Terror From Beyond (NiM) 8-Man Progression Tracking

[e_nk_ay]

So if it's not cheating why not leap frog straight to TFB?

 

Because our agenda wasn't to be OMG FIRST like I stated above. Our streams have full voice chat on them, and you can hear our discussion regarding wanting to move on to see if the entire instance was broken or if it was just DG about 4 hours into the raid. We didn't even rush to do it, we took off the rest of the afternoon, came back at normal raid time (8:30 EST), tried some more then made the switch.

[ML_DoubleTap]

I am only going to post about this once. To people quoting my earlier remark, If you listen to our stream you can hear the discussion we had concerning skipping of DG. The motivation is quite clear in that stream. It took hours of wipes to convince me that DG was impossible with current enrage timer. It took a lot for me to admit that the fight in its current state is not possible and in the end that was the only possible conclusion. It is better at this point to skip DG and kill or at least try out the other fights. Looking back it was the right decision to make and I wish we had made it sooner. Count it, don't count it, I don't care at this point. It will be amusing to see you all change your tunes come monday.

 

But you are completely missing the point. You attempted to set the precedent in the thread that it should count if it's skipped. You decided to do just that and then have it counted. How can you not see how shady that looks? Whether intended or not, you tried to set a rule that you were the first to break.

[iSeth]

Lets be honest. Nobody cares about the other bosses at this point. Everyone being down on D&T are just upset that they didn't put in more effort. I personally feel that somebody somewhere will kill DG this week or next. I really hope that they do not nerf them. It's a very challenging fight that requires perfection.

 

Watching suckafish stream they are doing something's perfect but they have mistakes like all of us. Everyone is working out how to be perfect. D&T gave up thier attempts to be perfect until next week. That is thier choice.

 

I think killing DG before they are nerfed will be the most pretigious thing on this game to date. Can your guild be perfect and do it. Based off streams I feel that the DG will die this week or at very least a sub 10% attempt.

[RikuvonDrake]

Delete This Post Edited June 13, 2013 by RikuvonDrake

[dipstik]

just wanted to chime in to say that what DnT did is the only thing that really makes sense (to me) if the boss is impossible (i have seen the boss get down to 19% so im on the fence)...

 

looking at the way the progression spreadsheet is setup, it seemed obvious to me that each boss had a seperate set of points to distribute, and cheesing a spreadsheet is a perfectly viable way to increase you total progression score. as soon as i saw the thread that said it was impossible i suggested to my guildmates that we should just skip it and get more points from the other bosses. this was not the majority/senority decision, so we worked on that boss for 9 more hours... to no avail.

 

i am not a purist, and appreciate abusing broken mechanics (time vault+voltaic key), so i would never discourage a group from abusing the lack of rules set forth. it is unfortunate that their smart (to me) decision was met with so much blowback, and now i understand why my guildmates hesitated to actually progress in the operation.

[e_nk_ay]

just wanted to chime in to say that what DnT did is the only thing that really makes sense (to me) if the boss is impossible (i have seen the boss get down to 19% so im on the fence)...

 

looking at the way the progression spreadsheet is setup, it seemed obvious to me that each boss had a seperate set of points to distribute, and cheesing a spreadsheet is a perfectly viable way to increase you total progression score. as soon as i saw the thread that said it was impossible i suggested to my guildmates that we should just skip it and get more points from the other bosses. this was not the majority/senority decision, so we worked on that boss for 9 more hours... to no avail.

 

i am not a purist, and appreciate abusing broken mechanics (time vault+voltaic key), so i would never discourage a group from abusing the lack of rules set forth. it is unfortunate that their smart (to me) decision was met with so much blowback, and now i understand why my guildmates hesitated to actually progress in the operation.

