e_nk_ay Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 Which word exactly in the sentence "This is not another MMO" don't you understand? I want someone to explain to me why skipping bosses is okay in one community - that is much larger and more active than SWTOR - but not okay in another? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ML_DoubleTap Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 Dom voiced his opinion but majority ruled and we moved on with our lives. Last time I'll say it and I'm out until we kill Kephess tonight, I stated with my post that contained the SS of Operator what we did and that it could be counted however the OP saw fit. That's fine but he posted here and attempted to set the precendent you then broke. You don't see the underhandedness there? Telling other guilds it shouldn't count, and then being the first to do so and arguing it counts? Granted, it's a brilliant strategy to get progression points, its just not that honest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mastirkal Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 (edited) I don't respect this thread as the unofficial official NiM TfB progression thread if we are allowing skipping to count as progression. To go ahead and get gear from later bosses is fine. You shouldn't get credit though because its the same thing as cheating by skipping a boss fight. I can only hope suckafish doesn't take death and taxes run as official by skipping a boss. If they want credit tey should wait like everyone else or just take their loot and wait for a hot fix to make it linear progression. Edited June 13, 2013 by mastirkal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lendish Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 (edited) Please return to your beloved WoW you're talking about the whole time Edited June 13, 2013 by Lendish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heidy Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 Hey folks, just wanted to give our (Revenge – T3-M4) opinion on skipping bosses. We were shocked to see that you included D&T’s Operator IX kill in the progression sheet. Especially after Ansalem of D&T required as the first one to NOT skip bosses (when they were afraid to be the ones to loose the subsequent first-kills) Not trying to troll here, but I do have a request. Can we make sure guilds arent setting to HM for DG to get by then going in and killing Op,keph,terror in nightmare to claim firsts? and Pizza, as one of the organizers, wrote 5min after that that skipping shouldn’t be allowed. need to show all achievements, each boss, snapshot etc. We think that progression shouldn’t be done with skipping a boss just because you are convinced there is no way to beat that boss or you simply aren’t able to kill it. If there will be no rules against boss skipping with the right verification (Achievment-Screen showing that all other bosses are still undefeated when killing DG) we will retreat from this progress and hope that all other true progress guildes follow this move. I talked with some of the progress guilds from our server like First Try and Ambassadors and they all share this opinion. If you want to skip a boss to get gear you are free to do so, but DON’T start to claim any fame or first-kills for subsequent bosses. You can try to whine and shout for nerfs, try to convice everyone that is isn’t possible, but there ARE guilds that will work on this boss and we want to have a progression free of your lame boss-skipping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thufir_Hawat Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 You can cry about it all you want, that's fine. But you don't hold a candle to our caliber player.. Yet a couple hours of Dreadguards and you throw in the towel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e_nk_ay Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 If you want to skip a boss to get gear you are free to do so, but DON’T start to claim any fame or first-kills for subsequent bosses. You can try to whine and shout for nerfs, try to convice everyone that is isn’t possible, but there ARE guilds that will work on this boss and we want to have a progression free of your lame boss-skipping. If we killed the boss first, we killed the boss first. I don't agree with this whole "linear" progression idea. If we kill TFB tonight then it was NOT a full clear, I agree 100%. But the bosses that we downed, we still downed, and if anything were more difficult because we didn't receive our beloved relics from DG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardarell_Solo Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 I want someone to explain to me why skipping bosses is okay in one community - that is much larger and more active than SWTOR - but not okay in another? Because it is the very nature of a community that it sets its own rules based on how the majority of members of said community itself see things. (Aside: That's what's so appealing about them to me, because they are probably one of the most democratic entities on the planet - with all pros and cons of democratic principles themselves. ) Case in point: You can't override a community's self given rules on the ground of rules that may apply elsewhere. That's the exaxct definition of a self governed community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mastirkal Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 Hey if it comes down to it, there might be two NiM TfB progression threads, one that allows skipping an one that doesn't. We might have a unprecedented two world firsts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wojtekimiolczyk Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 If u skip one boss the progression shouldnt count, my 2 cents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ancksunamur Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 Hey folks, just wanted to give our (Revenge – T3-M4) o We were shocked to see that you included D&T’s Operator IX kill in the progression sheet. We think that progression shouldn’t be done with skipping a boss just because you are convinced there is no way to beat that boss or you simply aren’t able to kill it. If there