Concerns About Players Being Suspended

[Andryah]

I am surprised by one thing though. Why do in game bans and suspensions not translate to the forum? Regardless of whether the action against the account is legitimate or not, just seems to be an odd policy. Almost as if it's an attempt to allow the player to dig a deeper hole for themselves after being pushed in.

 

Probably because you can choose in your browser to stay logged in to the forums until the forum server is reset.

[curtkram]

Yes you can. NO it's not bannable. .

as far as we know. we still aren't certain why people are getting banned.

What you cannot do is move a cloned crystal to another character without paying the CC unlock. If it is not obvious to someone that this is not intended and is exploiting the game to get unlimited free +41 crystals (read: white-black crystals that have a GTN market value of 500k-1M credits in the player economy for non-clone versions)..... discussing it with them further is pointless.

obviously you can. that's what legacy gear is for.

 

regarding the GTN market value, and this is an honest question, there is no way for someone to clone a white-black crystal and sell it on the gtn right? because, as i understand, they're bound? i think that would be more clear.

 

just as a point of clarification, the part that is pointless to discuss is whether it is ok to do or not, or whether it's an exploit or not. surely we agree it "can" be done?

[Master-Nala]

i think mods should ban all pretend lawyer talk. but if we want to,

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheek_v._United_States

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambert_v._California

 

ignorance of a law can be an excuse for not following a law. furthermore, we should establish Animus nocendi and Mens rea fpr the accused. the actions of the plaintiff demonstrated certain features of the game can be used. two of these systems, the legacy dupe option from the collections release (allowable) and transferring items to an alt with legacy mainhand and offhand weapons (allowable) were combined to produce an effect the company may have not intended. they did not make clear to their customers or the defendants in particular how they intended the synergy of these systems to work.

 

animus nocendi and mens rea have not been met. a punishment of a week ban was implemented without giving the accused the right to due process. they did not have the ability to face their accuser or submit testimony on their behalf. to suggest this was a just action by the accuser is an insult to the entire history of western justice.

 

As you say, persons should avoid pretend lawyer talk. Private entities have no obligation to extend due process. Our relationship with Bioware is contractual. And the contract grants almost unlimited discretion to Bioware and specifically disavows the right to the principle feature of due process, ie notice and an opportunity to be heard.

[Andryah]

first of all, we don't know 'dodging the CC cost' is what got people banned.

second, i believe it's been made clear people used tested in-game methods that were well known to the devs to transfer an item to another toon. there were 2 options, use the CC method or use the non-CC method. he elected the latter.

 

personally, and in my opinion, there is nothing wrong with that. you are certainly entitled to the opinion that what he did is wrong. however, it's wrong and generally useless for you to put that sort of false-morality on others. you are not going to convince anyone that their opinion is not sound just because you think it's wrong. i understand your position. if you fail to understand my position, please understand that's your fault and not anyone else's.

 

the devs can clear up a lot of the confusion by explaining what happened and why, but they chose not to.

 

1) It's pretty clear from discussion across the interent.. this is in fact at least one exploit that was subject to action.

 

2) It was clear to me on day one when I played with collections that I could probably do what was at issue here. But you know what.... I looked at it and knew it was not intended game play and so I did not exploit it. I played within the intended parameters of the Collections system. Why? because if I am going to play an MMO I love, I'm not going to cheapen it or risk my access to it for something as silly like this. I paid my unlocks and I proceeded onward in the game.

 

3) Morality is pointless in this discussion. Bioware as has acted as it determines is appropriate for what took place. Some people feel it was harsh. These people are entitled to their opinions, as am I. Bioware is entitled to police and action the game as they see fit... you agreed to this when you accepted the Tos/EULA. Personally, I think this action sends a clear message to players to not be cavalier and think just because you can do something due to a multi-feature based loop-hole... it does not make it right and proper to do so. People appear to have consistently been dealt the same punishment.. a one week suspension.... NOT perma-bans.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Andryah

[Andryah]

As you say, persons should avoid pretend lawyer talk. Private entities have no obligation to extend due process. Our relationship with Bioware is contractual. And the contract grants almost unlimited discretion to Bioware and specifically disavows the right to the principle feature of due process, ie notice and an opportunity to be heard.

 

Yep.

 

And this is true for every MMO in the market place. They all operate under essentially the same contract terms with players.

[Andryah]

obviously you can. that's what legacy gear is for.

