ETA on Advanced Class change?

[Miyran]

So you agree that devs who say "never" frequently reverse themselves? That was my point.

 

Not the devs, the players; and I'm inclined to disregard "f2p" as a viable option in your 'nevers list', as it's an expectation of most MMOs now - something that IS bound to happen.

[Savej]

No this thread is made invalid by the fact that during the 3.0 preview streams while on a dev server using dev hacks the only way to change AC's was to revert the character to level 9, relevel it to 60, and repick your AC, and EVEN with dev hacks it STILL broke the game a number of times.

 

But people in this thread are ignorant and live in their own little world.

 

The hate is strong in this one.

[Vhaegrant]

I'm an anti-AC change guy, but I do agree with this. If you can buy a level 60 character, there is no reason ... whatsoever ... not to allow a one-time AC change for the same price.

 

Why so expensive?

While not disclosed yet I would expect the new level 60 character to have a price tag in the region of 5,500 CCs (I doubt it would be lower, it may be higher... I base it on the top value CC pack that can be purchased, that's about £24)

 

You gain a lot more functionality out of a NEW level 60 character than an AC swap. You gain all those extra bank slots (if you've taken the time to unlock them across account, this has to be one of the best purchases you can make with CC) not to mention an ADDITIONAL character to run through dailies on (considering how easy CZ-198, Oricon, Yavin 4 and Ziost are in level 172 gear (the blue Rishi mods) that can be 500,000crs in around about an hour or two). You can even gear through LEGACY kit (it's never been easier with all those reputation vendors, not to mention Outfit Designer negates the need to get good looking legacy gear).

 

If an AC feature was implemented I would have thought the easiest option would be a consumable token from the Cartel Market (resellable on the GTN) that could only be activated at a class trainer (this puts the player in the vicinity of the NPC they need to interact with to rebuy all their new skills... which no longer costs anything).

For that a 1,000 CC price tag sounds a lot fairer, and more likely to be used.

[Jeweledleah]

No it was done because it was the only way to change ACs, and they were showing things for both ACs during each stream.

 

at this time. the only way at this time. it sounds like they did no coding for it at all, so of course it was a broken mess. if they actualy have done any work on implementing it as a feature.... and it STILL wouldn't work, or work badly, THEN we'd have something to talk about.

 

but so far, we have no developer come out and say that AC change is too complex or whatever to implement. the only thing we heard from them that it was a possibility, rather than definite no.

[Vhaegrant]

at this time. the only way at this time. it sounds like they did no coding for it at all, so of course it was a broken mess. if they actualy have done any work on implementing it as a feature.... and it STILL wouldn't work, or work badly, THEN we'd have something to talk about.

 

but so far, we have no developer come out and say that AC change is too complex or whatever to implement. the only thing we heard from them that it was a possibility, rather than definite no.

 

One of the interesting things that came out of 3.0 was the removal of the training costs.

This removes one of the hurdles of considering AC swapping as you no longer have to keep track of the levels on the different ACs.

It's made even easier if you tie the AC swap function onto the class trainers as the repurchase of the new ACs abilities can be made automatic.

 

The only issue that really remains is a small amount of code to remove any items that are not usable. For most classes with their AC swap this would primarily affect the main and off hand slots but for the Jedi Knight/ Sith Warrior you would have to consider all of the armour slots as well.

As this is occurring in a non-combat zone it may be enough to run a quick check on space in inventory (code already exists and is used frequently when picking up in game mail, especially if you play the GTN a lot ), and if there are 9 slots free just strip the gear into the characters inventory.

[Savej]

Not the devs, the players; and I'm inclined to disregard "f2p" as a viable option in your 'nevers list', as it's an expectation of most MMOs now - something that IS bound to happen.

 

The fact is not all mmos have gone f2p, BW devs were insistent that this one wouldn't and yet here we are.