will be no rules against boss skipping with the right verification (Achievment-Screen showing that all other bosses are still undefeated when killing DG) we will retreat from this progress and hope that all other true progress guildes follow this move. I talked with some of the progress guilds from our server like First Try and Ambassadors and they all share this opinion. If you want to skip a boss to get gear you are free to do so, but DON’T start to claim any fame or first-kills for subsequent bosses. You can try to whine and shout for nerfs, try to convice everyone that is isn’t possible, but there ARE guilds that will work on this boss and we want to have a progression free of your lame boss-skipping. I agree with this 100%. The idea is to clear the raid progressively that's 1 after another. Not to leap frog your way through it. Why didn't people skip tanks in EC NiM and just go do mine field then? It's stupid, we all complained that we haven't been given a challenge. Well here it is lets buck up and take it. We got it to 28% last night and still feel that we could of done better on the fight, and will be right back at it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bombbuster Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 (edited) ...WoW raiders - raiders that have several US and World firsts in an MMO far, FAR more competitive than SWTOR. In that game it isn't looked down upon to skip a boss to farm later gear in order to kill the previous boss.In most WoW raids bosses can be killed in differing orders except for (typically) the first and last bosses. ICC, Firelands, and BWD all come to mind as examples. This is different because in TFB the bosses are linear. I'm not saying that what you guys did was wrong or right, but don't use comparisons to WoW to justify it one way or the other. That aside, good luck tonight with TFB NiM. I'll wager he has the PTS bug where his health sometimes jumps up to 32% when tantrum hits, instead of 20%. Let us know how it goes, we'll likely be attempting after the weekend. Edit: Also wanted to add, don't direct your ire at each other. Blame Bioware for screwing this up royally and putting us all in this untenable position. None of this drama would exist if B/W had done their jobs right. I just hope they speak out and explain themselves before subs start leaving to do something less frustrating with their valuable time. Edited June 13, 2013 by Bombbuster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeLM Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 Try to explain whatever you want. Everydody is laughing about you. You skipped a boss because you hadn't the balls to beat the previous. Simply stay out of the progress threads. You are fun-guild not a progress guild. Nobody whose opinion matters is doing anything of the sort. From my perspective, the people who are upset about this are people who didn't have the stones to make the same judgment call we did, and now they've missed their opportunity to compete with us (for one boss). By all means, feel free to continue beating your heads into the wall until the 11th hour on Monday when you'll have less time to do bosses that are actually killable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thufir_Hawat Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 Nobody whose opinion matters is doing anything of the sort. From my perspective, the people who are upset about this are people who didn't have the stones to make the same judgment call we did, and now they've missed their opportunity to compete with us (for one boss). By all means, feel free to continue beating your heads into the wall until the 11th hour on Monday when you'll have less time to do bosses that are actually killable. No they are the people who listened to the little voice in the head that said 'no jumping ahead is giving up'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeLM Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 No they are the people who listened to the little voice in the head that said 'no jumping ahead is giving up'. The little voice in their head is not rational. The boss is very much broken and time would be better spent in almost any other endeavor. We chose to spend it by progressing through things that are killable - something they were perfectly capable of doing themselves, but chose not to out of fear. That could be fear of offending the "honorable" scene on display in this thread, fear that a sudden hotfix for the fight would be inbound, or, least sympathetically, fear that the boss in its current state is doable. We judged that it was not. You could have too, but you decided instead to run a race on a hamster wheel. Your loss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iworet Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 Actually we considered skipping the boss rather early, but decided against it because it is against our view of progression. We had our first 50% enrage in our third try iirc. You simply wanted to be first, no matter what, and at last streched (in my opinion simply breaking it) the rules stated here in Pizza's post. Now you try to defend your decision in a very arrogant course, not making your guild any more likeable... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solar_Breeze Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 Well imo the instance cannot be counted as a clear if it was skipped, perhaps the race should be 'Whoever downs the 2nd boss first' not whoever clears the instance now that we see what the fight is like. I hope they don't change it, its nice to have a challenge in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RakeshZeal Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 The little voice in their head is not rational. The boss is very much broken and time would be better spent in almost any other endeavor. We chose to spend it by progressing through things that are killable - something they were perfectly capable of doing themselves, but chose not to out of fear. That could be fear of offending the "honorable" scene on display in this thread, fear that a sudden hotfix for the fight would be inbound, or, least sympathetically, fear that the boss in its current state is