SWTOR Boss Guides Killing The Game?

[Alec_Fortescue]

Don't read the guides.

 

And then don't be surprised when no one wants to group up with a time-waster

[psandak]

And then don't be surprised when no one wants to group up with a time-waster

 

The fights ain't that tough. So long as you are a decent player, and you can listen and comprehend basic instructions, you will not be a "time-waster."

[jedip_enguin]

Guides didn't do WoW any real harm, I doubt they have much impact here either.

[Themanthatisi]

I agree with the OP, but another problem is repair costs, I may have millions and can afford to wipe 20 times learning a boss fight, but MOST others can't afford it.

 

Last night, we had someone quit after wipe 4, just for this reason.... I remember a day, that cost me about 150k in repairs just on myself, I also paid for the repairs of 2 others just so they would not quit. Cost me a fortune, but I had a great time figuring out the fights. However, I can't keep paying for the repairs of others, so guess what.... guides! Shame... or shame on me perhaps.

 

People don't want high repair costs, but BW thinks its needed to control wealth.... oh well. If BW really wanted to control wealth, they would not allow CM items to be resisted on GTN because "poor one day, a millionaire the next day" is not how an economy should work.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Themanthatisi

[ninjonxb]

So you just randomly came across the one in my explanation above, did you? It's a real one. I didn't just make it up. Here's another one:

 

Okara Droid Factory - On the Main Level of the droid factory go to the far West elevator that leads to the Assembly Line Group Area. Go down the elevator. In the group area look for the droid conveyors and drop down onto the first one to the right, then down onto the floor from there. Inside the nearest conveyor support pillar @ (-1023, 1515) is an opening to a shaft-way that drops down onto the pipe that holds the Datacron. It's the 2nd Conveyor North of the passage you entered into the conveyor room.

 

So you will just randomly stumble across this while "exploring," right?

 

First find the elevator to Cave Under Tree on the Tomb map, the location is (-547, -2172). Take the elevator down and travel straight through to the far end of the room. The glowing cube is there with a quest reticule above it. Before the Datacron is a machine that is powered by 4 Rakata Cubes. Rakata Cubes are found all over Belsavis. They spawn at random hidden locations. Three of the locations:

◾Minimum Security (-154, -45) up on top of small hill at the base of a tree.

◾High Security section (-2790, 955) on another hill near base of tree and beside giant orange beet.

◾The Tomb (-703, -1962) on a hill next to a rock ledge.

 

You must place four cubes into the machine and then activate it in order to get inside the Datacron. The Rakata cubes are grey/white and are slightly smaller than Datacron cubes. Also, the Rakata cubes do not glow.

 

You'll just kind of automatically know all these requirements and will randomly stumble across the cave and take the elevator while "exploring," right?

 

Note: i said VISIBLY. If you are paying attention... YES you will SEE the droid factory datacron. But you still have to figure out how to get to it. Most (not all) of the datacrons are like this.

You will mostly either see the datacron. Or see some hidden door/switch and you can start exploring from there. Prime example of the second one. The makeb Datacron.

 

Also. The simple fact is. Even with the guides. someone had to randomly stumble into it to write the guides.

Edited June 5, 2013 by ninjonxb

[gabarooni]

No, lack of endgame content that doesn't involve pvp or raiding is killing the game....for me.

[MSchuyler]

Note: i said VISIBLY. If you are paying attention... YES you will SEE the droid factory datacron. But you still have to figure out how to get to it. Most (not all) of the datacrons are like this.

 

Also. The simple fact is. Even with the guides. someone had to randomly stumble into it to write the guides.

 

I am paying RAPT attention. You were suggesting Datacrons, in general, were easy to see. I have shown here that they are not. There are very few that are visible out in the open. /issue

 

Also, the simple fact is, the guides are already written and that begs the question of just how they were. You are assuming someone "stumbled" across them when it could very well be that they had a little help from some friends. How many people "stumble" into an incinerator room that is zapping their health to find a Datacron hidden behind some boxes while "exploring"? It strains credulity to suggest these things can be had by simply strolling along.

[TUXs]

Now, please bare with me as I type this. I do not want to start a flame war here with those who are pro and those who are con to the thought. I also do not want to hypocritical. Please be aware that my guild has used guides.

 

Are SWTOR Boss Guides killing the game? I ask this because shortly after 2.0 was launched, a so called "expansion," I found myself wandering fleet once again with nothing to do. Max reputation, all content cleared, full Underworld, 12 alts, and avoidance of PvP (due to such terrible Imperial players) have forced me to do other games for the time being. And this goes for others, too.

