Concerns About Players Being Suspended

[chuixupu]

I'm sure there were people clearly exploiting this, but I believe whoever issued the bans did not thoroughly investigate the incidents. A friend of mine got the week ban for merely making crystal copies, with no intention to sell anything, or any idea that what he was doing was something he wasn't supposed to do. Remember the Ilum bolster exploit during the double XP weekend, and how it was said that no action was going to be taken against people for making use of the system that developers had created in an unexpected way? Let's be consistent here.

[Shoogli]

Remember the Ilum bolster exploit during the double XP weekend, and how it was said that no action was going to be taken against people for making use of the system that developers had created in an unexpected way? Let's be consistent here.

 

Well, they are consistent : bugs that affects latest batch of CM items are fixed fairly quickly while if you remember good old bugs since launch are still on the backburner and will be for a long time. It's like the toys that were not bound for more than 6 months and suddenly they become a bug and suddenly it's fixed extra fast and now they're bound.

 

They *are* consistent : if it's about the CM then the action is taken ASAP...

Edited May 23, 2013 by Shoogli

[Lithy]

So, he has a BOUND crystal on one character that he can replicate via his collection and instead of unlocking it via cartel coins on another character uses a method which EVERYONE has been using to send BOUND crystals/mods/enhancements via LEGACY items to their other chars and people are getting perma-banned for it?

 

What the hell did BW think was going to happen when they introduced all this? It's not an exploit, it's using a process everyone has been using since legacy was introduced to send BOUND items between legacy characters. A process which BW implemented themselves.

 

This is BW banning people for the own f u c k up in not thinking about this method of moving items around after they bought in the new collections.

 

IMO they should be unbanning anyone they've been banned, giving them a free month and then patching the game to prevent this as they clearly don't want it to happen.

 

So we can't even make copies to use on the character the original crystal is bound on? We can't make a copy to duel wield with? or use in an off spec set? That's bannable?

[Shoogli]

On another note AM SOOOO GLAD that the collection is bugged and didn't register the +41 indestructible white-black crystal that is in the double-LS on my kinetic shadow, this way I don't risk being banned at all...

[Master-Nala]

So, he has a BOUND crystal on one character that he can replicate via his collection and instead of unlocking it via cartel coins on another character uses a method which EVERYONE has been using to send BOUND crystals/mods/enhancements via LEGACY items to their other chars and people are getting perma-banned for it?

 

What the hell did BW think was going to happen when they introduced all this? It's not an exploit, it's using a process everyone has been using since legacy was introduced to send BOUND items between legacy characters. A process which BW implemented themselves.

 

This is BW banning people for the own f u c k up in not thinking about this method of moving items around after they bought in the new collections.

 

IMO they should be unbanning anyone they've been banned, giving them a free month and then patching the game to prevent this as they clearly don't want it to happen.

 

Exploits are always partially the developer's fault. That doesn't absolve the player. Collections is pretty darn easy to understand. If you want to make copies of rare items for your alts, then you need to buy the account unlock. Circumventing that requirement is an exploit. Sure the devs should have seen it coming, but players should have known this wasn't intended and permitted behavior.

[tiennen]

Just to be clear, if i made a copy of my +41 Endurance crystal for my vibroblade, I won't get banned for it, right? Because I have it unlocked--I haven't done it yet. I don't wanna get banned if I do.

[Turiya]

Exploits are always partially the developer's fault. That doesn't absolve the player. Collections is pretty darn easy to understand. If you want to make copies of rare items for your alts, then you need to buy the account unlock. Circumventing that requirement is an exploit. Sure the devs should have seen it coming, but players should have known this wasn't intended and permitted behavior.

 

Perhaps. But this method of moving stuff around isn't exactly a new thing. It's quite possible that a lot of people don't know you can unlock things account wide via cartel coins(I know I didn't know about it until someone told me). I think this is purely at the feet of the devs. At the very least they shouldn't be banning anyone, just saying "we're aware that people are doing this. It isn't intended and will be patched asap. Anyone from NOW will be banned, anyone who has already done it we'll let you off"

 

Problem solved and nobody pissed off and cancelling subs.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Turiya

[schmel]

I feel like what people are describing can't possibly be what actually happened. For one thing, the cost of removing a mod or crystal is ALWAYS more than what you get for vendoring it. This is, of course, by design. Second, you can't sell cartel market items to a vendor, as far as I know. In terms of circumventing the collections system, we're talking about a miniscule portion of the collections system--JUST crystals--which are also the least expensive part of the entire collections system. Eric, please tell me you guys wouldn't be SO greedy and petty as to create all this fuss because you guys failed to make 60 CENTS more than you could have. (It's not even like you guys lost money, for crying out loud. we're talking about money that you think players would have spent, but didn't.) Finally, I found the collections system to be awesome: I was so excited that I could duplicate my crystals that I immediately went and purchased other items from the collections tab. I could believe what I saw as an unusual, but much appreciated show of goodwill. Letting us create a copy of our main hand crystal to use in our offhand? Awesome! When it comes to the CE vendor, you've stated that the "cat is out of the bag" and you're just going to roll with it. I can only assume that will be the case here. Anyway, all that said, I really just don't see how this could be the issue. Even considering EA/Bioware's history, I would be surprised if they banned people for crystal-related collection issues.