 

Other games that didn't start off allowing spec swapping (AC swapping is much more equivalent to spec swapping in other games) or skill re-allocations or whatever-you-want-to-call-it did eventually come around (including ESO). BW is slow and stubborn (and a bit cheap) on some industry-standard things (but not when it came to going f2p).

[Conundrum-NSA]

I would be OK with not having AC swapping if instant 60's were reasonable on the CM.

 

My gut tells me they will not be reasonable, I'm betting AT LEAST $20, likely more.

[Knorlac]

I would be OK with not having AC swapping if instant 60's were reasonable on the CM.

 

My gut tells me they will not be reasonable, I'm betting AT LEAST $20, likely more.

 

To be honest, I wouldn't consider $20 to reasonable at all...hope they make it at least $60 like in the other game. And compared to the time you have to spend leveling normally (at least without 12xXP), even that is pretty cheap.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Knorlac

[RoboArthurDayne]

If there were ever free AC change or the option for a small fee I wouldn't mind at all. Hell, I would welcome it.

 

Doesn't make me worse off or affect me negatively in anyway if someone else wants to change Advanced Class and have some fun. I might even try it too to see what I've been missing out (maybe I'll switch my Juggernaut/Guardian into a Marauder/Sentinel for some dual saber action, then switch back after I'm bored. Love my tanks and the single saber look more).

[ekwalizer]

Why so expensive?

While not disclosed yet I would expect the new level 60 character to have a price tag in the region of 5,500 CCs (I doubt it would be lower, it may be higher... I base it on the top value CC pack that can be purchased, that's about £24)

 

I'm glad you asked. The reason it should be expensive is so that it isn't done with every AC update. Another reason is because since May 4th and through presumably the middle of October, you can level up for FREE that other AC. So the argument of "grinding" has been rendered moot.

 

You gain a lot more functionality out of a NEW level 60 character than an AC swap. You gain all those extra bank slots (if you've taken the time to unlock them across account, this has to be one of the best purchases you can make with CC) not to mention an ADDITIONAL character to run through dailies on (considering how easy CZ-198, Oricon, Yavin 4 and Ziost are in level 172 gear (the blue Rishi mods) that can be 500,000crs in around about an hour or two). You can even gear through LEGACY kit (it's never been easier with all those reputation vendors, not to mention Outfit Designer negates the need to get good looking legacy gear).

 

What you don't get with that new character is all of your datacrons, personal pets, and any other unique items/no longer obtainable items. This is, in my opinion, the most solid argument made to allow AC swap.

 

If an AC feature was implemented I would have thought the easiest option would be a consumable token from the Cartel Market (resellable on the GTN) that could only be activated at a class trainer (this puts the player in the vicinity of the NPC they need to interact with to rebuy all their new skills... which no longer costs anything).

 

I would wager that most people have the Hutt trainer anyway.

 

For that a 1,000 CC price tag sounds a lot fairer, and more likely to be used.

 

This statement really, really leads me to believe that you just want the option to go back and forth as the winds change.

Edited July 25, 2015 by ekwalizer

[Vhaegrant]

I'm glad you asked. The reason it should be expensive is so that it isn't done with every AC update. Another reason is because since May 4th and through presumably the middle of October, you can level up for FREE that other AC. So the argument of "grinding" has been rendered moot.

I'm sure BW would be happy with £5 every time someone decides to swap over their AC whether it's because of AC balance changes or otherwise.

Level up for free? Why is that a good return for BW or other players of SWTOR? I presume the 'free levelling' you are talking about is the x12 xp bonus to class quests available to subscribers?

The AC swap isn't a feature to appeal to those gamers that want all access to SWTOR without paying a penny, it's there to add a QOL convenience feature to those that want to make use of it.

People have had access to 'free' characters (two slots worth to level 50) ever since SWTOR went F2P.

What many players don't have access to is the 40+ hours of time (I tend to average 80 hours to 60 but then I like doing all the quests for the story) to level up a character.