 

It's called self-control, and it seems you lack it. The "solution" to the guides ruining the game is to...not read them.

 

Makeb was VERY light on "content"...I suggest you do your dailies and avoid the interweb.

[Onaga]

While I appreciate all of the feedback in this thread, please let me clarify that I do not have an issue with any other part of a guide, except for End Game Content and Operations Progression.

 

I understand the issue of not knowing the fights beforehand, but I guess its always been in my nature to teach those who do not know the fights. While yes, if its a new raider in EC Nightmare Mode Kephess, then yes.... I might be a little hesitant to bring them. But chances are a complicated ops like this, and the soon to come Nightmare Modes, there will not be a lot of PuGs that will bring outside players to join them on their run.

 

I, like I said before, do not mind a guide that gives hints and tips, but if you have a complete step-by-step list of every mechanic in the encounter, with what to look for and not to do, it's just stupid. Let the players explore the Star Wars Universe. That's like going back into time, showing Episode 3 before Episode, 4, 5, and 6, and expecting people to be "oh wow, cool" when Vader revealed himself to Luke as his father. Maybe that's a bad example, IDK.

 

As I said before, where is the line of reading instructions and learning the fight without help. I don't know. I just wanted to share my thoughts with the community.

[LordArtemis]

This is not indicative of a problem with guides for content IMO...it is a problem with the entire gear treadmill process. Unfortunately, as long as missions serve as a gear slot machine it is unlikely to change any time soon.

[branmakmuffin]

Bioware said you are supposed to search for them. Its called exploring.

That takes time. I can't be expected to waste my valuable time playing a game. I need that time so I can play a game.

[metalfenix]

I always like to learn boss mechanics in spot, and surprise me for the attacks, trying to think strategies and so on...but it seems like a single-player mindset, in a MMO, my failure dying affects the whole team (specially me being a healer). Me screwing up= team wiping. I always warn beforehand when I come across a FP for the first time but not everyone is up to explain boss mechanics so I have to read sometimes guides for FP. The last one I read was Foundry HM (in dulfy's site), to check what's changed and make sure I have some strategies beforehand. Being my VERY FIRST HM, I didn't wanted to screw up. And I did it well, we only had one wipe at the optional boss, and we got the matriarch on the second try.

 

The guides are very useful, specially for HM FP, wich I know beforehand. I dunno Operations though, I never raided, it stress me A LOT to even think to heal 8-16 people.

 

EDITED TO ADD: Some people will rage quit even in SM FPs when you don't know (or remember if you haven't played for a while) the battles ahead.

Edited June 5, 2013 by metalfenix

[LordArtemis]

Well, to be fair most folks that run premades require you to read up on a mission to participate in my experience. This even happens in PUGs sometimes, though I will never understand why.

[chuixupu]

It's not the guides causing the problem. The most hard core raiders figure it out quick, and that info will make it to everyone else in one way or another. Boss guides have gone up in other MMOs with the same speed, the hard core people finish the hard content quickly regardless, while the majority of players still struggle with even basic content. The people that have cleared all the Hard Mode content right now as a small minority, the people that will clear the Nightmare Mode content quickly will be an even smaller minority.

[ninjonxb]

MMO gaming used to be very different than it is now. It used to be mostly hardcore gamers who could and wanted to spend the time. Over time MMO's have become more and more casual. But these casual people still want to experience all of the content.

 

It has even gotten to the point that WoW in the Firelands patch (4.2) added a window that had guides FROM BLIZZARD fro the fights.

 

New User Interface Feature: Dungeon Journal

A host of dungeon information is now built into the user interface via the all-new Dungeon Journal. This feature can be accessed via a new button in the Navigation tray from anywhere in the world. Boss background story, encounter details, abilities, and loot can be viewed with the Dungeon Journal for all bosses which have been integrated into the new system (this includes bosses for all Cataclysm dungeons and raids). Additional dungeons are planned to be incorporated in future updates.

[Merwanor]

No, lack of endgame content that doesn't involve pvp or raiding is killing the game....for me.

 

Pretty much this, this game was supposed to be the one MMO game that focused more on Story, and since it had companions I thought that they would be a big part of end game also.... Nope, SWTOR is like all the rest, unoriginal end game content.

