ETA on Advanced Class change?

[Vhaegrant]

It seems to be the same person who keeps necro'ing this thread--a person who CLAIMS that they do not need to have the ability to change CLASS (AC), yet continues to necro a three year old thread.

I've never knowingly necroed the thread beyond a week or two (sometimes I don't have access to the forums for that length of time) or to specifically respond to someone who has quoted me. However over the months there are many people that have bought it back onto the front page.

The same person dismisses the statements made by the devs, in which those devs state:

AC's are FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT CLASS DESIGNS

That AC's were treated as FULL CLASSES within themselves

This person claims those statements no longer apply, as they were made years ago and made by people no longer associated with this game, yet he clings to a VERY AMBIGUOUS statement made over three years ago by a person that is, to the best of my knowledge, no longer associated with this game stating the AC changes would "likely happen eventually". Why the edev statements that would put the lie to this poster's claims that your AC is not your class are to be dismissed, yet the years old statement to which he clings is to be treated as gospel, one can only conjecture. It does not seem to me to be difficult to see the self serving drive behind this, though.

I've never dismissed the quote, or considered the other quote gospel.

All I've ever tried to do was place them in their chronological sequence and mention the experience of the person associated to the quote.

A few months before launch we had a snippet from a press event where a producer said AC swap was a thing.

About a month after launch we have a quote by the lead writer that said ACs where designed to have their own mechanics.

A year or so after launch and after the upheaval of the transition to the hybrid model (f2p) we have the lead designer responsible saying AC swap may happen in the future.

Since then no mention by the devs.

This statement also mentioned a PURELY COSMETIC change would also likely happen, and we have seen that implemented, however the option to change CLASS (AC-as previously mentioned treated as a full class by the devs) has not.

One proposed change is not contingent on another.

Could this be due to the fact that changing your class (AC-treated as a full class by the devs) is a far cry from cosmetic changing of your race? Cold this be because the devs do not intend to allow class (AC-treated as a full class by the devs) changes, yet do not want to alienate those members of the "have to have it NOW and for as little effort and cost as possible" crowd that demand to be able to change their class (AC-treated as a full class by the devs) by saying that they have no intention at this time to allow class (AC-treated as a full class by the devs) changes?

First of all to many roleplayers out there I suspect a cosmetic race change is just as repugnant as the proposed AC swap is to hardcore players. The simple truth is MMOs cater to a wide spectrum of gamers and they all have opinions.

Secondly I have no idea what the devs are thinking, but they have made it clear that they do not intend to speculate on features only to state what is coming to the game. Many of the changes the devs have made since 3.0 actually make the AC swap easier to implement. However, with the inclusion of a paid-level60 I don't think the devs are overly concerned about the skill levels of those players entering into end game content.

 

Not overly fond of your attempted Ad Hominem attack or your disparaging tone towards those that may have a different opinion to yours. Please be respectful and discuss the matter as it would apply to game balance and potential impact.

Edited January 13, 2016 by Vhaegrant

[lightSaberAddiCt]

Vhaegrant you can necro this thread until hades freezes over, but they have stated numerous occasions it is not happening. Beg, plead, justify all you want, but it wont happen. You would think people would figure this out after no response, hint or any other type of message from BW insinuating that they are changing their mind has never arrived on a thread over 4 years old.

[Vhaegrant]

You can change your spec (discipline). You cannot change your CLASS ((AC-treated as a full class by the devs).

 

There is a difference, despite your claims to the contrary.

 

Final Fantasy XIV: a realm reborn allows you to change your Class. They make it as simple as changing the weapon you have equipped.

Yes each Class is levelled separately, this would be similar to the AC swap option proposed on LordArtemis' list of having to unlock the AC(or mirror) you want to switch to first.

[lightSaberAddiCt]

Final Fantasy XIV: a realm reborn allows you to change your Class. They make it as simple as changing the weapon you have equipped.

Yes each Class is levelled separately, this would be similar to the AC swap option proposed on LordArtemis' list of having to unlock the AC(or mirror) you want to switch to first.

 

This isnt Final Fantasy.

[Savej]

You can change your spec (discipline). You cannot change your CLASS ((AC-treated as a full class by the devs).