What you don't get with that new character is all of your datacrons, personal pets, and any other unique items/no longer obtainable items. This is, in my opinion, the most solid argument made to allow AC swap.

So you agree there are valid arguments for allowing an AC swap feature

I would wager that most people have the Hutt trainer anyway.

I'm pretty sure Dr Orrogub was a reward for pre-ordering Rise of the Hutt cartel. There are the two faction specific trainers as well (Satele and Malgus statues) from the first cartel packs. If you feel these portable trainers make an AC swap too easy to apply any place maybe it would be more constructive to suggest restricting the AC swap feature to the original respec NPCs (on fleet, home world), the original NPCs that send you to choose your AC (on fleet) or a unique terminal for ship/stronghold (purchased through CM/ unlocked through Legacy).

This statement really, really leads me to believe that you just want the option to go back and forth as the winds change.

And field re-specialisation for a subscriber doesn't already allow you to change as the mood takes you?

I would put forward that changing your role is the defining part of play style.

Going from melee DPS to range DPS is relatively minor compared to changing from DPS to Tank.

I'm not sure why you are okay with such massive changes to playstyle and the requirement to re-gear that already exists in game and yet are so set against allowing a little more convenience and flexibility.

Edited June 26, 2015 by Vhaegrant

[ekwalizer]

I'm sure BW would be happy with £5 every time someone decides to swap over their AC whether it's because of AC balance changes or otherwise.

Level up for free? Why is that a good return for BW or other players of SWTOR? I presume the 'free levelling' you are talking about is the x12 xp bonus to class quests available to subscribers?

The AC swap isn't a feature to appeal to those gamers that want all access to SWTOR without paying a penny, it's there to add a QOL convenience feature to those that want to make use of it.

People have had access to 'free' characters (two slots worth to level 50) ever since SWTOR went F2P.

What many players don't have access to is the 40+ hours of time (I tend to average 80 hours to 60 but then I like doing all the quests for the story) to level up a character.

 

So you agree there are valid arguments for allowing an AC swap feature

 

I'm pretty sure Dr Orrogub was a reward for pre-ordering Rise of the Hutt cartel. There are the two faction specific trainers as well (Satele and Malgus statues) from the first cartel packs. If you feel these portable trainers make an AC swap too easy to apply any place maybe it would be more constructive to suggest restricting the AC swap feature to the original respec NPCs (on fleet, home world), the original NPCs that send you to choose your AC (on fleet) or a unique terminal for ship/stronghold (purchased through CM/ unlocked through Legacy).

 

And field re-specialisation for a subscriber doesn't already allow you to change as the mood takes you?

I would put forward that changing your role is the defining part of play style.

Going from melee DPS to range DPS is relatively minor compared to changing from DPS to Tank.

I'm not sure why you are okay with such massive changes to playstyle and the requirement to re-gear that already exists in game and yet are so set against allowing a little more convenience and flexibility.

 

First of all, and I have pointed this out to you on many occasions; you are confused about what Advanced Classes are and what the Stories are. Your Story is your archetype (ie Bounty Hunter), your Advanced Class is your Class. I'm not aware of any AAA MMO that allows you to change your Class. The ACs are not "Prestige Classes" from PnP DnD - and even if they were you can't change that either unless your DM is stupid.

 

Respeccing within a given Advanced Class is just that, respeccing your abilities not your class.

 

I have always agreed that there are "a few" valid reasons to allow a one-time AC respec, so if you are trying to snare me in a "gotcha moment" you missed the mark. My capitulation to one-time respec is not a new trend.

 

I didn't mention the field trainers to discount AC respec, I brought it up just to highlight that there is no need to go back to the fleet to do it. Traveling to the fleet is by no means restrictive.

 

Yes by free I meant with 12xp. No one cares how much time you or any other player has available to play. Even without 12xp, toons can be leveled to 60 in ~ 50 hours.

