Terror From Beyond (NiM) 8-Man Progression Tracking

[Hardcora]

Death and Taxes

dtguilds.com

Prophecy of the Five

USA - East

Operator 9 Nightmare

http://files.enjin.com.s3.amazonaws.com/227810/module_gallery/original/1281672.jpg

 

We killed HM DG and moved on with our lives. Fight is tuned well, wiped to Kephess @ 4% so both fights aren't throwing insane enrage timers at you but have a couple new mechanics. If you want to count at discounted points that's fine (a la wowprogress.com), or not count it at all.

 

Good luck to everyone who decides to keep trying DG this week.

 

Good idea! Vote for remove Death and Taxes from the ranking. Skipping is cheating!!!

[Aurojiin]

This...Be honest with yourselves, don't skip ahead, it's cheating and no fun IMO

I find this bizarrely irrelevant. Since when are we determining what people find "fun", exactly?

[Kateho]

HOW TO BEAT DG

 

Best guilds can start farming TWH, Op IX and Kephess (just skip DG with Hardmode).

 

Best try so far was 28% enrage, which is about 10% of the entire fight. So, theoretically, Gear 75 given by TWH, Op and Kephess should make it in a few weeks. You can use rerolls to collect more 75 stuff.

 

Otherwise, Scum and Villainy will be released in a month. You will farm there what is "farmable".

 

Then the DG will fall.

 

If it still doesn't die in a month and a half, Bioware might think about adding 15 sec before enrage every week until it is downed.

 

It is mathematically possible.

 

THANK YOU BIOWARE ! This is a real race. A good race for this summer.

DO NOT NERF IT, PLEASE !

[ckoneful]

Is it at all possible they don't expect you to beat DG without more gear? Sounds like a purposeful gear wall. Farm the other 4, and S&V when it comes out for gear and it'll topple without needing nerfs and you get the actually hard content you've been crying for for a year.

 

Or do you not want something that's hard?

[e_nk_ay]

So if no body kills DG this week, are you guys to swap to HM then do the rest Nightmare or keep banging your heads against the encounter? If you do what we did on a Monday instead of yesterday because we didn't want to waste our time, are we still "cheaters"?

 

This is a pretty petty argument. Where does it say progression is killing bosses in order? Does anyone remember Naxxramas 40 man? Different guilds went different routes and claimed firsts all the same. Skipping bosses has been in MMOs since WoW 2006, end of story.

 

If you don't want to count it now, fine. But come Monday if everyone does what we did, then get off your high horse. It's a game, we killed a boss first, and we're farming loot THAT WE HAVE LEGITIMATE ACCESS TO in order to improve our raiding roster. This isn't some sort of exploit, some of you guys are extremely petty.

[Krewel]

And this is exactly why they need to separate the HM/NiM lockouts. Such a silly game, maybe Bioware will learn in 5 years ... maybe

[Koordynator]

And this is exactly why they need to separate the HM/NiM lockouts.

 

^ this. One lockout for HM/NIM was usefull when EV and KP dropped Rakata in both HM and NIM. Now we have different Tiers of gear for HM and NIM. One lockout for both this levels is wrong.

 

About the ranking. No point in allowing guild which skipped DG to take part in it. They can farm gear from other bosses and make the dps difference that way.

 

Last boss of EC NIM 16man was "impossible" too for most of you. As we saw thanks to ACE, it wasn't.

Edited June 13, 2013 by Koordynator

[Ardarell_Solo]

No skipping whatsoever, ESPECIALLY not to farm gear from later bosses. That'd be the exact opposite of progression.

[e_nk_ay]

No skipping whatsoever, ESPECIALLY not to farm gear from later bosses. That'd be the exact opposite of progression.

 

Is this your first MMO? Because hard-core progression raiding in the biggest MMO on the planet (WoW) has worked this way for years. Just this last tier several guilds skipped Durumu to farm gear on the next 3 bosses and he actually died a couple weeks after, despite being earlier in the instance. That community doesn't bat an eye. Yet here we have people screaming bloody murder, hilarious.

[e_nk_ay]

http://www.wowprogress.com/rating.tier15_25

 

Just a quick link. Bottom left has the kill count for all the bosses currently - notice that the 7th and 9th bosses in that instance have LESS kills than the 8th, 10th, and 11th. Its been around for years, and I'm having trouble wrapping my head around why people are so upset here.

 

WoWProgress gives points for those that skipped, but at a discount, and doesn't provide the full points until the boss prior (the one that was skipped) is killed. That's a great system that has worked for that website for years.

Edited June 13, 2013 by e_nk_ay

[Koordynator]

http://www.wowprogress.com/rating.tier15_25

 

Just a quick link. Bottom left has the kill count for all the bosses currently - notice that the 7th and 9th bosses in that instance have LESS kills than the 8th, 9th, and 10th. Its been around for years, and I'm having trouble wrapping my head around why people are so upset here.

 

WoWProgress gives points for those that skipped, but at a discount, and doesn't provide the full points until the boss prior (the one that was skipped) is killed. That's a great system that has worked for that website for years.