[Grayseven]

I've done the "repeat til you've figured it out" Boss fight thing with guildies both here and in WoW and a few other MMO's.

 

It's fun for a while but eventually you hit a point where the fun turns into frustration.

 

Why? Because Boss fight difficulties are less about using your class abilities to defeat a Boss and more about doing everything perfectly to beat a timer.

 

Boss immunities to a myriad of normal class abilities tied to a draconian enrage timer means that Boss fights aren't about improvising, adapting and overcoming but are about the perfection of rote. There are no Boss fights in SWTOR that I am aware of that have more than one path to victory and the "harder modes" are nothing more than increased Boss hp and damage done and a shorter timer with a few added or changed mechanics that have one path solutions to victory.

 

This is the norm for MMO's unfortunately. Boss fight mechanics are set in stone and you can either use repetition to try to suss out the details of the fight or you can find a guide to the mechanics and begin your path to perfection of the rote you will need to succeed.

 

Whatever you do, the choice is yours and yours alone. If you don't want to use a guide, no one is twisting your arm and to be quite honest there is no way to stop guides from being made. Even if they were "killing the game" (which is a pretty alarmist statement for such a benign subject) there is nothing that can be done to stop someone from posting a guide to a blog or website somewhere.

[JacenHallis]

First find the elevator to Cave Under Tree on the Tomb map, the location is (-547, -2172). Take the elevator down and travel straight through to the far end of the room. The glowing cube is there with a quest reticule above it. Before the Datacron is a machine that is powered by 4 Rakata Cubes. Rakata Cubes are found all over Belsavis. They spawn at random hidden locations. Three of the locations:

◾Minimum Security (-154, -45) up on top of small hill at the base of a tree.

◾High Security section (-2790, 955) on another hill near base of tree and beside giant orange beet.

◾The Tomb (-703, -1962) on a hill next to a rock ledge.

 

You must place four cubes into the machine and then activate it in order to get inside the Datacron. The Rakata cubes are grey/white and are slightly smaller than Datacron cubes. Also, the Rakata cubes do not glow.

 

You'll just kind of automatically know all these requirements and will randomly stumble across the cave and take the elevator while "exploring," right?

No. You "randomly stumble across" the cave and its elevator while doing Imperial missions, which send you into the Cave Under Tree. Then, you spot this huge machine with usable buttons there. You play with it, and you realize it's asking for something called a "Rakata Energy Cube." Having never seen an item like this before, it does seem much like the Matrix Cube Assembler device you saw on Dromund Kaas near the Dark Temple, so you need to find these cubes (the machine looks like ti requires four of them) and turn it on to see what happens.

 

So, you type "/1 Hey. I found this machine, and it's asking for Rakata Energy Cubes. Anyone have an idea what those are?" Then someone answers, "I found one of those as ground spawn in the wreckage of a crashed ship. It disappeared when I took it, though." And someone else replies, "Yeah. I found one near the rock bridge to the southern part of the area. Looks like they spawn in random places."

 

Then, you and a few others are engaged in finding these cubes. And, because you're extremely tired of looking for them, you get a group together that has a total of four cubes just to see if, by any chance, you can use one set of cubes for a whole group. Everyone places his cube in one of the slots, then someone turns on the machine. After a bit of a light show, you get the familiar quest marker above a glowing cube, and everyone gets a nice stat boost and codex entry.

 

Then, you go and write up a guide on the forums to help other people (especially the Republic rubes that never go to the cave to find the machine) figure out what to do to get this datacron. Someone else decides to farm the energy cubes for a few days, and he makes a guide on how best to gather those.

 

Everything has to be discovered before there can be a guide put up. It's not like Bioware or Blizzard or SOE or anyone else is putting out how exactly to do these things (though I assume some employees do nudge their in-game compatriots toward the final goal, as is their prerogative).

 

There will always be a type of gamer that has to be on the cutting edge of content. They want those server firsts, world firsts and what not. They want to be in the guild that did the first Plane of Time clear, or killed the Sleeper, or first cleared some Nightmare Mode operation. And then there are the masses that don't have the time or wish to devote what time they do have toward really doing such things. We don't care to be first; we just want to do it. That's why the first group writes up the guides: to help the rest of us. We choose to read the guides to help us out and make better use of our time. It's not killing the game. It's contributing to community, such that it is.

 

And, you can always be in a third group that doesn't read the guides. That's your prerogative.