 

In my original post of our kill in this thread I said I think the kill should be counted at DISCOUNTED POINTS (as well as any boss killed after a boss that was done on HM)

[OneShotXV]

I honestly don't see a problem with skipping guards. So what, they got the world first on Op IX and Kephess. Honestly, who gives a **** about either of those firsts? I'd guess no one. What people will care about it the world first CLEAR of the place. Now you can define that in one of two way's I would say:

 

1) All 5 boss kills, in any order

2) All 5 boss kills, in order, in the same week

 

Either way, DnT gave up their chance for the world first clear this week to skip ahead. They took a risk that it wouldn't be cleared (or patched) this week, it wasn't a risk free decision for them I'm sure, just as my guild debated it as well. We decided not to, they decided to do it, and I see no problem either way. We should pick one of those two definitions and stick to it in terms of the ranking, but skipping ahead shouldn't remove you from the ranking altogether, it just shouldn't count for anything that week until they go back in and finish the whole place. It's not cheating, it's not an exploit, they used a feature that bioware intentionally put into the game. Whether or not it should be that way is up for debate, but it exists, it was intentional on the part of the Devs, and i do not see them changing it any time soon. Everyone in the thread is acting like they bugged out the encounter and found a way to kill guards without actually fighting them, and I don't think its the same thing at all. As long as the game is designed this way, people should be allowed to use it, it just doesn't count as a clear until you get all of the bosses down... world firsts on individual bosses mean nothing anyway, and one raider getting boots and a helm isn't going to make up for 500k damage in a 6 minute fight anyway.

[DarthByron]

Guild Name: SR

Guild Website : http://www.shadow-revan.co.uk

Server : Tomb of Freedon Nadd

Region : EU

Screenshot: Legacy

[odawgg]

Please do not change anything on second boss. Given time, we are sure we can do this and this is exactly a challenge we expected

 

Lets be honest. Nobody cares about the other bosses at this point. Everyone being down on D&T are just upset that they didn't put in more effort. I personally feel that somebody somewhere will kill DG this week or next. I really hope that they do not nerf them. It's a very challenging fight that requires perfection.

 

Watching suckafish stream they are doing something's perfect but they have mistakes like all of us. Everyone is working out how to be perfect. D&T gave up thier attempts to be perfect until next week. That is thier choice.

 

I think killing DG before they are nerfed will be the most pretigious thing on this game to date. Can your guild be perfect and do it. Based off streams I feel that the DG will die this week or at very least a sub 10% attempt.

 

I Love you both whoever you are These are my thoughts EXACTLY. And I'm sorry to D&T that gave up, but that's their choice. We however, DO belive we can kill DG this week, if not, next week. For those of you that call it impossible, we have done the math too and DO NOT believe it to be impossible. It will be very, very, very difficult but we feel out DPS surpasses that of what other guilds can put out there and will be working diligently to prove that. However, what I like about this fight is it doesn't just require exceptional DPS, you need great healers, tanks, everything and everyone needs to be near perfect for the entire fight, which we have still yet to do.

 

For those of you upset at Iggy for adding them in, give him time he was likely on auto-pilot, he doesn't care who kills what bosses first, he cares who clears the place first, I'm sure he didn't give much thought to order...not speaking for him, just my guess.

 

Everyone here, including me are very opinionated about the subject, I think skipping is cheating, some (not many) don't and both views are just that, opinions. Who shows up on a spreadsheet is only one factor for who is considered the best, how you do it is another that is viewed by most people. Where you stand in peers eyes is what really matters. D&T will accept the way they're viewed cuz they have chosen their path. I will take soooo much more pride for being a guild that kills DG pre-nerf (again, I don't want it nerfed BW) without the benefit of gear from later fights. And I'm determined, along with the rest of the members of our guild, to get it done.

 

Edit: Quick add, I also dont believe D&T should be disqualified, I dont care if bosses killed this week after skipping are counted towards the spreadsheet. I don't care that they will have access to higher gear, I really don't. Giving them more gear will just put them a step closer, but IMO still not at the level of guilds such as ourselves and other top progression guilds. So it's rather irrelevant to me at this point.