 

Speaking of not having time to commit to the game; if people don't have time to play the game then they really ought not care too much about whether or not they can respec ... ya know since they aren't playing the game very much.

 

The convenience and flexibility has been there since the introduction of Legacy shells. My PT shares with my VG, My Mercs share with my Mando, my Jugs share with my my guardians and sent/mara, my agents share with my smugglers, my Sin shares with my shadow and my Sorc shares with my consular. So, I'd say between 12xp and Legacy shells there is plenty of convenience and flexibility.

 

Now, as I clearly stated, given that we will be able to purchase Level 60 tokens - I see no reason to disallow AC respec for the same price. I don't understand why you feel it should be cheaper. That does not make fiscal sense, as it is effectively the same concept. Purchasing an AC respec does not negate purchasing a level 60 (or many).

 

The only game I can think of where Class respec was an option, the price still became prohibitive if you over-used the feature. Changing your class should not be done "willy-nilly" because it is balance breaking.

 

Further it eliminates any need to repeat stories. I keep hearing that "story" is what this game is all about. Why would Bioware encourage (ie) Bounty Hunters to only play once through and give them access to both ACs?

[Vhaegrant]

First of all, and I have pointed this out to you on many occasions; you are confused about what Advanced Classes are and what the Stories are. Your Story is your archetype (ie Bounty Hunter), your Advanced Class is your Class. I'm not aware of any AAA MMO that allows you to change your Class. The ACs are not "Prestige Classes" from PnP DnD - and even if they were you can't change that either unless your DM is stupid.

I think it's you that are confused over definitions of Class and Advanced Class as they pertain to SWTOR.

SWTOR defines Class -> http://www.swtor.com/holonet/classes

SWTOR has a two stage system where you choose Class and then an Advanced Class before you can select a Role.

Most MMOs out there have a single stage, Class then Role.

For example, 'World of Warcraft' offers players a few Classes that can cover the three core Roles (DPS, Tank, Heal). In effect making a Paladin, Monk or Druid (especially the Druid as it allows for Heal, Tank, Ranged DPS and Melee DPS) Classes that have the in built functionality of an AC swap.

Respeccing within a given Advanced Class is just that, respeccing your abilities not your class.

Respeccing holds all the issues that allowing an AC swap does (players not having the right gear, not knowing their rotations, not having a clue about the end game OPs/PvP) and yet it is accepted. It is changing your Role and that is the core aspect of the character as they fall in any trinity based system.

SWTOR decided to separate out the Tank and Healer roles so that no Class had access to core abilities from tanking and healing at the same time. Mechanics wise an AC swap does not violate this restriction in any way.

I have always agreed that there are "a few" valid reasons to allow a one-time AC respec, so if you are trying to snare me in a "gotcha moment" you missed the mark. My capitulation to one-time respec is not a new trend.

One-time AC respect doesn't address any of the concerns that arise from the initial situation. If you are going to retain a one-time only stance you may as well not bother in the first place.

I didn't mention the field trainers to discount AC respec, I brought it up just to highlight that there is no need to go back to the fleet to do it. Traveling to the fleet is by no means restrictive.

Travelling back to the fleet is two - three loading screens to get back to where you were and prohibits the use in Warzones (not sure about OPs, but you'd have to have a pretty laid back group to wait for you). It's there to establish it as different to respeccing but not so prohibitive that no one would use it.

Yes by free I meant with 12xp. No one cares how much time you or any other player has available to play. Even without 12xp, toons can be leveled to 60 in ~ 50 hours.

I find it interesting that you consider 50 hours of anyone's life 'free'. The time spent doing pointless content (grinding out content for dailies is pointless in the eyes of many, especially given the severe lack of challenge) just to be able to do the content you do want to play (end game with pals) should be a prime concern for MMO developers.

Speaking of not having time to commit to the game; if people don't have time to play the game then they really ought not care too much about whether or not they can respec ... ya know since they aren't playing the game very much.

