ETA on Advanced Class change?

[LordArtemis]

I'd like to see something clearer myself, but given the fact that all the voiceovers have already been recorded, I think that it would be problematic to change the references to the "story class" in those voiceovers to reflect the AC or "CLASS".

 

I think that they could make it clearer by making a definitive statement, and changing the creation process to reflect that your AC is your class. They could this, IMO, either by:

 

Choose Gender

Choose Race

Choose Story

Choose Class

--Upon reaching level 10, your character would become the chosen class and gain access to the

chosen class skills, and skill points for allocation.

Customize

 

Enter World

 

--OR--

 

Choose Gender

Choose Race

Choose Story

--List the two classes available, upon reaching level 10, to the selected story

-- Make it mandatory that a class be selected by level 15. This could be done by not enabling the ability to

queue for WZ's or FP's, or access any zones other than fleet and the particular character's starter planet

until a class is selected.

Customize

 

Enter World

 

These are obviously not the only two ways to do this, though.

 

Some good ideas, and I realize changing the voice overs would be next to impossible. Perhaps that part would be fine. After all, in the Army you are still called a "Soldier" quite often even if you are an "Engineer" or "Combat Medic".

[Ratajack]

We both know what the screenshot would look like

 

Yes, we do. That makes it pretty clear evidence of AC as it relates to CLASS, IMO.

 

 

No, it doesn't. But it does state that the current dev team have given AC swapping serious consideration and think it will likely be added some time in the games lifespan.

 

I've maintained for months that I think we may EVENTUALLY see class changes implemented, but I do not see them being implemented in the foreseeable future.

 

I may be wrong, but I do not think the devs are even currently working on them. I think that class changes are no longer even on the wall of crazy. I think that the devs' total and absolute silence on class changes in over a year and a half speaks volumes as to how much emphasis they put on catering to people too averse to the effort required to actually level that new class (AC) that they want to play.

 

I think that the time may come when this game is failing , for whatever reason(s), and the devs decide to implement class (AC) changing in an attempt to retain as many players as possible. I do not think that time has yet arrived, though.

 

In the time that this thread alone has existed, any player wishing to play a different class (AC) has had ample time to level that new class (AC).

[Vhaegrant]

Its a good point. Ill have to think about that one.

 

It's a shame another games definition of Class has had such a large impact on this discussion. Personally I feel many of the old quotes were using a similar frame of reference. Maybe just because of its availability, a common frame or the need to appeal to the same sort of gamers.

 

SWTOR defines Class as the second stage of character choice you make (the first is faction) and it forms the core identity of your character. Going beyond the arbitrary selection of abilities it originally covered the key visual identifiers such as Appearance options (different for certain species but the tattoos are one of the reasons all of my Bounty Hunters are Humans), armour selection (barely there since the move to shells and adaptive armours). And, just as importantly the story elements you would encounter, the companions you would interact with and have available to quest with.

 

The Advanced Class stands as a point of divergence, a branch in levelling that doesn't stop you from acquiring the Class abilities, but does define the specific AC abilities and the roles you can specialise in.

As there are no story elements and limited customisation differences (sets weapon usage, probably a PvP consideration for the 'What You See Is What You Get' design school) the point of this choice is to segregate abilities away from their interaction with the specialisation trees and abilities of the other Advanced Classes.

 

Specialisation is the final choice and goes hand in hand with Advanced Class (if you don't select an AC you can't have a viable role at endgame. Just try tanking with no threat stance and no taunts )

This is largely ability based, although you may need to change the off hand (shield gen for tanks, generator for DPs and healers) and armour (again depending on how divergent the secondary stats are between roles). A few active abilities, mostly passive abilities that modify both Class abilities and Advanced Class abilities.

This is the point at which a characters Role is finally defined and optimised.

 

Now, the issue I have is that the vast majority of identifying characteristics and all of the emotive connection I have with a character stems from the initial Class selection, and I wouldn't want to alter that on a character (to be honest, I'd be more offended by the species change :/ )

The Advanced Class selection I can see from a game mechanics stance to separate out abilities from synergising too much (I can't help but keep on going back to tanks that can use the couple of self heals, or hybrid tank/healers). And provide a small enough pool of potential builds that the designers can create challenging content for teams in Operations (and even then it's a difficult line when the same abilities are carried over into the land of PvP)

 

If you are okay with allowing a player to swap roles (respec) I don't understand why it is such an issue to allow them access to the full range of roles, as long as the associated AC abilities remain segregated.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Vhaegrant

[Vhaegrant]

I've maintained for months that I think we may EVENTUALLY see class changes implemented, but I do not see them being implemented in the foreseeable future.

I wouldn't realistically see them being implemented until there was an associated feature to drive the uptake.

I may be wrong, but I do not think the devs are even currently working on them. I think that class changes are no longer even on the wall of crazy. I think that the devs' total and absolute silence on class changes in over a year and a half speaks volumes as to how much emphasis they put on catering to people too averse to the effort required to actually level that new class (AC) that they want to play.

What, you mean similar to the silence that all the threads on Player Housing and Legacy Banks had until just recently?

I think that the time may come when this game is failing , for whatever reason(s), and the devs decide to implement class (AC) changing in an attempt to retain as many players as possible. I do not think that time has yet arrived, though.

If a feature is good enough to retain players it's good enough to consider at any point in a games lifespan. I would imagine the biggest threat to SWTOR will be when the licence swings around for renewal.

In the time that this thread alone has existed, any player wishing to play a different class (AC) has had ample time to level that new class (AC).

Not all forum time is time away from the game

[Ratajack]

I wouldn't realistically see them being implemented until there was an associated feature to drive the uptake.