Edited June 13, 2013 by odawgg

[e_nk_ay]

 

Everyone here, including me are very opinionated about the subject, I think skipping is cheating, some (not many) don't and both views are just that, opinions. Who shows up on a spreadsheet is only one factor for who is considered the best, how you do it is another that is viewed by most people. Where you stand in peers eyes is what really matters. D&T will accept the way they're viewed cuz they have chosen their path. I will take soooo much more pride for being a guild that kills DG pre-nerf (again, I don't want it nerfed BW) without the benefit of gear from later fights. And I'm determined, along with the rest of the members of our guild, to get it done.

 

Speaking for us, the only thing we "care" about is the title. Not too concerned about anything else.

 

EDIT: To be clear, getting the title killing at bosses on NiM. We've never gotten a title in any of the previous raids by doing any HM encounters.

Edited June 13, 2013 by e_nk_ay

[CoppertheBeagle]

My raid is not geared enough to try this as our ppl are in half 69's but has any1 tried a different kill order? I mean i understand it makes heirad hit like a truck but maybe that is able to be healed through in nightmare mode and if you killed kel'sara first he wouldn't do his enrage instant death beam. Also I have no idea what happens when surging chain doesn't get interrupted. This might buy ppl enough time to do more damage quicker as they are always on the boss.

 

It might also get rid of lightning field as suriging chain is like a 99 second cast.

 

I could be crazy and an idiot but I'm just curious.

 

I posted this in another forum too but i was just curious if anyone has tried this.

Edited June 13, 2013 by CoppertheBeagle

[Shandellon]

It took us 4 days of like 8-10 hours of raiding each to down Firebrand and Stormcaller 16NiM prenefr. Amost hundred attempts, way more than than thousend adrenal used. Cut every possible corner, had people knowing every single aspect of fight, perfectly timed cooldowns, even had our shadow regearing to full hp / zero mitigation. Full focus and dedication to achieve it. Kill attempt was our best 6 minutes in this game in whole 1,5 year

 

I expect same feeliing from this fight, nerfig it will ruin everything

Edited June 13, 2013 by Shandellon

[Krazy_Karl]

I'm pretty sure we got World 3rd Warstalker, so I guess we have fun when we progress?

 

A majority of DnT is made up of WoW raiders - raiders that have several US and World firsts in an MMO far, FAR more competitive than SWTOR. In that game it isn't looked down upon to skip a boss to farm later gear in order to kill the previous boss. Period.

 

You can cry about it all you want, that's fine. But you don't hold a candle to our caliber player..

 

The Gray Order was World 3rd Warstalker. I believe DnT was directly after us. But I could be wrong.

 

Regards,

KK

[AMightyKnight]

Anyone tried it with Nightmare Pilgrim buff yet?

[odawgg]

Speaking for us, the only thing we "care" about is the title. Not too concerned about anything else.

 

EDIT: To be clear, getting the title killing at bosses on NiM. We've never gotten a title in any of the previous raids by doing any HM encounters.

 

The Title is equally important to us, but is obviously not on the plate at the moment, what is on the plate is killing a ver very very difficult boss, possibly harder than getting the title after they nerf this fight. So we're focusing on the task at hand, Killing DG

[Ansalem]

The Gray Order was World 3rd Warstalker. I believe DnT was directly after us. But I could be wrong.

 

Regards,

KK

 

yeah we were World 4th. You guys posted your ss after us but the timestamp/date was before us.

 

To address the haters in this thread...

Those calling us cheaters or calling for DQ from progression thread or claiming DnT isnt on their level obviously don't know DnT, don't have a clue when it comes to mmo gaming, and need to get off their high horses now. Cya next tuesday.

[odawgg]

yeah we were World 4th. You guys posted your ss after us but the timestamp/date was before us.

 

To address the haters in this thread...

Those calling us cheaters or calling for DQ from progression thread or claiming DnT isnt on their level obviously don't know DnT, don't have a clue when it comes to mmo gaming, and need to get off their high horses now. Cya next tuesday.

 

You know I love you Dom, and I apologize for coming off as putting the guild down. I am strongly opinionated on the subject of skipping bosses and really have nothing against D&T or any of it's players, in hind sight, you can do whatever you feel is better for your guild. And I have said that I don't believe you shoud be DQ'd, and my opinion of what level your guild is compared to ours and others was strictly an opinion based on watching hours of streaming yesterday and then going in there and seeing what we could do and comparing. I was more-so just trying to explain why I no longer care what D&T decides to do when it comes to skipping bosses, nothing more.