 

There is a difference, despite your claims to the contrary.

 

You're fanatically wrapped up in semantics. "Class" is not the same thing in every game. And.besides, devs in this game have not been consistent when defining them here.

[Vhaegrant]

Vhaegrant you can necro this thread until hades freezes over, but they have stated numerous occasions it is not happening. Beg, plead, justify all you want, but it wont happen. You would think people would figure this out after no response, hint or any other type of message from BW insinuating that they are changing their mind has never arrived on a thread over 4 years old.

 

Again, I've never directly necroed this thread. or any other.

I do however to respond to those that quote me or have taken the time to necro.

Also, I'm not sure why there should be any concern about this thread and those that psot on it as long as they are respectful and largely stick to the matter at hand.

 

I really like discussing game mechanics and the reason for them. I don't really care if the devs decide to illuminate the matter further or not.

 

Personally I think SWTOR was marketed to the wrong audience.

It seemed to launch to MMO gamers that happen to like Star Wars. many of the processes were time consuming (travel time being a good example, something that has been reduced at every major patch/ expansion) and there were limited options that you made in the early stages of a character you'd be expected to play for days.

 

I think the larger audience was always going to be Star Wars fans that like a variety of games. And many Star Wars fans are of an older generation with some disposable income. I suspect that's why the direction has gone to a more casual style with better trade offs for time/cash investment.

I still think they could do more to provide some challenge for a solo player that reflects the role of the character.

But opening up AC selection is just an option. Nothing more, nothing less.

Edited January 13, 2016 by Vhaegrant

[Vhaegrant]

This isnt Final Fantasy.

 

A fair enough point.

It also isn't WoW , and yet many use that games definition of Class to be the definition SWTOR should abide by.

 

SWTOR should be its own game.

 

And, from a pure mechanics point of balance AC swap makes no difference. Let that be a unique selling point for SWTOR.

 

I do not think the origin of the restriction had anything to do with mechanics but instead marketing.

Bearing in mind the total development time of SWTOR here's a link from SDCC 2011 as to where the devs stood on ac change

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lO46vqhxjUU&t=7m38s

I think it's interesting that something happened between May and December that made the devs make an about turn.

Maybe the scenario was this...

Marketing: 'How many Classes do we have?'

Developer: 'Eight'

Marketing: 'How many Classes does World Of Warcraft have?'

Developer: 'Ten'

Marketing: 'Hmmmm, people won't play SWTOR if it has less classes than WoW, I know let's restrict access to Advanced Classes and think of them as classes for all purposes. Then we have sixteen '

Developer: 'Sigh'

Edited January 13, 2016 by Vhaegrant

[robertthebard]

You mean players shouldn't have options available to them?

If there are certain mechanics in place to balance Tank/Heal/DPS that's one thing (and probably the origin of the two step Class -> Adavanced Class -> Discipline). But allowing AC swapping does not fundamentally change these balances.

 

What are you even talking about? Players have options available to them from the time they decide to roll up. What you meant to say was "players should be able to waffle out of any decision they make simply because they want to". The class structure is laid out fairly well, and it's not rocket science, so everyone has a good chance of figuring it out.

 

If it's so easy to get a character to max level why would you be upset about whether another player chooses to bypass that stage? Is it more a bah-humbug argument that you did it a certain way, so should every one else?

 

What's the point in spending dev time on something that isn't needed? There is no case where it would be easier to change advance class than it is to roll a 60, or to roll back to 50 on a new toon. The problem with your hyperbole here is that I don't care if you roll up at 1 or 60. I just don't see the point in wasting dev time in making it so you can bounce around to whatever just because you want to, which means that they not only have to write the code to support that "I can't make up my mind" syndrome, they also have to go back and change all the warnings in game that state that you can't change your mind once you choose, which is, by the way, a fairly compelling reason to leave it in. You made an informed decision, and now think the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. So roll another toon, at 60 if you like, on that side of the fence. The mechanics to enable you to do that are already in game, knock yourself out.

[Mordresh]

I would totally dig this. The reason I went Marauder is because they could wear lighter looking armour since that's not an issue anymore I'd love to try out Juggernaut for a while without losing my progress.