 

No, sorry, banned. Cheating sux : (

[namesaretough]

I'm having trouble wrapping my head around why people are so upset here.

 

I just think it's funny this is exactly what dom was trying to make sure wouldn't happen a few pages ago. Division in the ranks!

[Synavix]

As someone who doesn't really follow any of this nor really cares, I can't really tell if people are joking or not. A boss kill is a boss kill. Obviously skipping a boss means that you are missing out on the world first clear (at least for that week), but that doesn't mean no other kills matter. If a group feels the need to skip an encounter and miss out on any more attempts at it this week, that's a choice. It's well within what's allowed in the game, there's no type of exploit or anything involved.

 

You can look at it as farming gear for an earlier fight, but you can also look at it as them doing later fights with less gear than expected. All the same in the end. Progression firsts are rarely about gear, anyway. More often than not they're simply about who executes the best first, since gear is usually pretty close to on par for everyone.

[mastirkal]

As someone who doesn't really follow any of this nor really cares, I can't really tell if people are joking or not. A boss kill is a boss kill. Obviously skipping a boss means that you are missing out on the world first clear (at least for that week), but that doesn't mean no other kills matter. If a group feels the need to skip an encounter and miss out on any more attempts at it this week, that's a choice. It's well within what's allowed in the game, there's no type of exploit or anything involved.

 

You can look at it as farming gear for an earlier fight, but you can also look at it as them doing later fights with less gear than expected. All the same in the end. Progression firsts are rarely about gear, anyway. More often than not they're simply about who executes the best first, since gear is usually pretty close to on par for everyone.

 

The problem is going into an ops and clearing out the final three bosses only to come back to the second one a week later and count that as the final of your progression. At the moment. TfB is bugged so this is impossible, but it is a precedent that I hope no one wants to set.

 

Death and taxes are fine, They should not get credit for kills this week after DG because they cheesed that fight, but they shouldn't be punished for doing so. No one is going to beat it and if they do, I doubt it was meant to happen. I mean the game is supposed to be geared for full 72 with ANY group composition. As it is, you need four snipers to roll through lightning field just to beat it and even then I don't think it's enough. It's bugged, the enrage or the HP need to be nerfed. Hopefully the sooner, because I don't mind the higher healthpool.

[Ardarell_Solo]

Because hard-core progression raiding in the biggest MMO on the planet (WoW) has worked this way for years. Just this last tier several guilds skipped Durumu to farm gear on the next 3 bosses and he actually died a couple weeks after, despite being earlier in the instance. That community doesn't bat an eye. Yet here we have people screaming bloody murder, hilarious.

 

Hey, hey slow down a bit, nobody's screaming - and even less so anything bout bloody murder :-)

 

I don't care about WOW, I like the way progress has worked in SWTOR so far. And so far they've taken the word "progression" literally, meaning moving forward continuously in one direction, step by step. Though one may not totally agree with BW's item design, they managed for every boss to drop the gear you needed for the next step of diffictulty, basically.

 

If you ask 100 people if they'd rather design a difficult task by increasing the challenge step by step as opposed to having a barrier in the middle, then 95 people (probably those who haven't been progress raiding in WOW ;-) would go for "make it climactical!"...

[Leylea]

I understand the reason, why some guilds thought about skipping the boss and the argumentation with the loot and further the chance to kill DG without any nerf by farming the other bosses. And the way BW decide to handle the lookouts with HC and Nim could be a reason, why DG is so hard ... because they really intended guilds to go this way.

 

But all these arguments dont change the fact, that this progression is a community driven thing and IF u would have been read this thread and would have been followed the last progressions, u would have known that this is not the way were are going here.

 

There is a straight killorder in SW:TOR considered by the rising score (in this ranking) u get for killing the bosses ... it is totally obvious, that the ranking doesnt allow skipping bosses.

 

If u wanna change the community agreement due to the reason u listed it is totally ok, but u cant decide it on ur own and then wanna be listed here.

 

IF guilds are listed here, which where skipping bosses, our guild will probably retire from this progression list and start another community based one.

[FridgeLM]

IF guilds are listed here, which where skipping bosses, our guild will probably retire from this progression list and start another community based one.

 

Or you could just admit Bioware made a mistake and skip a boss I'm confident nobody will beat without an enrage timer extension or very significant gear upgrades. We didn't do anything you're not perfectly capable of doing, unless you're worried you can't kill Operator.

[e_nk_ay]

I wish SWTOR had an armory or an API we could pull from. I've played since launch and during that time there have been probably 9-12 websites/forum threads to track progression. Each fails because a) not everyone cares to post and b) it isn't perfect because each thread has different rules to what they consider "legit". A proper "kill order", to me, is pretty inane. I've never dealt that way in any MMO, dating back to bosskillers.com for WoW in 2006.

 

If that's how this thread wants to run it, fine, but we'll probably stop participating and take comfort in the fact knowing we're still killing bosses and getting loot in a completely acceptable manner.