 

It seems that we agree that there is NO pressing need for class changing atm. Why the clamoring for a feature for which there is NO pressing need?

 

What, you mean similar to the silence that all the threads on Player Housing and Legacy Banks had until just recently?

 

Do you mean the player housing that will be implemented just about the time that Wildstar (a game featuring player housing, not so coincidentally) is released? If they had been working on player housing all along, then why is it not ready? The same question for legacy banks. As I said earlier, I do not think they were working on player housing, but rather chose to begin developing these features in response to outside forces (upcoming game featuring these features).

 

If a feature is good enough to retain players it's good enough to consider at any point in a games lifespan. I would imagine the biggest threat to SWTOR will be when the licence swings around for renewal.

 

Not necessarily. Some features may seem to be a good idea, but ultimately prove to be detrimental. In addition, there often comes a point at which there is "nothing to lose" by doing certain things.

 

Let's look at another game's implementation to changes regarding healing and dungeon difficulty. There was a vocal minority on the forums for that game that dungeons were too easy and healing was boring as there was no challenge. The developers of that game made dungeons harder at the start of one expansion, requiring CC, changing healing to make it harder, etc. There was a massive exodus from that game coinciding with the implementation of these "highly desired changes". It seems that the masses, including many of those clamoring for these changes, found them to be not to their liking, to say the least. Ultimately, the developers of that game had to reverse those design decisions.

 

Is this one of those things that seems like a good idea that could be ultimately detrimental to the game if implemented? I think that it is possible that it is. Could there come a time when BW has "nothing to lose" by implementing class (AC) changes if this game starts to fail? Yes, but that does not mean that implementing class (AC) changes now would necessarily be a good idea.

 

Not all forum time is time away from the game

 

My point was that this thread has existed for over a year. Can you honestly tell me that a player cannot level a new class (AC) in that amount of time? Sure there may be rare exceptions, such as someone in the military being deployed for an extended amount of time, but the vast majority of the game's players could easily reach max level and be fully geared in a year, IMO.

[Vhaegrant]

It seems that we agree that there is NO pressing need for class changing atm. Why the clamoring for a feature for which there is NO pressing need?

Why the clamouring against a feature for which there is no pressing need?

Besides which, participation in a restricted forum is not necessarily a good indicator of final uptake, nor of overall demand.

Do you mean the player housing that will be implemented just about the time that Wildstar (a game featuring player housing, not so coincidentally) is released? If they had been working on player housing all along, then why is it not ready? The same question for legacy banks. As I said earlier, I do not think they were working on player housing, but rather chose to begin developing these features in response to outside forces (upcoming game featuring these features).

I don't think it has that much to do with Wildstar (if it was I think PvP and warzones would be getting more of an overhaul with more maps and modes). After all there are many other MMOs out there already that have housing before SWTOR was released, perhaps most notably SWG (and probably the source of much of the demand for player housing in these forums came from ex-SWG players). Guild Ships were mentioned way back at the guild convention. It's a case of prioritising content and development with the resources they have.

 

Not necessarily. Some features may seem to be a good idea, but ultimately prove to be detrimental. In addition, there often comes a point at which there is "nothing to lose" by doing certain things.

 

Let's look at another game's implementation to changes regarding healing and dungeon difficulty. There was a vocal minority on the forums for that game that dungeons were too easy and healing was boring as there was no challenge. The developers of that game made dungeons harder at the start of one expansion, requiring CC, changing healing to make it harder, etc. There was a massive exodus from that game coinciding with the implementation of these "highly desired changes". It seems that the masses, including many of those clamoring for these changes, found them to be not to their liking, to say the least. Ultimately, the developers of that game had to reverse those design decisions.

 

Is this one of those things that seems like a good idea that could be ultimately detrimental to the game if implemented? I think that it is possible that it is. Could there come a time when BW has "nothing to lose" by implementing class (AC) changes if this game starts to fail? Yes, but that does not mean that implementing class (AC) changes now would necessarily be a good idea.

So, at a time a game is failing and on the way out you think it would be sensible to divert development resources to a system no longer needed? It is more likely the game would switch over to maintenance mode with no further development of features.

As to dungeon difficulty, it is a poor example as it just demonstrates how the casual gamer base tends to be the core support for an MMO.

 

My point was that this thread has existed for over a year. Can you honestly tell me that a player cannot level a new class (AC) in that amount of time? Sure there may be rare exceptions, such as someone in the military being deployed for an extended amount of time, but the vast majority of the game's players could easily reach max level and be fully geared in a year, IMO.

And I still fail to see what relevance that has to discussing the merits of an AC swap on a forum.

[LordArtemis]

GS would be a good example of something implemented that had high demand but was not received as well as I expect they expected.

 

And THAT was because they didn't actually LISTEN to the folks that were requesting the feature.

 

The most popular request was simply the following....

 

Something very similar to either Rogue Squadron or Battlefront 2.

 

What we got was something closer to Rebel Assault. The feature was missing the skill based combat of RS and BF2, and had a wide reticule with mouse pointing like RA. It also was missing the ground element of BF2, with capital ship combat.

 

They assumed that a feature that had one small part of RA would be enough to make folks happy...I am of the opinion that most were not, though it is more popular than the old space combat feature.

 

Most of the time the problem is that they take an idea from the community and run with it, instead of actually taking into consideration what players are asking for and finding a way to provide exactly what is requested.

[Vhaegrant]

GS would be a good example of something implemented that had high demand but was not received as well as I expect they expected.

 

And THAT was because they didn't actually LISTEN to the folks that were requesting the feature.

 

The most popular request was simply the following....