[Vhaegrant]

What are you even talking about? Players have options available to them from the time they decide to roll up. What you meant to say was "players should be able to waffle out of any decision they make simply because they want to". The class structure is laid out fairly well, and it's not rocket science, so everyone has a good chance of figuring it out.

No, what I meant to say was exactly what I said.

At no point in the recent discussion have we been talking about associated cost of the AC swap. I don't think it should be free. There was a list going around with proposed options but the two main ones were a one use token purchased from the cc, or the need to unlock the AC (or its mirror) first so you could then purchase a swap option (similar to field recpec).

The trouble is, especially if you are a new player to MMOs you only get to figure out how a role plays in end game content when you are in end game content. That's a long way to go for most to see if that option made was the right one.

I actually liked the sound of how the devs intended AC swap to work. It cost a little more each time you used it. It was in 6 months before launch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lO46vqhxjUU&t=7m38s

 

What's the point in spending dev time on something that isn't needed? There is no case where it would be easier to change advance class than it is to roll a 60, or to roll back to 50 on a new toon. The problem with your hyperbole here is that I don't care if you roll up at 1 or 60. I just don't see the point in wasting dev time in making it so you can bounce around to whatever just because you want to, which means that they not only have to write the code to support that "I can't make up my mind" syndrome, they also have to go back and change all the warnings in game that state that you can't change your mind once you choose, which is, by the way, a fairly compelling reason to leave it in. You made an informed decision, and now think the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. So roll another toon, at 60 if you like, on that side of the fence. The mechanics to enable you to do that are already in game, knock yourself out.

The devs obviously thought it was an important enough option that it was the intended position throughout most of the development. I suspect a few things occurred during this last phase:

As the game rolled out into Beta the noise hardcore players made about class/role structure started to drown out those that were happy with it.

Knowing that it was only a beta and there would be a rollback people weren't as invested in their character and so the thought of AC swapping was less of an issue.

There were some technical/ balance issues to overcome with regards to tracking ability progression and training costs if you flip flopped between ACs while levelling (this is a moot point now as training is free and there are no discipline trees).

Edited January 13, 2016 by Vhaegrant

[Ratajack]

 

 

The devs obviously thought it was an important enough option that it was the intended position throughout most of the development.

 

Actually, unless I am mistaken (and I am sure someone will point it out if I am), class (AC-treated as full classes by the devs) changing was originally NOT intended, then for a brief time the devs talked about allowing it, then reverted back to their original position, due in large part to the numbers of people against allowing class (AC-treated as full classes by the devs) changes.

 

It was never the intended position throughout most of the development.

[Vhaegrant]

Actually, unless I am mistaken (and I am sure someone will point it out if I am), class (AC-treated as full classes by the devs) changing was originally NOT intended, then for a brief time the devs talked about allowing it, then reverted back to their original position, due in large part to the numbers of people against allowing class (AC-treated as full classes by the devs) changes.

 

It was never the intended position throughout most of the development.

Considering the range of answers for most of the development was, 'We'll not talk about that until it's confirmed.' I find it hard to believe that at a fairly major contact point with the fan base, SDCC2011, to a direct question about AC swapping they gave a direct answer. Aside from the pre-fix of 'currently' There was no attempt to be evasive, just a clear statement of intent and their reasoning behind it.

So, in that respect, currently SWTOR does not have AC swapping but maybe in the future it will.

Edited January 13, 2016 by Vhaegrant

[Ratajack]

Considering the range of answers for most of the development was, 'We'll not talk about that until it's confirmed.' I find it hard to believe that at a fairly major contact point with the fan base, SDCC2011, to a direct question about AC swapping they gave a direct answer. Aside from the pre-fix of 'currently' There was no attempt to be evasive, just a clear statement of intent and their reasoning behind it.

So, in that respect, currently SWTOR does not have AC swapping but maybe in the future it will.

 

I know that there may be a day when class (AC-treated as full classes by the devs) changing will be implemented, but as I have said many times, I do not see it happening in the foreseeable future. If it ever happens, IMO, it will be when the game is well and truly dying, in a last ditch effort to milk as much revenue as possible before servers are shut down permanently.

