awesome job bioware for caving to the l33t stun loving pvpers

[Pistols]

I've read most (probably all) several times. Feel free to toss out your top 5 points. How about just your top 3 PvP breaking points that the proposed change would force onto the game?

 

Let me predict your "Forum Warrior" response to try to "Stun lock" me on the forum.. You'll either a. - Come back with some short poorly thought out response that insults me, or b. - Cite some poor example from page 22 of a thread that no one cares about, or c. - Make some debasing and insulting comment about "LOL noob I PvP all day everyday L2P I'm more 1337 than you LOL k bai."

 

Like I said. Make your case, admit I'm right, or just be silent.

 

Thanks.

 

From Page 1, which you obviously didn't read:

 

If you understood why their idea was overall bad for PvP, you'd know better than to blame others.

 

Nobody is against reducing controlling effects in PvP than we have currently, but if not done correctly, the ramifications are disastrous in WZ's. Currently there is a command in-game to allow anyone to "insta die" and spawn, which essentially allows anyone to "reset" their stun break at any given time (2 min CD as well, so hypothetically 4-5 times per match). This would break PvP in the Ranked aspect, and even be abused in the Regular WZ's. I won't even touch on how that "idea" would work with certain classes, but that would literally gimp a few.

 

I'm all for the reduction and a change to how the system works, but to be quite frank, the way the system was Pre 1.4 was just fine and it needs to return. If they revert back to that change, players would see much less control over their character, all the while making their CC break even more useful. It's not about "l33t stun loving pvpers" as you call it, but by the same token you NEED to have CC in the game with how the WZ's currently work. Resetting your breaker upon each death is not the answer, especially when combined with the abuse of /stuck.

 

The 1.4 Change (below)

 

PvP

 

General

 

1. The Resolve system has been adjusted in the following ways:
   

1. When a player becomes immune to control due to Resolve, his Resolve meter will not start decaying until after all the current controlling effects expire (instead of decaying immediately after the immunity begins).
   

1. Players under the effects of a control ability now build less Resolve for other control abilities that target them. The exact amount of Resolve the player builds is based on the time remaining on the ability currently controlling the player and the relative strength of that ability's effect. If two stuns of similar strength (such as Electrocute and Debilitate) target a single player at the same time, the second ability would generate very little Resolve. However, if the two effects were applied so that the duration of their effects overlapped very little, each effect would grant its full (or nearly full) Resolve to the target.
   

 

Also above, a legitimate way to help fix (to a large degree) the Resolve issue, couple that with a few tweaks to stuns, and the system will be fine.

 

Cheers.

[Pistols]

Stuns have no place in PvP in my opinion.

 

This is why I don't take your posts seriously, you have no idea how PvP functions in TOR.

 

[Kilora]

This is why I don't take your posts seriously, you have no idea how PvP functions .

 

 

Fixed that for ya. :-D

[Mharz]

Yes. They. Do.

 

 

When people say this I question if they have ever stepped foot in a warzone.

 

I can assure you I have and I've yet to see an instance where focused DPS, healing, strats, or plain heads up thinking can't replace a stun.

 

Sorry, difference of opinion but I think the game would be remarkably better if there were ZERO stuns in PvP. Slows, okay, roots, maybe.

 

All that said, I'm aware my opinion isn't likely to be one adopted by everyone so I would be totally fine with some VERY steep stun change like, 100% damage reduction while stunned, or complete CC immunity for 5 minutes if you're stunned. Again, that's just my opinion and I know it's not super popular, but I like to actually play the game not sit around and be stunned. Ever.

[Kilora]

I can assure you I have and I've yet to see an instance where focused DPS, healing, strats, or plain heads up thinking can't replace a stun.

 

Sorry, difference of opinion but I think the game would be remarkably better if there were ZERO stuns in PvP. Slows, okay, roots, maybe.

 

All that said, I'm aware my opinion isn't likely to be one adopted by everyone so I would be totally fine with some VERY steep stun change like, 100% damage reduction while stunned, or complete CC immunity for 5 minutes if you're stunned. Again, that's just my opinion and I know it's not super popular, but I like to actually play the game not sit around and be stunned. Ever.

 

And if they removed stun -- guess what?

 

They'd have to completely redesign many of the classes. As it would throw class balance wildly out of control.

 

AND -- it would screw up PvE.

