them then they (or your lack of skills) are the problem aren't they.

The problem is that the if the operative and team are even marginally competent, they won't die. Even to better dps because the margin for error with a operative healer is ridiculously huge.

 

 

 

That is a problem with the other classes, not the op class. Unfortunately those classes were not optimized for PvP (but for PvE really) so that is why they are not as strong as the op class-who was optimized with survivability, which is very important in PvP. If you haven't been in a cave last week you would know that a whole meme was started because of bioware's response to the sorc's lack of survivability and easy interrupt-ability in arenas. Those classes are underpowered and need buffs.

 

Firstly Operative are not optimized for survivability, they have some of the worst dcd, but the instant healing makes up for it. Also "other classes are optimized for pve" lol, go check the EHPS charts for NiM raids on torparse. Guess which class has all the top spots? Operative/scoundrel

[Tankqull]

Firstly Operative are not optimized for survivability, they have some of the worst dcd, but the instant healing makes up for it. Also "other classes are optimized for pve" lol, go check the EHPS charts for NiM raids on torparse. Guess which class has all the top spots? Operative/scoundrel

 

take a closer look at those parses as they are horribly missleading. the highest HPS you can achieve is by hotting every one of your 16man group and insta ae hot on top of that. this is extreamly useless as you will wipe at every encounter but whooha you have an HPS of around 6-9k...

while having a merc doing less than 50% of that keeps your raid alive through all encounters ...

 

DPS in pvp inflated by dots are aknowladge as useless, but HPS inflatted by hots compensating dots are

... same counts to pve

 

Now about op healers. You do agree that op healing got a buff in 2.0 compared to 1.7. You cannot argue against this.

well i do, they haven´t been buffed beside adding the roll wich still is one of the worst defensive tools of SWTOR - but is really great in the first few seconds of a WZ to achieve a wz-goal so i would agrre to call this a true buff.

but they are the healer that profits the most by doubling everyones hitpoints wich heavily increases the effectivity of hots. without buffing them directly. the myth of the increased energy managment only proves how many meager ops/scoundrals are out their as only they profit from the changes done, those using pugnacity properly have been heavily nerfed in their energy management...

If you claim that op healers in 2.0 are balanced than based on this and previous statement tge 1.7 op healers had to be underpowered?

 

Do you honestly believe, that 1.7 op healing was underpowered (during the era when pt pyros had that powerful burst)?

To me the class was very very good even during 1.7. All the 2.0 op healing changes were over the top.

i do not felt them underpowered in 1.7 - if they would actually roll back all changes but keep the hp of post 2.0 my HPS would significantly increase once more

regarding pyro-pts i have to disagree once more their burst was never the issue(calling dmg-spikes every 3rd GCD "burst" is quite hilarious anyway ), the extream high sustainted dps(in pvp) combined with the inability of getting away from them was. nerfing them was killing the only true predator of healers - other well played dps still can kill scoundrels/ops effectivly but they could have been played by chipmonks and roflstomped every healer within seconds.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Tankqull

[-IceHawk-]

HPS =/= EHPS

 

Operative/Scoundrel Healers top the Effective Healing Per Second charts as well as the overall HPS charts on HM and NiM difficulties.

 

In the Top 50 of HM/NiM Horror (8Man) the ratio is 42:8 Op versus non Op Healers.

In the Top 50 of HM/NiM Horror (16M) that ratio declines to 30:20.

 

Considering that the Expected Ratio should be 1:2 seeing these numbers indicates a distinct competitive advantage for the Operative/Scoundrel Healer in effective output.

 

Looking at the numbers one finds there is a statistically significant over-representation of Operative/Scoundrel Healers on most higher difficulty Operations and that the mean and median effective output of the AC is comparably superior.

 

Over-Representation of the AC in Top Charts.

Higher Mean and Median EHPS capability.

 

Paired with Stealth.

 

Sounds balanced to me.

[Tankqull]

HPS =/= EHPS

 

and still an useless stat.

the higest (still only second placed first place is a sorc) EHPS done by a scoundrel(cheryl-s) had an EHPS of 4857.59,.

87.36% of this has been achieved by slowrelease medpack and koltocloud aka hots. 11.45% has been the insta heal. those numbers combinded resemble without an dedicated singel target healer the entire raid is dead as those fluff heals dont help at all beside stroking your epeen.

 

Azerils parse is much more impressive, with 30% less fluffheal he achieves 300EHPS more ...

Edited September 5, 2013 by Tankqull

[L-RANDLE]

No kidding they don't beat dps, this game's tanks are pathetic. A tank *should* win out because of superior mitigation, Ofc then BW decided that certain dps classes needed better dcd's than tanks, and that certain damage/attack types shouldn't be mitigatable.

 

Right now swtor has

Dps>tanks

Heals>tanks

Dps>merc&sorc healers

Operative healer>all

 

QFT.... And also what the devs have lost sight of. The basics of roshambo.

 

Tank guard should buff mitigation and healing. Also an increase passive mitigation across the board is needed for tanks to actually win DPS races against DPS Specs.

 

If they increased trauma by 10%, give slightly larger immuntity uptime for the other two heal classes, nerf smash, buff other DPS, and made the above change, then we would be getting somewhere.