 

Something very similar to either Rogue Squadron or Battlefront 2.

 

What we got was something closer to Rebel Assault. The feature was missing the skill based combat of RS and BF2, and had a wide reticule with mouse pointing like RA. It also was missing the ground element of BF2, with capital ship combat.

 

They assumed that a feature that had one small part of RA would be enough to make folks happy...I am of the opinion that most were not, though it is more popular than the old space combat feature.

 

Most of the time the problem is that they take an idea from the community and run with it, instead of actually taking into consideration what players are asking for and finding a way to provide exactly what is requested.

 

The biggest demand I saw in the forums was for an off-rails team based PvP space shooter. That's what Bioware delivered.

I think it was unrealistic to expect them to deliver an integrated ground based component at the same time (I remember one of the dev blogs talking about how the maps were made to feel bigger because they just shrank the ships down)

Although I think their biggest failing was the inability to open GSF progression across all characters (most people I talked to had one character for GSF and that was it, would love to know if the metrics support this).

 

PvP is not a big draw to the casual player base because it is such a grind to break through the gear barrier and the complete frustration of coming up against teamspeak coordinated premade groups.

Personally I'd like to see a separate tier of PvP that removes gear (not bolster, a default rating for everyone) from the equation and only allows you to queue solo. You know just to see if relying on individual skill made the game more enjoyable. But, that's really a discussion for a different thread

Edited May 22, 2014 by Vhaegrant

[Ratajack]

Why the clamouring against a feature for which there is no pressing need?

Besides which, participation in a restricted forum is not necessarily a good indicator of final uptake, nor of overall demand.

 

You answered your own question. See highlighted part.

 

I don't think it has that much to do with Wildstar (if it was I think PvP and warzones would be getting more of an overhaul with more maps and modes). After all there are many other MMOs out there already that have housing before SWTOR was released, perhaps most notably SWG (and probably the source of much of the demand for player housing in these forums came from ex-SWG players). Guild Ships were mentioned way back at the guild convention. It's a case of prioritising content and development with the resources they have.

 

SWG no longer exists. It is true that there are games in existence that already have housing. I cannot think of any that were released after SWTOR, although I admit that I do not fervently follow every MMO in development. There may be some of which I am not aware. It stands to reason that any game featuring that was already in existence when this game was released does not have the same potential to take players away from this game that a nice shiny new game with player housing would have, though. The imminent release of a nice, shiny new game featuring player housing may well have been the impetus behind a change in development priorities with regards to player housing.

 

So, at a time a game is failing and on the way out you think it would be sensible to divert development resources to a system no longer needed? It is more likely the game would switch over to maintenance mode with no further development of features.

As to dungeon difficulty, it is a poor example as it just demonstrates how the casual gamer base tends to be the core support for an MMO.

 

The point in that example is that what may seem to be a good idea, and a highly desired change, may well be detrimental to the game.

 

And I still fail to see what relevance that has to discussing the merits of an AC swap on a forum.

 

The relevance of the fact that the vast majority of players have had ample time to level and gear that new class (AC) that they wish to play is the difference between expecting someone else to solve your problem for you (asking for handouts) and actually taking the initiative to solve that problem for yourself (level that new character).

 

IMO, the former is laziness while the latter shows much more self reliance, for lack of a better term. IMO, the latter should be encouraged and the former discouraged.

[Vhaegrant]

You answered your own question. See highlighted part.

Why the clamouring against a feature for which there is no pressing need?

Besides which, participation in a restricted forum is not necessarily a good indicator of final uptake, nor of overall demand.

Please, if you feel the need to highlight a quote at least try to understand the point being made. If you think I'm wasting my time arguing for an AC swap (or even just a dev confirmation as to whether it is still on the cards) what exactly are you doing?

SWG no longer exists. It is true that there are games in existence that already have housing. I cannot think of any that were released after SWTOR, although I admit that I do not fervently follow every MMO in development. There may be some of which I am not aware. It stands to reason that any game featuring that was already in existence when this game was released does not have the same potential to take players away from this game that a nice shiny new game with player housing would have, though. The imminent release of a nice, shiny new game featuring player housing may well have been the impetus behind a change in development priorities with regards to player housing.

SWG may no longer exist, but the point was that a good many of the players came over to SWTOR (you know Star Wars link and all that) and were one of the groups of supporters for player housing being planet based rather than ship based.

TBH I'm surprised SWTOR didn't launch without at least a geaneric 'Trophy' room onboard the ships with which to have a visual representation of triumphs in PvP and PvE but I guess we get that now. I think the player attachment to achievements will be stronger as a visual item confers far more of a link than a little pop up and a list.

After many of the comments about the art style of SWTOR being far too cartoony I can't see Wildstar being a major threat.

The point in that example is that what may seem to be a good idea, and a highly desired change, may well be detrimental to the game.

You have to understand the reason behind why it failed though. You really don't draw more people into a game by making it more difficult. Sure, introduce a higher difficulty level if you must but you still need to cater to the wider skill base. And, unfortunately the general skill base of most MMOs is pretty low for the majority of players.

The relevance of the fact that the vast majority of players have had ample time to level and gear that new class (AC) that they wish to play is the difference between expecting someone else to solve your problem for you (asking for handouts) and actually taking the initiative to solve that problem for yourself (level that new character).

What? even if they started playing yesterday?

The duration of a thread on a forum has zero reflection on the time players spend in game.

It's not asking for a handout, the cheapest I've seen the AC swap feature touted at was 1,000ccs (about £5).

IMO, the former is laziness while the latter shows much more self reliance, for lack of a better term. IMO, the latter should be encouraged and the former discouraged.