 

It has been said many times before, but if those members of the "have to have it NOW, and for as little effort and cost as possible" crowd would have put half as much effort into actually leveling that new class (AC-treated as full classes by the devs) they want to play, they could likely have leveled and geared up multiple new classes by now, especially with streamlined leveling process and increased XP.

[Savej]

Actually, unless I am mistaken (and I am sure someone will point it out if I am), class (AC-treated as full classes by the devs) changing was originally NOT intended, then for a brief time the devs talked about allowing it, then reverted back to their original position, due in large part to the numbers of people against allowing class (AC-treated as full classes by the devs) changes.

 

It was never the intended position throughout most of the development.

 

The game was released in dec 2011. In July at the San Diego Comic Con of that year, several producers and devs were on a stage talking to rabid fans about SWTOR for awhile. The youtube is out there. There are links in this thread to the youtube that you have responded to in the past but I certainly understand you getting mixed up after creating almost a thousand posts in this thread. At that Con, according to the speakers, SWTOR was set to be released with AC swapping. That was their understanding ( after years of development ) and their plan. It is entirely pssible that we never actually saw that plan implemented because there are bugs in the feature as it was used by devs last year when they ran streams of the 3.0 class changes. During one of those streams we saw a bug when the dev tried to swap an AC ".... and this is why we don't have AC Swapping" is as close as I can remember the off-hand quote from a lead BW programmer at that time.

[Ratajack]

The game was released in dec 2011. In July at the San Diego Comic Con of that year, several producers and devs were on a stage talking to rabid fans about SWTOR for awhile. The youtube is out there. There are links in this thread to the youtube that you have responded to in the past but I certainly understand you getting mixed up after creating almost a thousand posts in this thread. At that Con, according to the speakers, SWTOR was set to be released with AC swapping. That was their understanding ( after years of development ) and their plan. It is entirely pssible that we never actually saw that plan implemented because there are bugs in the feature as it was used by devs last year when they ran streams of the 3.0 class changes. During one of those streams we saw a bug when the dev tried to swap an AC ".... and this is why we don't have AC Swapping" is as close as I can remember the off-hand quote from a lead BW programmer at that time.

 

 

As I said, there was a brief time when the devs talked about allowing class (AC-treated as full classes by the devs) swapping. The statement you reference was made during that brief time.

 

As I also said, those same devs reverted back to their original design prior to release, which is why class (AC-treated as full classes by the devs) never saw the light of day in release.

[PorsaLindahl]

The funniest thing about this post is that it asks the ETA like it was already in concrete that they would do it, when it was said that it may be possible. That's not saying that it will be done. That's not saying it may be done. Also, the Dev that said that, Damion Schubert, left BW over year ago.

 

My thoughts: It'll never happen. It's a pipe dream.

[Savej]

As I said, there was a brief time when the devs talked about allowing class (AC-treated as full classes by the devs) swapping. The statement you reference was made during that brief time.

 

As I also said, those same devs reverted back to their original design prior to release, which is why class (AC-treated as full classes by the devs) never saw the light of day in release.

 

Just so we're clear here: how long is "brief" in your dictionary? Those "same devs and producers" didn't address the topic again to my knowledge - it was a different one that add4essed the topic on msg boards just before release and, if I remember right, that dev was one of the first to go after the game started tanking.

[LordArtemis]

At this point the level 60 token does negate the need, if any, to a certain extent. It would still be nice, perhaps, to keep learned schems and influence, but I generally do what I expect most do and park the toon/reroll.

 

Though I gave up the fight for ACs to have true meaning long ago, and I think this is an idea whos time has come if at any point in the games life, I too find this unlikely as it is difficult for me to see WHY they would want to do this at this point.

[Ratajack]

Just so we're clear here: how long is "brief" in your dictionary? Those "same devs and producers" didn't address the topic again to my knowledge - it was a different one that add4essed the topic on msg boards just before release and, if I remember right, that dev was one of the first to go after the game started tanking.

 

I would think that development, from initial concept to release, took several years. I would consider a period of a few months (less than 6 months from date of your video to release) would qualify as brief when weighed against a development period of years.

[Vhaegrant]

I know that there may be a day when class (AC-treated as full classes by the devs) changing will be implemented, but as I have said many times, I do not see it happening in the foreseeable future. If it ever happens, IMO, it will be when the game is well and truly dying, in a last ditch effort to milk as much revenue as possible before servers are shut down permanently.