 

At the end of the day the 2 hour titles are > all this, anyway. OP, feel free to comment on what you want to do since it's your progression thread.

[Arahakust]

I have always been under the impression that progression should be linear, needing to over come one obstacle first to unlock the next one no matter how hard or easy it may be. In no way am I attempting to detract from what other guilds have done, as I think it's impressive they were able to do the other encounters. However, there is a strict difference between content of SWTOR and WoW and is unfair to judge the both of them side by side. WoW raids were certainly more based upon quantity, providing many bosses normally in a single instance and multiple routes for you to take; you were free to choose which ones to do whenever you wanted. Seeing as how there are so few actual bosses in SWTOR, it just seems silly to skip over any bosses regardless of difficulty.

 

In the end, I would not be terribly bothered if the decision went either way as long as it remains constant from now on. Just a note though, it would seem being able to skip would benefit large guilds. I have 5-6 able bodied groups that I could just tell to skip to different bosses and potentially claim all the later kills...just doesn't seem right to me though.

[e_nk_ay]

In the end, I would not be terribly bothered if the decision went either way as long as it remains constant from now on. Just a note though, it would seem being able to skip would benefit large guilds. I have 5-6 able bodied groups that I could just tell to skip to different bosses and potentially claim all the later kills...just doesn't seem right to me though.

 

Maybe that's where we disagree in our philosophies. Having been apart of as many firsts as I have in the raiding community, I say use whatever you have at your disposal to your advantage (short of blatant exploits). You being able to field 5-6 raids is no different, in my mind, than a guild being able to log on at 11 AM to clear content first versus the guild that had to wait for people to get home. Use the tools that you have.

[Ardarell_Solo]

I have always been under the impression that progression should be linear, needing to over come one obstacle first to unlock the next one no matter how hard or easy it may be. In no way am I attempting to detract from what other guilds have done, as I think it's impressive they were able to do the other encounters. However, there is a strict difference between content of SWTOR and WoW and is unfair to judge the both of them side by side. WoW raids were certainly more based upon quantity, providing many bosses normally in a single instance and multiple routes for you to take; you were free to choose which ones to do whenever you wanted. Seeing as how there are so few actual bosses in SWTOR, it just seems silly to skip over any bosses regardless of difficulty.

 

In the end, I would not be terribly bothered if the decision went either way as long as it remains constant from now on. Just a note though, it would seem being able to skip would benefit large guilds. I have 5-6 able bodied groups that I could just tell to skip to different bosses and potentially claim all the later kills...just doesn't seem right to me though.

 

*signed*

[e_nk_ay]

Looking at the original document, looks like the OP gave us points for Operator.

 

EDIT: As I stated earlier, I am fine with giving guilds discounted points until the skipped encounter is killed.

Edited June 13, 2013 by e_nk_ay

[Khevar]

I recorded your kill and converted the time on your achievement to UTC so that it didn't screw up the spreadsheet. For future kills please ensure your screenshots include the UTC time stamp to be verified. Instructions are in the original post in this thread.

Oops, sorry about that. I'll be sure to do it correctly next time.

 

Our group has been holding off on skipping DG in case the verdict was that would invalidate a progression run. What's your take on it?

Edited June 13, 2013 by Khevar

[RikuvonDrake]

No one is looking down on Death and Taxes for admitting that they won't be able to kill the 2nd boss with their current setup/gear, I am sure my own guild and many more will understand this during the last part of reset-week. However, Death and Taxes kills will not count as worldfirst nor will their "clear" count as the worldfirst clear, they have killed the last three bosses, but not worldfirst.

 

In the SWTOR Raiding Community, the progression is liner, back in the days, some guilds killed Firebrand/Stormcaller on Hardmode and then returned for Colonel Vorgath on Nightmare, however their kills didn't count as progression nor worldfirst. I am sure that when Bioware either nerfs the 2nd boss in TFB or we get enough gear to handle the DPS issues we will get the rest of the worldfirst.

 

What I am trying to say is that even thought Death and Taxes have killed all bosses (2nd on HM) only the first kill is an official "progression" kill, when the 2nd boss goes down for Death and Taxes on Nightmare mode, your next three kills will count as progression. But right now it is only "gearkills".

 

Edit: I am also very disappointment in Iggyemu from SuckaFish for acccepting skipping bosses and counting in guilds as progression, I thought this would be a good progression thread with SuckaFish Officers leading it, but I guess still waters run deep.

Edited June 13, 2013 by RikuvonDrake

[Krazy_Karl]

The < 2hr clear is far more important than firsts.

 

As you can see, The Gray Order isn't even listed, but we did clear the fight, right around the same time as DnT.

 

Skipping or not skipping. Doesn't matter because the progression is really based on who logs on first, and given all of the bugs we are seeing, it pretty much invalidates all of the firsts.

 

I mean, let's be honest, the first group of 8 people who swapped to HM (after seeing the broken enrage timer) to move on to Operator would have gotten the first kill.

 

Regards,

KK