 

That is not what Legacy gear was designed for, but it is in fact a loophole in legacy gear that players have been taking advantage of for a long time. Personally, I never understood why Bioware did not take some form of action to prevent moving bound Mods between player characters in a legacy. Perhaps they looked at it as benign enough to turn an eye from since up until now... any such mod came from earned effort on the part of the player (most often a bind on aquire mod from an Ops drop). Nobody was moving high value, YET freely cloned, mods around prior to Collections.

 

regarding the GTN market value, and this is an honest question, there is no way for someone to clone a white-black crystal and sell it on the gtn right? because, as i understand, they're bound? i think that would be more clear.

 

You missed my point completely. My point: those crystals are not meant to be freely cloned and passed around without either aquiring from the player economy OR through a legal unlock of Collections. The reason people were doing what they were doing was most likely precisely because the fair market value of the white-blacks is very high, as is the Collections unlock price. People cheated to save themselves both CC and game economy burdens upon themselves.

 

In fairness.. I would grant that some players may have done it just to test if it works.. but other then intellectual curiosity, why do that? It's risky. If they did, and got caught.. then they now must prove their innocent curiosity, which may be tough or impossible. Foolish risk IMO.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Andryah

[SomeJagoff]

Yes you can. NO it's not bannable.

 

People saying that is all they did... it's their word for it that we see.... and they really cannot prove it to any of us... so this could go in circles all day long... and nothing would change. They need to appeal the ban, let Bioware review it and make a determination

 

What you cannot do is move a cloned crystal to another character without paying the CC unlock. If it is not obvious to someone that this is not intended and is exploiting the game to get unlimited free +41 crystals (read: white-black crystals that have a GTN market value of 500k-1M credits in the player economy for non-clone versions)..... discussing it with them further is pointless.

 

You are usually very knowledgable about the game's features and bioware's policies......but on this one, I dunno, I'm not sure if it's a good idea to encourage people to copy crystals, even if just for an offhand on that specific toon. Personally, I think I'd rather just avoid anything related to legacy weapons, color crystals (even crafted ones), and the cartel market til this is all sorted out with CLEAR explanations from the devs of what you can and cannot do.

 

I mean, if people are supposedly buying crystals using cartel coins and getting banned as a result, then I really don't want to touch that system or anything remotely related to it.

 

People are obviously free to do what they wish, buy more cartel stuff or buy nothing, but I'm personally gonna wait before I even consider copying an extra armor set just for the same toon that has it unlocked already.

 

Too bad too, cause having a complete revan set on every toon sounded really awesome, especially since the cartel coin price wasn't that bad compared to the random boxes/tens to hundreds of millions of credits for multiple masks off the gtn.

 

Hopefully all this will get sorted out soon.....what a mess though.

[curtkram]

You missed my point completely. My point: those crystals are not meant to be freely cloned and passed around without either aquiring from the player economy OR through a legal unlock of Collections. The reason people were doing what they were doing was most likely precisely because the fair market value of the white-blacks is very high, as is the Collections unlock price. People cheated to save themselves both CC and game economy burdens upon themselves.

 

so this exploit is limited in nature to the characters of a single account on a single server. they can't dupe crystals outside of that?

 

this is an honest question again then. is it mostly people who duped valuable crystals who are getting banned, and is it ok to dupe a less expensive one to send to an alt?

 

it is ok for me to dupe a cartel crystal for my companions on a given character right? that is working as intended? the question is whether i can pass them to an alt. so if i have a white-black crystal and make 10 copies, 1 for offhand and 1 for mainhand for 5 companions, is that working as intended, or would i get banned?

 

and to reiterate, in any case i should not be afraid of getting banned. that is not a good game feature. the devs are not making the game more enjoyable with this decision.

[Ratajack]

first of all, we don't know 'dodging the CC cost' is what got people banned.

second, i believe it's been made clear people used tested in-game methods that were well known to the devs to transfer an item to another toon. there were 2 options, use the CC method or use the non-CC method. he elected the latter.

 

personally, and in my opinion, there is nothing wrong with that. you are certainly entitled to the opinion that what he did is wrong. however, it's wrong and generally useless for you to put that sort of false-morality on others. you are not going to convince anyone that their opinion is not sound just because you think it's wrong. i understand your position. if you fail to understand my position, please understand that's your fault and not anyone else's.

 

the devs can clear up a lot of the confusion by explaining what happened and why, but they chose not to.

 

You are correct. We don't know 'dodging the CC cost' is what got people banned. We DO know, however, that a certain poster in this thread DID dodge the CC cost and still attempted to give his characters on the same server essentially the same benefits that an account (or server) wide unlock would have given them. To try to justify it as anything else is ludicrous.