[cycao]

I can assure you I have and I've yet to see an instance where focused DPS, healing, strats, or plain heads up thinking can't replace a stun.

 

Sorry, difference of opinion but I think the game would be remarkably better if there were ZERO stuns in PvP. Slows, okay, roots, maybe.

 

All that said, I'm aware my opinion isn't likely to be one adopted by everyone so I would be totally fine with some VERY steep stun change like, 100% damage reduction while stunned, or complete CC immunity for 5 minutes if you're stunned. Again, that's just my opinion and I know it's not super popular, but I like to actually play the game not sit around and be stunned. Ever.

 

Some class rely on stuns (deception sins, concel ops) so those two classes would be hurting bad if you remove stuns. Healers are powerful atm, not op but very strong, you would need to overhaul how healing and interrupts work if you cannot stop a healer from doing any actions for 4-8 seconds. Melee would run a train on range, no roots or snares would prevent that from happening. Capping objectives and stopping the huttball would be next to impossible against teams who know whats up.

 

*edit* Every single class ac and skill tree would have to be completely redone to accomplish a stun free warzone, not to mention how objectives work.

 

 

Dude, come on man.

Edited June 6, 2013 by cycao

[Mharz]

This is why I don't take your posts seriously, you have no idea how PvP functions in TOR.

 

 

I absolutely do understand how PvP functions. I just don't like it and think it makes for a poor gaming experience.

 

Good post by the way, I'm surprised you actually spent the time. +1.

 

As for your points:

 

1. I did read page 1. Did you read my post? /stuck is broken. It's been broken for a long time. If you PvP you know this. Why hasn't it been fixed? Why haven't any of the suggestions I posed or many other good ones posted all over these forums been implemented to correct the /stuck exploit?

 

2. I completely agree that 1.4 was less broken than the system is now. The changes made the resolve bar fill too slow and removed the "stun it all" penalty.

 

So what it comes down to, basically, is that you believe, as I do, that the /stuck exploit in addition to the proposed change will make ranked games exploitable. I think we agree on that. My solution is to fix the /stuck problem/exploit and make the change to reset the CC breaker on death.

 

In addition, tweak Resolve in some way (pre-1.4 or some other way) to make less control happen in PvP. We agree on that as well.

 

What we don't agree on and I think most people won't agree with me, is that Stuns have no place in PvP. Stuns, to me are cheap, easy, ZERO skill moves that give you an advantage. Mezzes I'm not so against. Roots, not so bad. Slows acceptable. And I'm perfectly okay with being the guy that champions a ZERO stun PvP environment. In fact, if you know a good game where there aren't stuns in PvP and can suggest it, I will unsub today and go there to play.

 

Finally, I asked for 3 things that will break in PvP. You listed one (/stuck) which in my opinion is a bug that the dev team should have come to terms with months ago and fixed.

 

Would you like to list two more please?

[Mharz]

Some class rely on stuns (deception sins, concel ops) so those two classes would be hurting bad if you remove stuns. Healers are powerful atm, not op but very strong, you would need to overhaul how healing and interrupts work if you cannot stop a healer from doing any actions for 4-8 seconds. Melee would run a train on range, no roots or snares would prevent that from happening. Capping objectives and stopping the huttball would be next to impossible against teams who know whats up.

 

*edit* Every single class ac and skill tree would have to be completely redone to accomplish a stun free warzone, not to mention how objectives work.

 

 

Dude, come on man.

 

You misunderstand. I'm not saying remove stuns. I'm saying make the use of stuns, in WZs, so painful that you want to do it only as a last resort and that if you have to do it you will never be able to kill the person you stunned.

 

Don't redesign classes.

 

Just add a stun buff. Stunned: Player is stunned and takes 100% less damage for 8 seconds. (or whatever the length of the stun). Make Stuns break on damage (ie make stuns on players mezzes) or make stuns break after a certain percentage of total health is taken as damage.

 

All these things are simple fixes and would work perfectly in tandem or as individual solutions.

[TUXs]

Hey TUXs, I just wanted to address this point, and I think sometimes the serious pvp'ers who don't pve much may miss how many tools we use in pve. Changes to resolve aren't an issue, but the cc break, taking less damage while cc'd - yeah, those absolutely will affect pve. There are plenty of times when you get stunned in pve and have to judge when or if to use your stun break and mitigate taking damage while stunned (bonus boss in Hammer Station is an easy example). Ccs, both casting and breaking, are absolutely a part of pve, and if they're going to make a general change to them it will affect pve.