[Jeweledleah]

MMO gaming used to be very different than it is now. It used to be mostly hardcore gamers who could and wanted to spend the time. Over time MMO's have become more and more casual. But these casual people still want to experience all of the content.

 

It has even gotten to the point that WoW in the Firelands patch (4.2) added a window that had guides FROM BLIZZARD fro the fights.

 

1. I take it you haven't been playing video games long? official guides existed for as long as video games existed. player written guides became more prevalent once internet become a lot more accessible (and coincidentally, that's when MMO's started going more mainstream as well - more people were able to connect for longer time and stream faster), especially once virtually everyone was able to get always online modems vs dial up, but official guides are everywhere. in fact... before patch 4.2 blizzard used to publish guides for WoW in paper form. I have a couple of them, I just don't feel like looking, to verify if they used "prima" to publish them or another company

 

2. those dungeon guides of blizzard merely describe boss abilities. they don't tell you where to stand, and exactly when to move, they just tell you in smallest detail what to expect.

 

there's nothing wrong with casual players that have less time to pay. NOTHING. MMO's are not your exclusive hardcore playground, and I'm not sure they were even intended to be. the main thing that shifted was focus on more content that could be consumed in smaller bite size chunks, versus much MUCH less content, but it was far more time consuming.

 

but the best part is? you don't have to bend to the trend. you can still find like minded people, people who want to play old school way, people who don't want to play by the guide, and spend hours figuring out content on your own. after all... guess what dulfy and people like dulfy do? exactly that! they figure stuff out blind. existence of a guide doesn't mean you have to read it. just don't expect random pugs to feel the same way.

 

i don't know about you all, but I hate wiping for hours with people I don't know and likely will not see again. at least with friends, as we're wiping - we're also chatting and joking and socializing.

 

P.S. about the datacron hunts. i still have no idea how people found the ones on Makeb the first time. they are neither visible from the outside, as far as i could tell... nor are they exactly intuitive to find. it must have taken a great deal of time and multiple people searching, covering different areas, while checking in with each other.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Jeweledleah

[Kilora]

1. I take it you haven't been playing video games long? official guides existed for as long as video games existed. player written guides became more prevalent once internet become a lot more accessible (and coincidentally, that's when MMO's started going more mainstream as well - more people were able to connect for longer time and stream faster), especially once virtually everyone was able to get always online modems vs dial up, but official guides are everywhere. in fact... before patch 4.2 blizzard used to publish guides for WoW in paper form. I have a couple of them, I just don't feel like looking, to verify if they used "prima" to publish them or another company

 

I think you completely misunderstood his post.

 

He meant -- Video Games used to be PRIMARILY people who were "hardcore" by todays standards, and that is 100% true.

 

Yeah, guides for everything have always been around. No arguing that. But pre-WoW, the MMO genre wasn't anywhere near as popular. WoW lowered the entry-point.

 

This is actually a good thing -- but to ignore history is always bad. Videogames started out with "hardcore" players, many of whom didn't want to follow guides. The mindset of the majority has changed -- but they still exist.

[Turshek]

It's one of the reasons I liked my time in Age of Conan, despite all its flaws. I was on the european RP-PvE server, a small server with not many people interested in raids, it was really nice to be in a guild with people trying to learn tactics by trials and errors.

 

Imo, the real shift is caused by the bigger focus put on gear than on content. I think that now a bigger percentage of the community is driven by the will to get the best gear instead of having fun in an instance trying to solve the puzzle of the boss' tactics. The goal becomes to get gear quickly, efficiently and thus "wasting" time is bad, guides are only a consequence of this efficient way to play.

 

Part of the reason of the focus on gear is social status, guys in best gear are more "cool". The sooner you get items the better. I think it's less important in SWTOR, thanks to the end-game armors designs.

 

For a part though it comes from bad game design or at least designs not matching the playstyle of parts of the community. The problem when you attract very different people to your game is that they have very different expectations, playstyles or MMO experience. Whatever the difficulty/complexity of the encounters, some of thoses people will be frustrated but for different reasons. It might be too easy or simple and thus some will be bored and won't accept wasting time. It might be too hard or complex and some will complain, not wanting to wipe and thus use guides.

 

This is more the problem in SWTOR, people with completely backgrounds. Furthermore, with that much content, it's really easy to arrive at the end-game without group experience, the game doesn't "force" people to play better or in a group, nor what is expected from the different roles. With group finder randomly mixing people, you are led to use guides as the content becomes harder/new.