 

Also, Alec, I feel for you, buddy, I really do. I wish I could say something comforting, but sadly nothing comes to mind. Anyone that is flaming or criticizing him, there is a special place in hell reserved just for you, so hurry up and go there already.

Edited May 23, 2013 by schmel

[schmel]

Exploits are always partially the developer's fault. That doesn't absolve the player. Collections is pretty darn easy to understand. If you want to make copies of rare items for your alts, then you need to buy the account unlock. Circumventing that requirement is an exploit. Sure the devs should have seen it coming, but players should have known this wasn't intended and permitted behavior.

No. just...no. You lose the internet. Better luck next time.

[ExarKunxx]

Soo, I'm at a loss here, apparently the issue is using the collections to copy a crystal that you have and then using legacy weapons to send to another character is an exploit? Pretty sure that's WHAT LEGACY WEAPONS WERE DESIGNED TO DO. Normally I'm not one of these lets freak out and demand recompense for stupid little things such as server down time or patches that take too long or bugs that take content out of commission for awhile however with this I feel that people have been singled out. Not acceptable.

 

i'm confused as to why you just didn't copy on the other character

[Ratajack]

So, he has a BOUND crystal on one character that he can replicate via his collection and instead of unlocking it via cartel coins on another character uses a method which EVERYONE has been using to send BOUND crystals/mods/enhancements via LEGACY items to their other chars and people are getting perma-banned for it?

 

What the hell did BW think was going to happen when they introduced all this? It's not an exploit, it's using a process everyone has been using since legacy was introduced to send BOUND items between legacy characters. A process which BW implemented themselves.

 

This is BW banning people for the own f u c k up in not thinking about this method of moving items around after they bought in the new collections.

 

IMO they should be unbanning anyone they've been banned, giving them a free month and then patching the game to prevent this as they clearly don't want it to happen.

 

First of all, the TOS that everyone agrees to abide by state that you cannot use an unintended game mechanic to gain an unfair advantage, in this case avoiding the CC cost to unlock the crystal in the collections interface. That sure seems to be exactly what happened in this case. That qualifies it as an exploit, It is not BW's responsibility to insure that there are no loopholes that can be exploited. There are always loopholes that can be exploited. To expect any company to catch everyone of them is unreasonable. The player has to assume the responsibility for their own actions, in this case attempting to avoid the CC cost to unlock the crystals in the collections interface.

 

The devs used Revan's mask as an example of how the collections interface was INTENDED to be used. If a player had Revan's mask (or the entire Revan set, as I believe the set is needed for the unlock), they could pay a CC cost to unlock it in the collections interface. After the CC cost was paid and the unlock purchased, a player could create copies for any character in their account, and their companions. The devs did not say that a character who had the set could create a copy and put in a bound to legacy box and send the copy to an alt and avoid having to pay the CC cost for collections interface unlock.

[Ratajack]

Perhaps. But this method of moving stuff around isn't exactly a new thing. It's quite possible that a lot of people don't know you can unlock things account wide via cartel coins(I know I didn't know about it until someone told me). I think this is purely at the feet of the devs. At the very least they shouldn't be banning anyone, just saying "we're aware that people are doing this. It isn't intended and will be patched asap. Anyone from NOW will be banned, anyone who has already done it we'll let you off"

 

Problem solved and nobody pissed off and cancelling subs.

 

Really? The "maybe people didn't know" argument? It was clearly stated in the 2.1 patch notes, and multiple threads and previews prior to 2.1, how the system was designed to work.