 

Now, if you were going to say take less damage *from players* while stunned then I could see that one not affecting pve. Just my two cents, and I'll leave the advanced pvp strategizing to the experts

 

Contrary to what you may think, I PvE quite a bit too. I'll typically do 5-10 wz's and an Ops at night...I tried to phrase my reply to make sure I didn't miss the fact the NPCs in PvE toss out stuns like candy these days. None of the changes would "negatively" effect PvE...they'd have an impact, but imo, it would be a very positive one as I hate the trash mobs CC'ing me as much as I hate the CC's in PvP.

 

If they could make it so that the damage reduction was only from other players, that would be IDEAL!!! No matter what change they make, it would have either no impact on PvE, or a positive (imo) impact.

[iamthehoyden]

Contrary to what you may think, I PvE quite a bit too. I'll typically do 5-10 wz's and an Ops at night...I tried to phrase my reply to make sure I didn't miss the fact the NPCs in PvE toss out stuns like candy these days. None of the changes would "negatively" effect PvE...they'd have an impact, but imo, it would be a very positive one as I hate the trash mobs CC'ing me as much as I hate the CC's in PvP.

 

If they could make it so that the damage reduction was only from other players, that would be IDEAL!!! No matter what change they make, it would have either no impact on PvE, or a positive (imo) impact.

I see what you're saying. My opinion is that making an encounter easier by making it easier to escape a stun isn't necessarily a positive. I like a challenge

[Zalgred]

How about a 5 minute immunity? =)

 

Stuns have no place in PvP in my opinion.

 

Wow you have no idea of how pvp is in this game... have you played a healing class on pvp?

 

Jesus, stuns can be of a lot of use for some classes in pvp... healer gets attack by a dps, he stuns him and run away, and live to fight for a few more seconds... If there were no stuns that healers would be dead in like 2 seconds.

 

The thing with this game is that's stuns are out of control and some classes and groups of player are abusing from them, like when you get stun locked to death without being able to do anything. But if you had the 10 seconds immunity i was telling you about you could get stunned but maybe live, and the rest of chain stuns that would go after the first will be useless...

[TUXs]

I see what you're saying. My opinion is that making an encounter easier by making it easier to escape a stun isn't necessarily a positive. I like a challenge

 

We can agree on this I'm not suggesting it would be a positive change for PvE either, just a 'change' and not "negative".

[JamieKirby]

I have to admit, sometimes it does feel that way. But in this case there were some great points made by our veteran PvP crowd and we decided to hold the change back to a later version in order to address those points. In the end PTS is exactly for getting this type of feedback. As for the tone of the responses, I think it's ultimately our fault for not communicating enough. We have made big strides here but there is still plenty of room for improvement. We'll keep pushing ourselves to do better, with the goal of making the forums a better place for all.

 

No, they likely just made it seem wrong to do this cooldown modification, this is why I avoid pvp, its not really about fun anymore, its just about winning by any means (within the rules) the moment it stopped being about having fun, is the time it stopped being fun.

[Mharz]

I see what you're saying. My opinion is that making an encounter easier by making it easier to escape a stun isn't necessarily a positive. I like a challenge

 

And I see the glass from a different perspective. I see the stun as an easy (and cheap no skill) solution to take half or more of my health before I can do anything.

 

I see encounters as something that should be resolved as my damage/healing v. your damage/healing. And while CC can (and should) play a role it shouldn't be the way it is now where the first stun is the winning move. The stun should be that last move that you use in desperation to try to throw a heal on yourself or escape to a better position.

 

On principle I still think stuns have no place in PvP. Sorry. No one will convince me otherwise. I've PvPed too long in too many games.

[iamthehoyden]

And I see the glass from a different perspective. I see the stun as an easy (and cheap no skill) solution to take half or more of my health before I can do anything.

 

I see encounters as something that should be resolved as my damage/healing v. your damage/healing. And while CC can (and should) play a role it shouldn't be the way it is now where the first stun is the winning move. The stun should be that last move that you use in desperation to try to throw a heal on yourself or escape to a better position.

 

On principle I still think stuns have no place in PvP. Sorry. No one will convince me otherwise. I've PvPed too long in too many games.

I think you may have misunderstood the context there. I was referring to stuns in pve.

[Mharz]

Wow you have no idea of how pvp is in this game... have you played a healing class on pvp?