It's a convenience feature for those who would like to use it while conferring no significant advantage, and has the potential to return something financially back to the game. Unlike those players who just level through the story to 50 without paying a penny.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Vhaegrant

[Ratajack]

 

What? even if they started playing yesterday?

The duration of a thread on a forum has zero reflection on the time players spend in game.

It's not asking for a handout, the cheapest I've seen the AC swap feature touted at was 1,000ccs (about £5).

 

 

The length of time that welfare has been in existence has zero reflection on the time that a person is eligible for welfare.

 

Welfare has been around for decades. If someone loses their job tomorrow, is it better for that person to expect the government to solve their problem of no income by expecting to collect welfare or for that person to take the initiative to find a new job?

 

The specifics may be different, but the principle is the same. In one case, that person expects someone else to solve their problem and in the other they take the initiative to solve their problem themselves.

[Vhaegrant]

The length of time that welfare has been in existence has zero reflection on the time that a person is eligible for welfare.

 

Welfare has been around for decades. If someone loses their job tomorrow, is it better for that person to expect the government to solve their problem of no income by expecting to collect welfare or for that person to take the initiative to find a new job?

 

The specifics may be different, but the principle is the same. In one case, that person expects someone else to solve their problem and in the other they take the initiative to solve their problem themselves.

What has welfare and jobs and government got to do with a game that should be providing a sense of fun and escapism away from those mundanities of real life?

AC swap has no impact on you if you want to level up another character.

But, if you want to stay playing with your friends and engaging in end game content it is a convenience feature that substitutes a small donation for your time.

[ZahirS]

Still hoping for a dev response, met a GM in-game but forgot to ask.

 

People sometimes forget what they really want.

[Ratajack]

What has welfare and jobs and government got to do with a game that should be providing a sense of fun and escapism away from those mundanities of real life?

AC swap has no impact on you if you want to level up another character.

But, if you want to stay playing with your friends and engaging in end game content it is a convenience feature that substitutes a small donation for your time.

 

Whether you talk about a game or real life, certain principles apply to both. One of those principles, IMO, is that some things should be earned and not simply handed out.

 

I am not in favor of allowing the creation of max level characters with all companions at max level affection with all companion unlocks, all chosen crew skills at 450 and BIS gear. It would be a "time saving convenience" if they allowed the creation of such characters, though, would it not?

 

Why can that person not continue playing with their friends and engaging in end game content on the character that they leveled while they use time not spent engaging in end game content to actually level the new class (AC) that they now want to play?

 

It is NOT a case of one or the other, necessarily. As has been stated many times previously, there is NO time limit on leveling. BW is NOT going to delete that new character if it does not reach max level within a certain time.

 

Most of the friends I have will even help to level that new character. Double XP weekends and XP boosts make it even easier to level that new class (AC).

[Vhaegrant]

Whether you talk about a game or real life, certain principles apply to both. One of those principles, IMO, is that some things should be earned and not simply handed out.

In other words you feel an infringement on your investment of time and personal validation from those that want to have fun... in a game... shocking

And again, 'simply handed out' is pure overstatement. Few of those seriously discussing the merits of an AC swap feature feel it should be free. And they would still only have a single character, a person who wanted to take the time to level an alt of the same class would have two characters with all the benefits that brings.

I am not in favor of allowing the creation of max level characters with all companions at max level affection with all companion unlocks, all chosen crew skills at 450 and BIS gear. It would be a "time saving convenience" if they allowed the creation of such characters, though, would it not?

Hey, lets jump in with a worst case scenario, more hyperbole and overstatement!

The game has a hybrid model with a cartel (cash) shop as a central point. The basic theory behind this is get the players in for free and maybe they'll stick around long enough to spend a few coins on unlocks and fluffy stuff.

There are gamers out there that will play through the story content to 50 (pretty much the limit at which class story goes to) and then role another class or just leave without having spent a penny on the game.

Levelling companion affection is simple as is crew skills.

BiS gear doesn't really break the game as long as it is only 'Best in Sot' and not 'Better than Best in Slot'. I wouldn't really care for it that much, but it wouldn't rock my fragile little world if they did. I survived the period a while back where crafters could craft BiS mods just fine and look how much they gouged the market for. Now, at least the best crafters can put out is one tier below BiS (and still at ludicrously high prices). I wouldn't really want to see BiS mods in the cartel market, not because it is a short cut but because it would destroy the crafting community and those guys and gals have precious little to hold onto as it is.

As for a Max level character, I'd say allowing a player to purchase a character to level 50 is fair, after all they could play to that level for free anyway. As for the story they bypass, put 3 default settings in at purchase (Light/Grey/Dark) that sets the story choices to those defaults. Then the player has to purchase 'Rise of the Hutt Cartel' as a standalone purchase or unlocked through one months sub to advance to 55.

 

Why can that person not continue playing with their friends and engaging in end game content on the character that they leveled while they use time not spent engaging in end game content to actually level the new class (AC) that they now want to play?

In my experience it's because at end game the character does not work as they thought it would. Either from the game mechanics or the subjective experience of the player. It's hard enough to get a group of my friends online at the best of times, I'd rather they all enjoyed themselves going through an HM FP or OP rather than feel they are obligated to play a character they hate because other wise the group couldn't play.

Many of my friends play other games, have other time commitments, are attached to their character and just want access to the other roles and have no desire to go through the levelling process again.

It is NOT a case of one or the other, necessarily. As has been stated many times previously, there is NO time limit on leveling. BW is NOT going to delete that new character if it does not reach max level within a certain time.

No there is no time on levelling. But, the vast majority of adults have other time commitments, that are more pressing than playing through the same story because of artificial restrictions on AC flexibility.