[e_nk_ay]

You know I love you Dom, and I apologize for coming off as putting the guild down. I am strongly opinionated on the subject of skipping bosses and really have nothing against D&T or any of it's players, in hind sight, you can do whatever you feel is better for your guild. And I have said that I don't believe you shoud be DQ'd, and my opinion of what level your guild is compared to ours and others was strictly an opinion based on watching hours of streaming yesterday and then going in there and seeing what we could do and comparing. I was more-so just trying to explain why I no longer care what D&T decides to do when it comes to skipping bosses, nothing more.

 

For what it's worth, Dom has always had nice things to say about you. He swings both ways if you're also into that sort of thing (it's the 21st century, grow up prudes).

[Krazy_Karl]

yeah we were World 4th. You guys posted your ss after us but the timestamp/date was before us.

 

To address the haters in this thread...

Those calling us cheaters or calling for DQ from progression thread or claiming DnT isnt on their level obviously don't know DnT, don't have a clue when it comes to mmo gaming, and need to get off their high horses now. Cya next tuesday.

 

If the fight was feasible in current gearing, every single member of DnT and The Gray Order would have continued till we defeated it. What we were not willing to do was concede the fact that in order to beat the encounter we were going to have to adjust our composition of DPS (which meant sitting some of the best players who play lesser classes) in order to accomplish said feat.

 

We realized after getting a feel for the fight that it was impossible given our current gear, and classes.

 

The fights are supposed to be tuned for a diverse set of DPS, not for 3 Gunslinger/Snipers and 1 Sentinel/Marauder. And even with the perfect DPS composition, perfect execution, and ideal RNG, I would still venture a guess that the enrage would happen at 12-15% which surely would result in a wipe as there would still be another group of adds to spawn, and Carl Lewis sprinting one shots during the fixate.

 

Regards,

KK

[Carlenux]

The < 2hr clear is far more important than firsts.

 

As you can see, The Gray Order isn't even listed, but we did clear the fight, right around the same time as DnT.

 

Skipping or not skipping. Doesn't matter because the progression is really based on who logs on first, and given all of the bugs we are seeing, it pretty much invalidates all of the firsts.

 

I mean, let's be honest, the first group of 8 people who swapped to HM (after seeing the broken enrage timer) to move on to Operator would have gotten the first kill.

 

Regards,

KK

 

agree with most of it, but disagree with title, i mean its a bonus point, but i dont think its the most important, a title run has many variable to make it less important than first kill... group composition, time, DCs can screw u all over, unfortunate lag, even server crash (which happens often in harbringer) that can screw your title run 1 week.

 

So in my honest opinion, it just seems like you guys (people who skipped) gave up, and now finding a way to idk, gain some achievement after skipping a boss in... HALF day... half...now you gaining an unfair advantage in gear for "title runs" in fact u are gaining an unfair advantage of 3 pieces of gear (or 2) with multiple raid groups (alts) that will gear you up faster for next content, which i would disqualify as well.... because you guys are "too good" to wipe few days or week, because apparently this is a Math contest, not a game... ...

[ancksunamur]

agree with most of it, but disagree with title, i mean its a bonus point, but i dont think its the most important, a title run has many variable to make it less important than first kill... group composition, time, DCs can screw u all over, unfortunate lag, even server crash (which happens often in harbringer) that can screw your title run 1 week.

 

So in my honest opinion, it just seems like you guys (people who skipped) gave up, and now finding a way to idk, gain some achievement after skipping a boss in... HALF day... half...now you gaining an unfair advantage in gear for "title runs" in fact u are gaining an unfair advantage of 3 pieces of gear (or 2) with multiple raid groups (alts) that will gear you up faster for next content, which i would disqualify as well.... because you guys are "too good" to wipe few days or week, because apparently this is a Math contest, not a game... ...

 

It's good know am not the only GM that shut down the thought right away. Like Hatred we accept all challenges.