[Ratajack]

i'm confused as to why you just didn't copy on the other character

 

He couldn't copy it on the other character as he did NOT pay the CC cost to unlock it account wide and prior to 2.1 the

other character had already sent the crystal to the character who ultimately created the copies.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Ratajack

[Ratajack]

I feel like what people are describing can't possibly be what actually happened. For one thing, the cost of removing a mod or crystal is ALWAYS more than what you get for vendoring it. This is, of course, by design. Second, you can't sell cartel market items to a vendor, as far as I know. In terms of circumventing the collections system, we're talking about a miniscule portion of the collections system--JUST crystals--which are also the least expensive part of the entire collections system. Eric, please tell me you guys wouldn't be SO greedy and petty as to create all this fuss because you guys failed to make 60 CENTS more than you could have. (It's not even like you guys lost money, for crying out loud. we're talking about money that you think players would have spent, but didn't.) Finally, I found the collections system to be awesome: I was so excited that I could duplicate my crystals that I immediately went and purchased other items from the collections tab. I could believe what I saw as an unusual, but much appreciated show of goodwill. Letting us create a copy of our main hand crystal to use in our offhand? Awesome! When it comes to the CE vendor, you've stated that the "cat is out of the bag" and you're just going to roll with it. I can only assume that will be the case here. Anyway, all that said, I really just don't see how this could be the issue. Even considering EA/Bioware's history, I would be surprised if they banned people for crystal-related collection issues.

 

Also, Alec, I feel for you, buddy, I really do. I wish I could say something comforting, but sadly nothing comes to mind. Anyone that is flaming or criticizing him, there is a special place in hell reserved just for you, so hurry up and go there already.

 

A player had 5 unbound white hawkeye crystals and yet chose to create a free copy for a character who could not create their own copy in order to avoid having to pay the CC cost for the account wide unlock and also avoid having to sacrifice possibly over a million credits by equipping one of the unbound crystals to the alt.

 

Do people really honestly believe that this is not an exploit or that BW is somehow responsible for the actions of an exploiter?

[waterboytkd]

So, using legacy weapons to move character-unlocked collections crystals (not account unlocked; former is free by binding to character, latter must be purchased) to other characters in your legacy to unlock them on those characters does seem sketchy, but are people sure that's what the bannings are over? Because normally, posts detailing an exploit get deleted, and all your posts haven't been deleted.

[Turiya]

First of all, the TOS that everyone agrees to abide by state that you cannot use an unintended game mechanic to gain an unfair advantage, in this case avoiding the CC cost to unlock the crystal in the collections interface. That sure seems to be exactly what happened in this case. That qualifies it as an exploit, It is not BW's responsibility to insure that there are no loopholes that can be exploited. There are always loopholes that can be exploited. To expect any company to catch everyone of them is unreasonable. The player has to assume the responsibility for their own actions, in this case attempting to avoid the CC cost to unlock the crystals in the collections interface.

 

The devs used Revan's mask as an example of how the collections interface was INTENDED to be used. If a player had Revan's mask (or the entire Revan set, as I believe the set is needed for the unlock), they could pay a CC cost to unlock it in the collections interface. After the CC cost was paid and the unlock purchased, a player could create copies for any character in their account, and their companions. The devs did not say that a character who had the set could create a copy and put in a bound to legacy box and send the copy to an alt and avoid having to pay the CC cost for collections interface unlock.

 

Firstly, not everyone reads pages and pages of patch notes or watches preview videos. That particular point was buried in the middle of the patch notes and I for one skim over a lot of stuff. Especially after seeing a big list of different cartel discounts being applied and removed.

 

Secondly, the TOS refers to bugs and taking advantages of game mechanics that give an unfair advantage. Given that these people were using a method IMPLEMENTED and INTENDED by BW to transfer BOUND items between characters how the hell do you think they were to assume that it was a bug or an unintended game mechanic? Why would you assume, given that any other bound crystal/mod/enhancement/armouring can be transferred between alts within legacy equipment, that doing so with Cartel items was specifically not allowed? I know I wouldn't. Given that the system has been in place for the last year or so I would see that as being an intended game mechanic and NOT an exploit or bug that gives an unfair advantage.

 

Argue it how you like, you're basically blaming everyone for a major screw up on BW's behalf. It wouldn't even be an issue if BW didn't go and mass suspend everyone. It's a pretty poor response and just makes it clear that if them losing money is involved they will move to stop unintended behaviour pretty bloody quickly. Meanwhile the game is still full of bugs that have been around for over a year.

[Inaara]

So, he has a BOUND crystal on one character that he can replicate via his collection and instead of unlocking it via cartel coins on another character uses a method which EVERYONE has been using to send BOUND crystals/mods/enhancements via LEGACY items to their other chars and people are getting perma-banned for it?

 

What the hell did BW think was going to happen when they introduced all this? It's not an exploit, it's using a process everyone has been using since legacy was introduced to send BOUND items between legacy characters. A process which BW implemented themselves.

 

This is BW banning people for the own **** up in not thinking about this method of moving items around after they bought in the new collections.

 

IMO they should be unbanning anyone they've been banned, giving them a free month and then patching the game to prevent this as they clearly don't want it to happen.

 

This. This. This.

 

So much this.

 

And I don't even know the first dang thing about this process, couldn't tell you how to do it, not interested in finding out.