Most of the friends I have will even help to level that new character. Double XP weekends and XP boosts make it even easier to level that new class (AC).

Yeah. That's so much fun. Facerolling content because a level 55 is running content with you. Not to mention overlevelling the content because of massive XP boosts. If you are so keen to bypass the core levelling experience (the story and choices) in these ways why is it so offensive when someone wishes to pay Bioware a small amount to allow them access to the other AC on a class they have already put some time into?

Edited May 22, 2014 by Vhaegrant

[Ratajack]

In other words you feel an infringement on your investment of time and personal validation from those that want to have fun... in a game... shocking

And again, 'simply handed out' is pure overstatement. Few of those seriously discussing the merits of an AC swap feature feel it should be free. And they would still only have a single character, a person who wanted to take the time to level an alt of the same class would have two characters with all the benefits that brings.

 

It is still expecting somebody else (in this case, BW) to solve a perceived "problem" rather than actually takin the initiative to solve that problem for themselves. As I said, IMO, the latter should be encouraged and the former should not. That type of enabling, even in a video game, only reinforces the "GIMME! GIMME! GIMME!" attitude that seems to be so prevalent these days.

 

Hey, lets jump in with a worst case scenario, more hyperbole and overstatement!

The game has a hybrid model with a cartel (cash) shop as a central point. The basic theory behind this is get the players in for free and maybe they'll stick around long enough to spend a few coins on unlocks and fluffy stuff.

There are gamers out there that will play through the story content to 50 (pretty much the limit at which class story goes to) and then role another class or just leave without having spent a penny on the game.

Levelling companion affection is simple as is crew skills.

BiS gear doesn't really break the game as long as it is only 'Best in Sot' and not 'Better than Best in Slot'. I wouldn't really care for it that much, but it wouldn't rock my fragile little world if they did. I survived the period a while back where crafters could craft BiS mods just fine and look how much they gouged the market for. Now, at least the best crafters can put out is one tier below BiS (and still at ludicrously high prices). I wouldn't really want to see BiS mods in the cartel market, not because it is a short cut but because it would destroy the crafting community and those guys and gals have precious little to hold onto as it is.

As for a Max level character, I'd say allowing a player to purchase a character to level 50 is fair, after all they could play to that level for free anyway. As for the story they bypass, put 3 default settings in at purchase (Light/Grey/Dark) that sets the story choices to those defaults. Then the player has to purchase 'Rise of the Hutt Cartel' as a standalone purchase or unlocked through one months sub to advance to 55.

 

So, you're ok with allowing people to buy a new class, but not BIS gear or max level characters? Why is one ok, and the others not? After all, they are both just conveniences that allow people to bypass effort to which they are averse.

 

 

In my experience it's because at end game the character does not work as they thought it would. Either from the game mechanics or the subjective experience of the player. It's hard enough to get a group of my friends online at the best of times, I'd rather they all enjoyed themselves going through an HM FP or OP rather than feel they are obligated to play a character they hate because other wise the group couldn't play.

Many of my friends play other games, have other time commitments, are attached to their character and just want access to the other roles and have no desire to go through the levelling process again.

 

Here we have the crux of the issue, an aversion to effort. I know there's a word that fits.

 

It really does not take that long to level a new character, especially if those friends help. You can claim that it is difficult to get everyone together at one time, but it seems to be no problem for something requiring effort to which they are not averse.

 

 

No there is no time on levelling. But, the vast majority of adults have other time commitments, that are more pressing than playing through the same story because of artificial restrictions on AC flexibility.

 

The inability to change one's class in other games is ok, but in this game the restriction on class changing is "artificial"? That restriction was put in place by the devs.

 

Any game has rules set in place by the designer(s)/developer(s) of that game. Is it an "artificial" rule that I have to pay a luxury tax in Monopoly when I land on that space? Is it an "artificial" rule that a flush beats a straight in poker? Is it an "artificial" rule that

 

Yeah. That's so much fun. Facerolling content because a level 55 is running content with you. Not to mention overlevelling the content because of massive XP boosts. If you are so keen to bypass the core levelling experience (the story and choices) in these ways why is it so offensive when someone wishes to pay Bioware a small amount to allow them access to the other AC on a class they have already put some time into?

 

If a player leveled an mercenary, they did NOT put the time into the powertech class. They put the time into the bounty hunter STORY. Once again, by your own admission, if you do a /who on the fleet you will see the vast majority of characters in the bounty hunter story line over level 10 will show a CLASS of mercenary or powertech, NOT bounty hunter.

 

I never said I was keen to bypass the core leveling experience. I simply said that the leveling process could be made faster by getting friends to help with that process, or using the XP boosts and double XP weekends.

 

When my friends help me level, we will run with characters fairly close to the same level. We all have characters spread out from level 1 to 55.

[Vhaegrant]

It is still expecting somebody else (in this case, BW) to solve a perceived "problem" rather than actually takin the initiative to solve that problem for themselves. As I said, IMO, the latter should be encouraged and the former should not. That type of enabling, even in a video game, only reinforces the "GIMME! GIMME! GIMME!" attitude that seems to be so prevalent these days.

Quite a few of the gamers I know are put off by the old grind mentality and time sink aspects of the MMO style. Some of that is justified, although with SWTOR I feel most of the enjoyment and Star Wars is to be found in the Class stories. Personally I see two sets of gamers in MMOs these days, those that are there to level characters and those that are just in it for the end game.

This second set of gamers benefits as they are able to play the game they want to play,. I don't think you make fans of a game by forcing them to relevel through content that they found dull and repetitive the first time around.