 

Jesus, stuns can be of a lot of use for some classes in pvp... healer gets attack by a dps, he stuns him and run away, and live to fight for a few more seconds... If there were no stuns that healers would be dead in like 2 seconds.

 

The thing with this game is that's stuns are out of control and some classes and groups of player are abusing from them, like when you get stun locked to death without being able to do anything. But if you had the 10 seconds immunity i was telling you about you could get stunned but maybe live, and the rest of chain stuns that would go after the first will be useless...

 

I actually understand PvP very well thanks and yes I heal either part time or full time on both a sage/sorc and a Smuggler/Operative. I never cared for trooper/Merc heals so I didn't do that too long so I can't comment there. I'm not sure how you play but I get focused healing and sometimes last a surprisingly long time with 2-3 on me with some self healing, a guard and sometimes some cross healing. If anything, I think healing is sorta silly at the moment because a couple of good healers working together can break most teams.

 

All this said I'm not sure I can agree with you that healers need stuns.

 

I do agree with you that stuns are out of control in this game and there needs to be far less of them, and in my opinion, no stuns, at all, in PvP without some massive penalty for use like a 5 minute immunity or 100% damage reduction while stunned.

[cycao]

I actually understand PvP very well thanks and yes I heal either part time or full time on both a sage/sorc and a Smuggler/Operative. I never cared for trooper/Merc heals so I didn't do that too long so I can't comment there. I'm not sure how you play but I get focused healing and sometimes last a surprisingly long time with 2-3 on me with some self healing, a guard and sometimes some cross healing. If anything, I think healing is sorta silly at the moment because a couple of good healers working together can break most teams.

 

All this said I'm not sure I can agree with you that healers need stuns.

 

I do agree with you that stuns are out of control in this game and there needs to be far less of them, and in my opinion, no stuns, at all, in PvP without some massive penalty for use like a 5 minute immunity or 100% damage reduction while stunned.

 

You misunderstand. I'm not saying remove stuns. I'm saying make the use of stuns, in WZs, so painful that you want to do it only as a last resort and that if you have to do it you will never be able to kill the person you stunned.

 

You play the strongest healing class along with a great healing class with good utility. I cannot believe you think that 'removing' stuns (sounds like that's what you want) would be a good thing. With how healing works and how some dps specs work I can say for certain that it would be impossible to play in warzones if you could not control a character in which you could not do damage to them as you say adding a 100% damage reduction or a 5 minute immunity which is almost half a huttball, so goodbye killing healers or stopping a character or capping a node if the entire team either cannot be damaged while stunned or are immune for 5 minutes...

Edited June 6, 2013 by cycao

[Pyrinoos]

I do agree with you that stuns are out of control in this game and there needs to be far less of them, and in my opinion, no stuns, at all, in PvP without some massive penalty for use like a 5 minute immunity or 100% damage reduction while stunned.

 

You have no idea how pvp works in this game or about class balance. How exactly would a deception sin or a concealment op work with that type of a change? Their openers are stuns! They would do 0 damage!

 

How in the world would you capture an objective consistently without stuns. The game is not a dps/heal race, it is objective based pvp. Stuns are not 0 skill moves, they are game skills which when used properly demonstrate a greater understanding of the game.

[xxIncubixx]

Oh no, the sky is falling!

 

Funny, this PvP is leagues more balanced than many other games. Yeah, it definitely has issues that need to be addressed, but it isn't the worst out there, not by a long shot.

 

And LOL, game is dying?! Where have you been? Did you see the last earnings call? Notice any of the new additions to files in datamines? Take that as a no. . .

 

 

"Funny, this PvP is leagues more balanced than many other games." --> Lol really? so smashmonkeys are balanced? and OP healers and snipers? right...

F2P? no Endgame ... do you really need more? its right in front of your eyes. But anyway no point arguing with fanboys.

[Mharz]

You play the strongest healing class along with a great healing class with good utility. I cannot believe you think that 'removing' stuns (sounds like that's what you want) would be a good thing. With how healing works and how some dps specs work I can say for certain that it would be impossible to play in warzones if you could not control a character in which you could not do damage to them as you say adding a 100% damage reduction or a 5 minute immunity which is almost half a huttball, so goodbye killing healers or stopping a character or capping a node if the entire team either cannot be damaged while stunned or are immune for 5 minutes...