 

But holy hell yes, what this poster above said. You can't punish players for using the system you implemented in the manner you indicated that you intended it to be used because you suddenly figured out that, holy crap, it means they won't be paying you $5 per character for the privilege of using the system. That's your problem, not the players'.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Inaara

[Alec_Fortescue]

How come cartel market is not pay to win now? People did grind for weeks to get their legacy weapons. Not all players have them. Its weeks of effort to get one and now they're not even allowed to use it? I really assumed this was working as intended and I praised it few days ago on forums here. Paying cc allows u to skip a very long weapon grind + make an account unlock. Exploits are when something is achieved really easily. This required me to spend additional hours to get the necessary item which was included for the sole purpose of sharing items between the legacy (not account). Too bad Bioware didn't address it when it was brought to their attention much earlier.

 

Whatever I did - it didn't even get me a slight advantage (and that's what exploits are supposed to do!).

 

And I can't see which thing in the patch notes ppl are referring to.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Alec_Fortescue

[tman_ac]

I wonder what would happen in the following scenario:

 

You have 2 bound white Hawkeye crystals on your main character.

You duplicate 2, send over the 2 non duplicated ones as they are not the for free ones.

I mean, that's what players are doing since we got the first legacy weapons at the chevin event.

 

And now all of a sudden they mark a feature they gave us as an exploit?

 

Come on BW, this is so wrong and you know it.

[Twitchy]

The thing is, we have NO IDEA why these accounts were banned.

 

I don't think it had anything to do with sending crystals to your alts.

I think the collections system sent off a massive false positive on someone's exploit script.

 

My husband's account was banned for a week. He payed money out the wazoo to have all his crystals and outfits account unlocked.

He didn't mail anything to his alts as he didn't need to, he simply paid the CC for the account unlock on everything.

The artifice exploit? He doesn't even have a toon with artifice over about 50 (he hates artifice).

 

His reward for literally spending hundreds of dollars obtaining and binding rare items...

 

A one week ban with no explanation.

 

Thanks Bioware!

 

Awesome service!

Edited May 23, 2013 by Twitchy

[Alec_Fortescue]

A player had 5 unbound white hawkeye crystals and yet chose to create a free copy for a character who could not create their own copy in order to avoid having to pay the CC cost for the account wide unlock and also avoid having to sacrifice possibly over a million credits by equipping one of the unbound crystals to the alt.

 

Do people really honestly believe that this is not an exploit or that BW is somehow responsible for the actions of an exploiter?

 

My sentinel had had a bound white hawkeye crystal at the time he received dupes... =_= I didn't benefit from what I did because I'd be able to unlock it anyway. What's worst - there is a person i know of who did benefit and sent dozenns of dupes across his characters and he's still running free. Besides we still could not unlock the crystals for the entire account and it took us hours or weeks of grind in order to get the required legacy weapons and suddenly they're not working as intended after a year?

 

It's like buying leveling boosts or star ship upgrades. You are not required to do so but u can acquire them through hard work and spending credits. In this case you could've used something u obtained through hard work and which was intended to be used that way. Paying was an option for either lazy ppl or account-wide unlock. Like in the case of the various boosts or starship pieces.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Alec_Fortescue

[tman_ac]

Wonder what's going at Austin. Maybe they should fire the monkey who is responsible for bans and hire a cat. Would even fit better now where we have the cathar.

[Alec_Fortescue]

The thing is, we have NO IDEA why these accounts were banned.

 

I don't think it had anything to do with sending crystals to your alts.

I think the collections system sent off a massive false positive on someone's exploit script.

 

My husband's account was banned for a week. He payed money out the wazoo to have all his crystals and outfits account unlocked.

He didn't mail anything to his alts as he didn't need to, he simply paid the CC for the account unlock on everything.

The artifice exploit? He doesn't even have a toon with artifice over about 50 (he hates artifice).

 

His reward for literally spending hundreds of dollars obtaining and binding rare items...

 

A one week ban with no explanation.

 

Thanks Bioware!

 

Awesome service!

 

Unfortunatelly we can't have a discussion where we're trying to come up with things banned players had in common. :/

[waterboytkd]

Unfortunatelly we can't have a discussion where we're trying to come up with things banned players had in common. :/

 

Precisely. I've always felt that the gag on ban-talk in MMO forums is a bit McCarthian. But the fact that we CAN talk about moving crystals around with legacy weapons is indicative that this was NOT the offense. However, I would not be surprised to find out that some automated system to detect illicit item duping was mistakenly detecting the above and bans were being issued accidentally. It wouldn't be the first time in MMO history that an automated banhammer malfunctioned.

Edited May 23, 2013 by waterboytkd

[Alec_Fortescue]

When are we goin to get clarifications? I barely slept.