So, you're ok with allowing people to buy a new class, but not BIS gear or max level characters? Why is one ok, and the others not? After all, they are both just conveniences that allow people to bypass effort to which they are averse.

You're not buying a new class, you're switching the Advanced Class of your character.

Purchasing BiS mods for CCs destroys the crafting community over night.

Purchasing max level characters would be a hard sell (I'm not against it in theory) I just set my sights on a more realistic implementation, I think an entrance level for a purchased character should be the same as the maximum level attainable purely through free-to-play.

Here we have the crux of the issue, an aversion to effort. I know there's a word that fits.

It's not an aversion of effort if a player has put the time into levelling up a character. There are still 7 other classes for them to level up.

It really does not take that long to level a new character, especially if those friends help. You can claim that it is difficult to get everyone together at one time, but it seems to be no problem for something requiring effort to which they are not averse.

On average it's taken me about 80 hours to complete through to the start of Makeb, with my regular available time that's anywhere between 2-3 months of play.

The inability to change one's class in other games is ok, but in this game the restriction on class changing is "artificial"? That restriction was put in place by the devs.

How other games do things is up to their Devs. Things can change.

Any game has rules set in place by the designer(s)/developer(s) of that game. Is it an "artificial" rule that I have to pay a luxury tax in Monopoly when I land on that space? Is it an "artificial" rule that a flush beats a straight in poker? Is it an "artificial" rule that

And, depending on player demand some rules can change. Every season of Formula 1 that roles around there are new restrictions to be implemented. There are quite a few variants of Poker. And, around a board game players can set their own 'House rules' if they want.

If a player leveled an mercenary, they did NOT put the time into the powertech class. They put the time into the bounty hunter STORY. Once again, by your own admission, if you do a /who on the fleet you will see the vast majority of characters in the bounty hunter story line over level 10 will show a CLASS of mercenary or powertech, NOT bounty hunter.

Powertech is an Advanced Class, Bounty Hunter is the Class no matter how many times you want to impose your definition on the subject.

If a player levelled as a melee DPS they didn't put the time in as a Tank and yet they can switch out their role fairly easily.

And, I'd say the role is a far more important aspect of what defines a character in the game.

I never said I was keen to bypass the core leveling experience. I simply said that the leveling process could be made faster by getting friends to help with that process, or using the XP boosts and double XP weekends.

 

When my friends help me level, we will run with characters fairly close to the same level. We all have characters spread out from level 1 to 55.

So, instead of paying a little bit to switch over the Advanced Class to carry on playing with their friends, or to catch up with their friends in a reasonable time frame. You think it's far better that a prospective player is forced to endure an element of the game they do not enjoy?

From my observations on the guilds I've been in players turn up to do OPs on OPs night and then disappear. Levelling was always seen as a solo activity get back to us when we can run some level 50+ FPs with you.

[Ratajack]

Quite a few of the gamers I know are put off by the old grind mentality and time sink aspects of the MMO style. Some of that is justified, although with SWTOR I feel most of the enjoyment and Star Wars is to be found in the Class stories. Personally I see two sets of gamers in MMOs these days, those that are there to level characters and those that are just in it for the end game.

This second set of gamers benefits as they are able to play the game they want to play,. I don't think you make fans of a game by forcing them to relevel through content that they found dull and repetitive the first time around.

 

You're not buying a new class, you're switching the Advanced Class of your character.

Purchasing BiS mods for CCs destroys the crafting community over night.

Purchasing max level characters would be a hard sell (I'm not against it in theory) I just set my sights on a more realistic implementation, I think an entrance level for a purchased character should be the same as the maximum level attainable purely through free-to-play.

 

It's not an aversion of effort if a player has put the time into levelling up a character. There are still 7 other classes for them to level up.

 

On average it's taken me about 80 hours to complete through to the start of Makeb, with my regular available time that's anywhere between 2-3 months of play.

 

How other games do things is up to their Devs. Things can change.

 

And, depending on player demand some rules can change. Every season of Formula 1 that roles around there are new restrictions to be implemented. There are quite a few variants of Poker. And, around a board game players can set their own 'House rules' if they want.

 

Powertech is an Advanced Class, Bounty Hunter is the Class no matter how many times you want to impose your definition on the subject.

If a player levelled as a melee DPS they didn't put the time in as a Tank and yet they can switch out their role fairly easily.

And, I'd say the role is a far more important aspect of what defines a character in the game.

 

So, instead of paying a little bit to switch over the Advanced Class to carry on playing with their friends, or to catch up with their friends in a reasonable time frame. You think it's far better that a prospective player is forced to endure an element of the game they do not enjoy?

From my observations on the guilds I've been in players turn up to do OPs on OPs night and then disappear. Levelling was always seen as a solo activity get back to us when we can run some level 50+ FPs with you.

 

So, in a nutshell, you want "someone else", in this case BW, to solve a perceived "problem" of a player who made a choice that they ACKNOWLEDGED AND CONFIRMED was the choice they wanted to make and understood was a PERMANENT choice, by catering to players who are too averse to the effort of leveling a new class.

 

I guess we'll just have to make it so that no one ever has to do anything in the game that they don't like. Just come and whine enough on the forums and expect BW to hand you whatever you want. No one should EVER be expected to have to live with ANY consequences for ANY decision they make. There's always SOME reason to play the victim.

 

Whoa is me. BW is persecuting me because they won't hand me that new class I want to play. They are being unfair expecting me to actually put forth some effort and level that new class. I know I can level a new character in very little play time, but I am too averse to the effort required to do so, and I want to do something else. Why are they being so unfair? I know I confirmed that I was making the choice I wanted to make, but I made that choice at level 10, so I should not be held accountable and I should not have to deal with the consequences of a choice I made.