 

It has been said many times before, but if those members of the "have to have it NOW, and for as little effort and cost as possible" crowd would have put half as much effort into actually leveling that new class (AC-treated as full classes by the devs) they want to play, they could likely have leveled and geared up multiple new classes by now, especially with streamlined leveling process and increased XP.

 

The 'have to have it NOW, and for as little effort and cost as possible' crowd as you so rudely put it are the ones that keep this game ticking over with their cartel market purchases for vanity fluff.

The changes the game has undergone since launch have largely been to appeal to a wider gaming audience and not to make it more of a niche game for hardcore players. The idea that an MMO should only be a game style for those with hours and hours to burn running long time sink activities should be dead and buried.

Just look at the list of additions that many would never say would see the light of day (I make no comment on the final quality of product just the fact they were indeed added): Off rails PvP space shooter, Strongholds, Appearance tabs.

Not to mention the fact that there is at least one other case of a pre-launch change that has since been reversed. Originally companions were being developed to have packs that defined their role, this allowed a companion to have any role. Look at one of the earliest promo pictures that has Qyzen using a blast rifle (he uses a techblade), or the in game combat dialogue of Akaavi Spar who is always talking about her guns (she uses a techstaff). 4.0 companions can now access any role, and while some don't like the change I find it refreshing to be able to choose the companion I want to play with rather than being forced to take the one that meets my playstyle needs.

Should AC swap ever be introduced it won't signal the demise of SWTOR any more than the inclusion of a hybrid subscription model and the cartel market did.

[Vhaegrant]

At this point the level 60 token does negate the need, if any, to a certain extent. It would still be nice, perhaps, to keep learned schems and influence, but I generally do what I expect most do and park the toon/reroll.

 

Though I gave up the fight for ACs to have true meaning long ago, and I think this is an idea whos time has come if at any point in the games life, I too find this unlikely as it is difficult for me to see WHY they would want to do this at this point.

In many ways the level 60 token is a better choice than an AC swap.

You get a second character (with an additional character slot included) with all the bonuses of additional storage space (free if you've made the small upfront cost of unlocking bank and inventory slots across your account), a second crafting profession and the ability to run an additional set of weeklies/ lockouts if you have the time.

There is the loss and you lose access to things such as pets, vehicles, titles, companions (including investment in influence) and crafting progress.

But for some players it is the association they make to that character that they don't want to lose. For a game that sets such stock in storytelling and making emotional choices (ymmv on how emotional, but looking at the annoyance the relationship issues with companions flares up I'd say many get quite an emotional attachment to their character), not to mention the connection a player has to playing the game with friends/guildies through a particular character.

I've always thought the meaningful part of character choice was the Class you choose to play and the role you have them fill, Advanced Class sits as a mechanical distinction to maintain balance across available abilities. The sort of meaning that could be ascribed to an AC choice is just as meaningful when applied to the choice of Discipline.

[DarthSpuds]

Not really.

More like Your class is the high school, and Advanced class being university.

What you described is swapping Crew Skills

 

No.

 

I am doing it, not my companions.

 

So if I am the one doing the work the direct correlation is Advanced Class.

 

All The Best

[Fevee]

Actually, unless I am mistaken (and I am sure someone will point it out if I am), class (AC-treated as full classes by the devs) changing was originally NOT intended, then for a brief time the devs talked about allowing it, then reverted back to their original position, due in large part to the numbers of people against allowing class (AC-treated as full classes by the devs) changes.

 

It was never the intended position throughout most of the development.

 

One's physical build and even species used to be set in stone, too.

[Anzel]

After playing through KoTFE I think it's safe to say that our personal stories are gone gone gone. Can we please get an option to switch ACs now? I have 22 total characters, more than one of each AC but I would still love to change up a few of them.

[TUXs]

After playing through KoTFE I think it's safe to say that our personal stories are gone gone gone. Can we please get an option to switch ACs now? I have 22 total characters, more than one of each AC but I would still love to change up a few of them.

Sadly, with the insta 60 tokens, I think you'll be SOL on this ever happening. Buying a 60, makes Bioware $...freely swapping your AC, doesn't.