My idea is to try and broaden the appeal of an MMO to as wide an audience as possible. Not restrict it down to the smaller market place that has the time to spend but no loyalty to a product... and even less willingness to part with real money.

The convenience and flexibility has been there since the introduction of Legacy shells. My PT shares with my VG, My Mercs share with my Mando, my Jugs share with my my guardians and sent/mara, my agents share with my smugglers, my Sin shares with my shadow and my Sorc shares with my consular. So, I'd say between 12xp and Legacy shells there is plenty of convenience and flexibility.

Isn't this an argument for allowing AC swap?

One of the old arguments against allowing it was you would get players Needing on items their character couldn't use in their current AC to put in a set of gear their alternate AC could make use of. Legacy sets make any item fair game if you have a character that could make use of it.

Now, as I clearly stated, given that we will be able to purchase Level 60 tokens - I see no reason to disallow AC respec for the same price. I don't understand why you feel it should be cheaper. That does not make fiscal sense, as it is effectively the same concept. Purchasing an AC respec does not negate purchasing a level 60 (or many).

Getting a new level 60 character comes with all the bonuses of extra storage space as well as an additional character to run through content with lock outs (dailies/ weeklies/ OPs bosses).

Changing the AC is only a little more different than a respec. I think £5 per AC swap is reasonable.

The only game I can think of where Class respec was an option, the price still became prohibitive if you over-used the feature. Changing your class should not be done "willy-nilly" because it is balance breaking.

As mentioned above WoW effectively has 3 classes with inbuilt AC swapping for free.

The fact that you think it would be balance breaking suggests to me you do not understand the mechanics.

An AC swap does not give any additional abilities to a character. They remain either AC_A OR AC_B, they do not become AC_A AND AC_B. The mechanics of balance are preserved.

Further it eliminates any need to repeat stories. I keep hearing that "story" is what this game is all about. Why would Bioware encourage (ie) Bounty Hunters to only play once through and give them access to both ACs?

It doesn't eliminate any need to repeat stories. If you like playing through SWTOR for the content of story then you will go back and make as many alts as you like to go through the story. All it does is open up some flexibility for players to return to characters they have abandoned (the most often stated reason) and would prefer to play in the alternate spec. Note, I am not, nor have ever requested a Class swap feature.

Edited June 26, 2015 by Vhaegrant

[JediUltraMaster]

You know now with the instant 60 and restricting skills upon start up of said 60 they could easily implement an advanced class change at the start of expansion and restrict skills similar to instant 60s.

[Zharik]

Well over 2 years, almost a quarter million views and over 5700 posts (as of this post) and *still* no dev posts... at all.

 

Listen folks. It isn't going to happen. Not unless you are filthy rich in real life and offer them 50 million to make it happen, which means - it isn't going to happen.

 

Drop it.

 

Let this thread die.

 

/unplugslifesupport

/turnofflights

/closedoor

[Vhaegrant]

You know now with the instant 60 and restricting skills upon start up of said 60 they could easily implement an advanced class change at the start of expansion and restrict skills similar to instant 60s.

 

There's no restriction of AC skills on a new level 60. You may be thinking of the pre-set choices for those decisions made during levelling (romance options with companions etc...), or possibly the slow introduction of abilities over the first episodes tutorial style.

 

Training costs have been removed so there is no real restriction on acquiring abilities that come with your advanced class.

 

The use of pre-set choices for levelling decisions may be applicable if they ever chose to implement a Class or Faction swap feature. Even then, establishing a clean set of variables on a new level 60 may be a lot different than going back and overwriting existing variables on an old character that has been levelled to 60. Especially if you are looking at variables stored that were never intended to be altered in the future.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Vhaegrant

[JediUltraMaster]

There's no restriction of AC skills on a new level 60. You may be thinking of the pre-set choices for those decisions made during levelling (romance options with companions etc...), or possibly the slow introduction of abilities over the first episodes tutorial style.