[TenderDeath]

If the fight was feasible in current gearing, every single member of DnT and The Gray Order would have continued till we defeated it. What we were not willing to do was concede the fact that in order to beat the encounter we were going to have to adjust our composition of DPS (which meant sitting some of the best players who play lesser classes) in order to accomplish said feat.

 

This is a very important point. Our best players were capable of clearing all previous content, always having less gear, etc.

 

We should not have to sit anyone to bark louder up a greased tree. As a point of pride, there should be a thread created for: Pre-admission-to-broken-fight-mildly-reduced-enrage-timer DG ::16m::

[JDotter]

If the fight was feasible in current gearing, every single member of DnT and The Gray Order would have continued till we defeated it. What we were not willing to do was concede the fact that in order to beat the encounter we were going to have to adjust our composition of DPS (which meant sitting some of the best players who play lesser classes) in order to accomplish said feat.

 

We realized after getting a feel for the fight that it was impossible given our current gear, and classes.

 

The fights are supposed to be tuned for a diverse set of DPS, not for 3 Gunslinger/Snipers and 1 Sentinel/Marauder. And even with the perfect DPS composition, perfect execution, and ideal RNG, I would still venture a guess that the enrage would happen at 12-15% which surely would result in a wipe as there would still be another group of adds to spawn, and Carl Lewis sprinting one shots during the fixate.

 

Regards,

KK

 

 

Venture to guess

 

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/guess

 

 

Not on the basis of believing you have perfected to the 99% the basis of the fight.

 

No need to go back and analyze each member of a raid group and how they individual can improve you just guess.

 

 

No need to run the encounter to perfection to use a large sample rather than a small sample size you can just guess.

 

Please do tell me that you have the best dps and are the best and got world zero mission reward so you are the best.

[Krazy_Karl]

agree with most of it, but disagree with title, i mean its a bonus point, but i dont think its the most important, a title run has many variable to make it less important than first kill... group composition, time, DCs can screw u all over, unfortunate lag, even server crash (which happens often in harbringer) that can screw your title run 1 week.

 

All of the above have the same effects when going for firsts. Those effects will be present regardless, so discounting the importance of the title run based on those factors is invalid.

 

So in my honest opinion, it just seems like you guys (people who skipped) gave up, and now finding a way to idk, gain some achievement after skipping a boss in... HALF day... half...now you gaining an unfair advantage in gear for "title runs" in fact u are gaining an unfair advantage of 3 pieces of gear (or 2) with multiple raid groups (alts) that will gear you up faster for next content, which i would disqualify as well.... because you guys are "too good" to wipe few days or week, because apparently this is a Math contest, not a game... ...

 

When something is broken it is not giving up. Now if someone does beat (using UW 72's) it I will eat crow and admit our math was wrong based on our combat logs and the feel we got from the fight.

 

In a game that is already floundering, it wasn't worth wasting our time on something that Bioware clearly messed up (I mean let's look at their track record). Many of us took off/called off work for the patch because we were excited.

 

And to be honest, we had room for improvement on our best runs at DG, but when we saw the enrage timer those few times we all just laughed at how ridiculous it was. We then told DnT what we experienced, and two pulls later after discussions with them we came to the consensus that it was broken and we wanted to see if the rest of the instance was as well.

 

We actually went back in with alts to clear it again, so as to preserve our lockouts on our mains just in case it is patched this week. If there is not a patch by Friday, we will go back in and clear with our mains bypassing DG.

 

Regards,

KK

[Ansalem]

pizza I'll always love you you are my one true addiction...

 

Also, I'm getting fed up with people hiding behind this false sentiment of "honor" and using it as a shield against the fact that they simply couldn't make the hard decision to progress rather than waste their time, the time of their guild, and their resources in a futile attempt. There is more honor in admitting you are wrong about a fight like I was with DG and moving on to progress instead of stubbornly slamming your head against a wall in an encounter that cannot be cleared in its current setup because BW didn't bother to test an enrage timer properly. Say what you will about the fight and the decisions made, but don't be petty and try to hide behind the shield of honor when you are wrong.