 

So you don't think you could slow a target, focus the target, and kill the target? I do it all the time. Hutball is ripe with silly hazzards you can push, pull, slow or throw people into for more damage and kill them. Focused damage and skillful play is the solution to the cheap easy way of the stun.

 

My challenge to you, and to everyone else that doesn't believe it is to go to your next few WZs and take stun off your bar. Keep your other CCs like slow, root, mez and knockbacks. Play the match. Play a few matches. What you'll find (if you learn quickly) is that you can use other methods to focus and kill targets and win games. That's what I did and I normally win a good number of matches and usually am near the top of the medal board with respectable damage/healing/prot. Not always the top but usually near the top.

 

The stun is a cheap crutch in PvP. Its time to get rid of it or make it less of an "I win" button, because that's what it is right now.

[Ultramecha]

"Funny, this PvP is leagues more balanced than many other games." --> Lol really? so smashmonkeys are balanced? and OP healers and snipers? right...

F2P? no Endgame ... do you really need more? its right in front of your eyes. But anyway no point arguing with fanboys.

 

I love it when people call others fanboys. Seriously if you hate the game why are you playing it? Unless of course your a fanboy as well.

[cycao]

So you don't think you could slow a target, focus the target, and kill the target? I do it all the time. Hutball is ripe with silly hazzards you can push, pull, slow or throw people into for more damage and kill them. Focused damage and skillful play is the solution to the cheap easy way of the stun.

 

My challenge to you, and to everyone else that doesn't believe it is to go to your next few WZs and take stun off your bar. Keep your other CCs like slow, root, mez and knockbacks. Play the match. Play a few matches. What you'll find (if you learn quickly) is that you can use other methods to focus and kill targets and win games. That's what I did and I normally win a good number of matches and usually am near the top of the medal board with respectable damage/healing/prot. Not always the top but usually near the top.

 

The stun is a cheap crutch in PvP. Its time to get rid of it or make it less of an "I win" button, because that's what it is right now.

 

**** it I tried.

 

Remove stuns completely from PvP and I would love to see what happens.

[Mharz]

You have no idea how pvp works in this game or about class balance. How exactly would a deception sin or a concealment op work with that type of a change? Their openers are stuns! They would do 0 damage!

 

How in the world would you capture an objective consistently without stuns. The game is not a dps/heal race, it is objective based pvp. Stuns are not 0 skill moves, they are game skills which when used properly demonstrate a greater understanding of the game.

 

You assume far too much. I've forgotten more about PvP in this game than most people will ever know. Sorry that's the sad fact. I haven't play deception spec in a while but I normally run with someone that does and he normally tops the charts and nearly never stuns. He doesn't need to because he knows how to play very well.

 

Also, just as a point of reference, your opener is never a stun. At least is shouldn't be if you're trying to burst a target down.

 

And I would capture an objective the same way I do everyday now. I target, I focus dps, and I kill people.

 

I understand your view but I disagree. In my mind, every stun says, "I can't beat you with my skill so I'll use some cheap, zero skill move for an advantage." I think that the advantage should come from your skill, your set up, and your execution of play, not some cheap "I win" button. I know this idea is new to a lot of people but I would encourage trying it out. PvP is a lot more fun that way.

[Mharz]

Remove stuns completely from PvP and I would love to see what happens.

 

Me too! Look a convert! Only a million or so more to go! Who's next?!

[DarthSabreth]

I have to admit, sometimes it does feel that way. But in this case there were some great points made by our veteran PvP crowd and we decided to hold the change back to a later version in order to address those points. In the end PTS is exactly for getting this type of feedback. As for the tone of the responses, I think it's ultimately our fault for not communicating enough. We have made big strides here but there is still plenty of room for improvement. We'll keep pushing ourselves to do better, with the goal of making the forums a better place for all.

 

There was alot of folks that was very vocal about the changes that came with patch 1.4 and its still a first class example of how oppresive the CC can be. I can def agree the reset was a bad idea, it would make capping very hard. but also being constantly stun locked is kinda the wrong direction. cant there be a middle ground that can be reached? where the stuns effect resolve a little more and if you die while stunned the resolve bar does not start to drop untill you are let out of the rez zone, or perhaps drop slower?

 

Some of my suggestion might be good for some and not for others but doing something about the resolve issue is what i feel should be focused on. and i believe most maybe not all but most of the pvpers can agree needs a fix.

Edited June 6, 2013 by DarthSabreth