 

Training costs have been removed so there is no real restriction on acquiring abilities that come with your advanced class.

 

The use of pre-set choices for levelling decisions may be applicable if they ever chose to implement a Class or Faction swap feature. Even then, establishing a clean set of variables on a new level 60 may be a lot different than going back and overwriting existing variables on an old character that has been levelled to 60. Especially if you are looking at variables stored that were never intended to be altered in the future.

 

Bullet point 2 http://dulfy.net/2015/07/15/swtor-fallen-empire-story-chapter-length-and-new-content/

[Aries_cz]

Bullet point 2 http://dulfy.net/2015/07/15/swtor-fallen-empire-story-chapter-length-and-new-content/

 

Which will presumably be a voluntary choice for new players.

Locking out abilities of skilled players would just be a giant flaming can on worms

[dbears]

One thing I've never understood is why they could do it on the live stream when showcasing new abilities pre-3.0 with a simple command code, but they still haven't translated that in to a consumable cartel market item.

 

I'm not for or against this. Couldn't care less really.

 

I also don't know much about programming. But would it really be that hard to make a consumable that's purchasable from the Cartel Market that runs the same command as they were doing so reset the advanced class on the stream? I know there were some bugs when they did it. Buy couldn't they just clean up the process a bit?

 

I mean, if it'll make the game money and they're capable of doing it, they'd do it. Since this would obviously bring more money to the game, it must be some kind of programming barrier preventing them from getting this in.

[Jimvinny]

One thing I've never understood is why they could do it on the live stream when showcasing new abilities pre-3.0 with a simple command code, but they still haven't translated that in to a consumable cartel market item.

 

I'm not for or against this. Couldn't care less really.

 

I also don't know much about programming. But would it really be that hard to make a consumable that's purchasable from the Cartel Market that runs the same command as they were doing so reset the advanced class on the stream? I know there were some bugs when they did it. Buy couldn't they just clean up the process a bit?

 

I mean, if it'll make the game money and they're capable of doing it, they'd do it. Since this would obviously bring more money to the game, it must be some kind of programming barrier preventing them from getting this in.

 

The only way for them to do it was to reset the characters level to 10. Is that what you think they should do? Why not just re-roll?

[dbears]

The only way for them to do it was to reset the characters level to 10. Is that what you think they should do? Why not just re-roll?

 

No that's not what I think they should do.

 

Also, a big factor for people who want this isn't the time it takes to level a new toon. It's all the unlocks (inventory, cargo, etc), companion affection and bound items that you don't get on a new toon. There's more reasons, but that's just a few.

 

Maybe if they find a way to have level boosts for existing characters instead of just new ones, they could package it together. Have a token to reset the character to 10 and allow them to change advanced class, then another token to boost them to 60.

 

It might be a good system because then when the level cap is 65, you get bumped down to 60 and have to relevel to 65 through the tutorial chapters.

[Gravord]

No that's not what I think they should do.

 

Also, a big factor for people who want this isn't the time it takes to level a new toon. It's all the unlocks (inventory, cargo, etc), companion affection and bound items that you don't get on a new toon. There's more reasons, but that's just a few.

 

Exactly. There are chars with plenty of achievements and work hours and its sad to loose it. Having option to switch my pureblood sith into silly togruta but no option to change advanced class? It have to change!

[Ruskaeth]

No, get this stupid notion out of your head. You are not going to be able to pay for your rerolling to the next fotm.

I'd like to point out that this was the first reply to this thread.

 

Not that it matters today when getting to max level takes ~13 hours. Ignoring that, tt was still first answer to this thread.

[Ruskaeth]

If anyone missed it, there has not been single developer comment for over two years to this thread. It's amazing how long BioWare takes to formulate their answers. They are really, really careful with communication. Can't we all just stop this thread and appreciate that?

[dlcman]

Their no response is a response.