doable. We judged that it was not. You could have too, but you decided instead to run a race on a hamster wheel. Your loss. So basiclly you guys are disquilified or there is no race. Big whoop! What is important is the fact we have brought attention to the fact we need to seperate out hm and nim timers. Good Job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardarell_Solo Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 Actually we considered skipping the boss rather early, but decided against it because it is against our view of progression. We had our first 50% enrage in our third try iirc. You simply wanted to be first, no matter what, and at last streched (in my opinion simply breaking it) the rules stated here in Pizza's post. Now you try to defend your decision in a very arrogant course, not making your guild any more likeable... Exactly. Especially the last bit of it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e_nk_ay Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 In most WoW raids bosses can be killed in differing orders except for (typically) the first and last bosses. ICC, Firelands, and BWD all come to mind as examples. This is different because in TFB the bosses are linear. I'm not saying that what you guys did was wrong or right, but don't use comparisons to WoW to justify it one way or the other. Just FYI, every raid (there have been 5-6) in the newest expack of WoW has been linear, with the world's best guilds skipping certain bosses to move on. We can drop the comparison, but your point is incorrect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtangtan Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 Would love to see someone down the 2nd boss and correct the rest of us who decided to skip it. Otherwise, you are yapping about your own failures and lack of senses. Have fun wasting repair bills while the rest of us gear up by skipping a over-tuned/broken boss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e_nk_ay Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 We didn't care about killing the 3rd or 4th boss in that instance first - remove the points if you want, it doesn't matter. This thread doesn't even capture every raiding guild on the scene (but thank you to Iggy for putting it together). What I want to know is, what will people do come Monday night if DG isn't killed? The way I see it is, you either 1) miss out on loot and learning new mechanics for the next couple fights (there are new mechanics, it isn't the same as PTS) or 2) you continue to not kill DG until it is nerfed. Those are, as far as I see it, the 2 options. Pick for yourselves, but Option 3 "Kill DGs in its current form" is not possible, in my opinion, without farming gear from the rest of the instance (and maybe not even then). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeLM Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 Actually we considered skipping the boss rather early, but decided against it because it is against our view of progression. We had our first 50% enrage in our third try iirc. That could be fear of offending the "honorable" scene You simply wanted to be first, no matter what, Thanks for assigning our motivations to us. I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter so I know what I'm going to have for dinner this evening. Now you try to defend your decision in a very arrogant course, not making your guild any more likeable... My position needs no defense. We killed Operator IX before you. You're not going to kill the Dread Guards. In the end you will follow our path or waste your lockout. What is important is the fact we have brought attention to the fact we need to seperate out hm and nim timers. This would be fine with me in a game with no obviously broken bosses. We're competing in the game as it exists right now, not what it could be as an ideal. As a result, judgment calls like the one we made factor in to the competition. I'm sorry but I think you made the wrong one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TenderDeath Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 Actually we considered skipping the boss rather early, but decided against it because it is against our view of progression. We had our first 50% enrage in our third try iirc. You simply wanted to be first, no matter what, and at last streched (in my opinion simply breaking it) the rules stated here in Pizza's post. Now you try to defend your decision in a very arrogant course, not making your guild any more likeable... It was a hard choice to make. Though, I can guarantee you that the general consensus in DnT was to go beyond the DG to see if the balance of the other fights was different/same as DG. Turns out the other fights are night and day. Before you listen to Dominion, a known troll, about anything, know that we did not go into the fights saying, "OMG we are going to be first, lawlalawlalwl", the stream is up to prove that we chose to use our time wisely in the least braggadocious manner. The main purpose for posting the kill was to inform everyone with, yet more, data that the DG fight is broken. Not to be first. That is something we believe BW took from this release. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mastirkal Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 (edited) Just FYI, every raid (there have been 5-6) in the newest expack of WoW has been linear, with the world's best guilds skipping certain bosses to move on. We can drop the comparison, but your point is incorrect. No one respects your kill. Literally I haven't seen anyone outside of DaT fight for your guys' argument. No one seems to respect it and most feel that you should have to progress linearly, so why are you fighting the comunity consensus that it's not valid? Tiggs will have to speak for himself as to why he feelsyour kill is valid, but he has enough pages to see it was not popular decision to make in a comunity thread. He dicided to be the judge of the progression thread and he can easily be decided to be unfit if he doesn't appeal to outside opinion on the matter. Edited June 13, 2013 by mastirkal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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