Edited May 23, 2014 by Ratajack

[Vhaegrant]

So, in a nutshell, you want "someone else", in this case BW, to solve a perceived "problem" of a player who made a choice that they ACKNOWLEDGED AND CONFIRMED was the choice they wanted to make and understood was a PERMANENT choice, by catering to players who are too averse to the effort of leveling a new class.

 

I guess we'll just have to make it so that no one ever has to do anything in the game that they don't like. Just come and whine enough on the forums and expect BW to hand you whatever you want. No one should EVER be expected to have to live with ANY consequences for ANY decision they make. There's always SOME reason to play the victim.

 

Whoa is me. BW is persecuting me because they won't hand me that new class I want to play. They are being unfair expecting me to actually put forth some effort and level that new class. I know I can level a new character in very little play time, but I am too averse to the effort required to do so, and I want to do something else. Why are they being so unfair? I know I confirmed that I was making the choice I wanted to make, but I made that choice at level 10, so I should not be held accountable and I should not have to deal with the consequences of a choice I made.

 

The biggest consequence Bioware should be interested in is if their actions result in a financial return large enough to justify their investment in development.

You may think time the biggest aspect of validation, for me it's fun. If a person is having fun playing an aspect of the game they enjoy they are more likely to dip into their pocket for those vanity items.

They are certainly going to feel less willing to pay extra if they feel forced to drop a character they were playing to go back to square one.

AC swap isn't going to destroy the game, it's a convenience feature that some would use and some wouldn't.

 

What you have is a good case of the 'I play the game THIS way, so should every one else!'.

While I have no issue with the way the game currently works, having been here from day one I've seen a vast number of changes, the majority of them being convenience aspects that help to reduce time sinks (just look at how much earlier you get sprint and speeders now, can use speeders in space ports, can bypass the orbital station when returning to your ship, get fast travel tokens at the end of a chapter, legacy unlocks to travel to specific location, travel terminals to all the daily areas... none of these were in the game at launch).

I'm not going to loose any sleep if the AC swap doesn't make it into the game, nearly completed my goal of 16 level 55s anyway (just got Sage, Assassin and Operative to go, oh and a hgandful of levels on my sentinel), but it's a feature that I can't see any major design issues with. Part of me wishes it had been in from launch along with some of the other ideas that were tested in Beta like 'role kits' for companions and all equipment being shells. It certainly would make the class progression feel more logical and open the ACs to future expansion.

Edited May 23, 2014 by Vhaegrant

[Ratajack]

The biggest consequence Bioware should be interested in is if their actions result in a financial return large enough to justify their investment in development.

You may think time the biggest aspect of validation, for me it's fun. If a person is having fun playing an aspect of the game they enjoy they are more likely to dip into their pocket for those vanity items.

They are certainly going to feel less willing to pay extra if they feel forced to drop a character they were playing to go back to square one.

AC swap isn't going to destroy the game, it's a convenience feature that some would use and some wouldn't.

 

What you have is a good case of the 'I play the game THIS way, so should every one else!'.

While I have no issue with the way the game currently works, having been here from day one I've seen a vast number of changes, the majority of them being convenience aspects that help to reduce time sinks (just look at how much earlier you get sprint and speeders now, can use speeders in space ports, can bypass the orbital station when returning to your ship, get fast travel tokens at the end of a chapter, legacy unlocks to travel to specific location, travel terminals to all the daily areas... none of these were in the game at launch).

I'm not going to loose any sleep if the AC swap doesn't make it into the game, nearly completed my goal of 16 level 55s anyway (just got Sage, Assassin and Operative to go, oh and a hgandful of levels on my sentinel), but it's a feature that I can't see any major design issues with. Part of me wishes it had been in from launch along with some of the other ideas that were tested in Beta like 'role kits' for companions and all equipment being shells. It certainly would make the class progression feel more logical and open the ACs to future expansion.

 

I do not have a case of 'I play the game THIS way, so should every one else!'. I also do not have a case of "cater to me and let me play the game the way I want to play it and to heck with the way it was designed". I play within the rules set by the devs. I do not come to the forums playing the victim, or defending and enabling those playing the victim or those who wish not to have to accept the consequences for their actions or choices.

 

The funny thing about those "conveniences" you mentioned--"just look at how much earlier you get sprint and speeders now, can use speeders in space ports, can bypass the orbital station when returning to your ship, get fast travel tokens at the end of a chapter, legacy unlocks to travel to specific location, travel terminals to all the daily areas" is that they only make it faster to get from point A to point B. The player still has to go from point A to point B.

 

Those "conveniences" do not make it possible to skip the leveling process. The player still has to EARN the XP required to level.

 

The devs can make any changes they see fit to make. So far those changes have been COSMETIC or simply time saving, but NOT to enable players to skip the leveling process. They have made it easier to level, though, even if some are too averse to the effort required to level, instead preferring to ask for handouts.

[Vhaegrant]

I do not have a case of 'I play the game THIS way, so should every one else!'. I also do not have a case of "cater to me and let me play the game the way I want to play it and to heck with the way it was designed". I play within the rules set by the devs. I do not come to the forums playing the victim, or defending and enabling those playing the victim or those who wish not to have to accept the consequences for their actions or choices.

So if the Devs changed the rules to allow AC swap you wouldn't have an issue with it?

The funny thing about those "conveniences" you mentioned--"just look at how much earlier you get sprint and speeders now, can use speeders in space ports, can bypass the orbital station when returning to your ship, get fast travel tokens at the end of a chapter, legacy unlocks to travel to specific location, travel terminals to all the daily areas" is that they only make it faster to get from point A to point B. The player still has to go from point A to point B.

That was an example, there were plenty more. Some of them make the gaining of xp easier.

Those "conveniences" do not make it possible to skip the leveling process. The player still has to EARN the XP required to level.

The player still has to earn the XP to level. They are not gaining an extra character. They are swapping over an ability set (all be it a different ability set but really not that much different from the respec of changing specialisation and role)

The devs can make any changes they see fit to make. So far those changes have been COSMETIC or simply time saving, but NOT to enable players to skip the leveling process. They have made it easier to level, though, even if some are too averse to the effort required to level, instead preferring to ask for handouts.

So all the balancing and changes to abilities across the various classes has been cosmetic?

And, again, you are not skipping any levelling process because you are not gaining an additional character.

You constantly state how easy and quick it is to level up a character, if that is the case why should it be seen as an imperitive against allowing AC swapping? I could understand it more if it was a difficult process that actually exposed a player to the skills they need at end game but as it stands its there for those that like story, and watching the flashy animations as mobs drop dead left, right and centre.

 

[edit: That's me away for the weekend now. Should be back on the 27th for an anniversary post, I may even buy a cupcake with a candle to celebrate ]

Edited May 23, 2014 by Vhaegrant

[ZahirS]

Let me say this clear to back up Vhaegrant too.

 

Ratajack is against things that will surely help this game both in revenue and gameplay, so please listen to the wookie instead of the rat..

 

P.S also you dont "earn" an advannced class, you earn XP and skillpoints.

Edited May 23, 2014 by ZahirS

[Ratajack]

So if the Devs changed the rules to allow AC swap you wouldn't have an issue with it?

 

I would have a problem with it. I would have to make the choice as to whether or not I would coninue to play a game that caters to the "lazy, entitled have to have it now and for as little effort as possible crowd" to such an extent. What I would not do is to come to the forums whining and crying, playing the victim, expecting BW to change the game to suit me.

 

That was an example, there were plenty more. Some of them make the gaining of xp easier.

 

The player still has to EARN that XP. It may be easier to do so, but the XP still has to be EARNED.

 

The player still has to earn the XP to level. They are not gaining an extra character. They are swapping over an ability set (all be it a different ability set but really not that much different from the respec of changing specialisation and role)

 

Going from a stealthy melee ranged DPS to a ranged healer with no stealth is vastly different than going from a ranged DPS to a ranged healer or from a melee DPS to a melee tank, IMO.

 

So all the balancing and changes to abilities across the various classes has been cosmetic?

And, again, you are not skipping any levelling process because you are not gaining an additional character.

You constantly state how easy and quick it is to level up a character, if that is the case why should it be seen as an imperitive against allowing AC swapping? I could understand it more if it was a difficult process that actually exposed a player to the skills they need at end game but as it stands its there for those that like story, and watching the flashy animations as mobs drop dead left right and centre.

 

If you level an assassin, and are handed a sorcerer(even if that sorcerer replaces the assassin), then you are skipping the process of leveling that sorcerer.

 

Even if I level a sorcerer as DPS, I still have access to the heal spells and at least gain a modicum of familiarity with them. If I level an assassin I have NO access to those heal spells and therefore cannot have any familiarity with them. The reverse is true as well. An assassin, even leveled as DPS, has access to the tanking skills, such as taunt, and will gain at least a modicum of familiarity with them, while the sorcerer cannot.

 

If the mobs drop deal left, right and center, then there should be no problem leveling. Why should BW spend the development dollars on a system to cater to the "lazy, entitled have to have it now and for as little effort as possible" crowd when there already exist a viable means for any player to play that new class (AC) that they want to play?

[ZahirS]

I would have a problem with it. I would have to make the choice as to whether or not I would coninue to play a game that caters to the "lazy, entitled have to have it now and for as little effort as possible crowd" to such an extent. What I would not do is to come to the forums whining and crying, playing the victim, expecting BW to change the game to suit me.

 

Lazy =/= Convenience

 

Convenience is the ability to make routine tasks easier, quality of life.

 

Lazy is avoiding tasks altogether.

The player still has to EARN that XP. It may be easier to do so, but the XP still has to be EARNED.

XP is Earned, Advanced Class is not something you earned is something you choose (Convenience)

 

 

Going from a stealthy melee ranged DPS to a ranged healer with no stealth is vastly different than going from a ranged DPS to a ranged healer or from a melee DPS to a melee tank, IMO.

 

So your point is?

 

 

If you level an assassin, and are handed a sorcerer(even if that sorcerer replaces the assassin), then you are skipping the process of leveling that sorcerer.

 

Even if I level a sorcerer as DPS, I still have access to the heal spells and at least gain a modicum of familiarity with them. If I level an assassin I have NO access to those heal spells and therefore cannot have any familiarity with them. The reverse is true as well. An assassin, even leveled as DPS, has access to the tanking skills, such as taunt, and will gain at least a modicum of familiarity with them, while the sorcerer cannot.

 

The amount of respecs in leveling has to do with the skill of the player, not with the advanced class they chose or swap in this case.

If the mobs drop deal left, right and center, then there should be no problem leveling. Why should BW spend the development dollars on a system to cater to the "lazy, entitled have to have it now and for as little effort as possible" crowd when there already exist a viable means for any player to play that new class (AC) that they want to play?

No and you are WRONG.

[Ratajack]

Lazy =/= Convenience

 

Convenience is the ability to make routine tasks easier, quality of life.

 

Lazy is avoiding tasks altogether.

 

 

Like avoiding leveling that new class (AC) you want to play?