[chuuuuucky]

That is not what Legacy gear was designed for, but it is in fact a loophole in legacy gear that players have been taking advantage of for a long time. Personally, I never understood why Bioware did not take some form of action to prevent moving bound Mods between player characters in a legacy. Perhaps they looked at it as benign enough to turn an eye from since up until now... any such mod came from earned effort on the part of the player (most often a bind on aquire mod from an Ops drop). Nobody was moving high value, YET freely cloned, mods around prior to Collections.

 

This is 100% assumption and you shouldn't write it in a way as if it's the truth. (exept you work for bioware. That could give you deeper insight on that topic.)

 

You missed my point completely. My point: those crystals are not meant to be freely cloned and passed around without either aquiring from the player economy OR through a legal unlock of Collections. The reason people were doing what they were doing was most likely precisely because the fair market value of the white-blacks is very high, as is the Collections unlock price. People cheated to save themselves both CC an game economy burdens upon themselves.

 

As much as i am against the way they did it i am with you in this point. You have two options of giving your color crystals to your alts. And it is absolutly logical that if one is not for free and the other is, there has to be something wrong.

And if you go one step further and ask yourself what is probably the right way to foreward crystals to your alt it doesn't take alot of thinking to know that it is the CC way.

So as always Biowares action are completely over the top and not comperative but if the action of transfering crystals to alts for free is the reason fur the suspends i am with them on taking action against it.

[Andryah]

You are usually very knowledgable about the game's features and bioware's policies......but on this one, I dunno, I'm not sure if it's a good idea to encourage people to copy crystals, even if just for an offhand on that specific toon. Personally, I think I'd rather just avoid anything related to legacy weapons, color crystals (even crafted ones), and the cartel market til this is all sorted out with CLEAR explanations from the devs of what you can and cannot do.

 

I mean, if people are supposedly buying crystals using cartel coins and getting banned as a result, then I really don't want to touch that system or anything remotely related to it.

 

They are not. There is no evidence of this IMO. There are some claims along those lines, but I don't believe them.

 

I personally have unlocked all my collection eligible crystals in the Collections UI. I paid the CCs for each of them. And when you pay the unlock.. the unlock is valid for every other character on your account, not just your legacy. I have cloned crystals on each character that I wanted to use them on, both for the character, and the companions, and for dual wield purpsoes. What I have NOT DONE is move crystals around using legacy weapons......Why would I?.... that is a needless step and cost me credits to pull the crystals.

 

I have done the same for a number of weapons and 9 different armor sets. I have freely cloned these on both existing characters and new characters since 2.1 patched in.

 

I am sure others can make the same verifying statements.

 

I do agree with you that Bioware needs to clearly state the above is indeed intended and not an offense, becasue when things like this come up, players get confused by all the different information being floated in discussions. And I am sure they will.

[Genocidalx]

You shouldn't have to be a lawyer and study for hours to play a videogame. Neither should you have to guesstimate what is and isn't allowed if the methods are obvious. Finding datacrons could be considered an exploit because you're going into areas off the main path, areas you may not be allowed to go.

 

I don't want to flinch every time I decide to do something. Bioware is despicable and... I'll stop there.

 

Stupid filth.

[Pistols]

Sooooo many threads over the last forever about moving stuff with legacy items, which ALL went ignored per the usual, and now EA just bans peeps outright...congrats, I'm sure you made them proud.

 

[Kilora]

You shouldn't have to be a lawyer and study for hours to play a videogame. Neither should you have to guesstimate what is and isn't allowed if the methods are obvious. Finding datacrons could be considered an exploit because you're going into areas off the main path, areas you may not be allowed to go.

 

I don't want to flinch every time I decide to do something. Bioware is despicable and... I'll stop there.

 

Stupid filth.

 

Seriously?

 

You have 2 ways to do something. Both ways popped up with the newest patch.

 

For EVERYTHING ELSE IN COLLECTIONS -- the ONLY way you can unlock it cross-character is to pay CCs.

For these alone -- you have TWO ways to do it, one of which is free.

 

I don't understand how anyone could actually think the free way was intended. Especially when these same people go on and on about how EA only cares about money.

[Andryah]

so this exploit is limited in nature to the characters of a single account on a single server. they can't dupe crystals outside of that?

 

this is an honest question again then. is it mostly people who duped valuable crystals who are getting banned, and is it ok to dupe a less expensive one to send to an alt?

 

I'm not saying that.. and no.. that is just as wrong based on what we know.

 

People go for the rare shinies.. and people love them. I use the White-black as my point of focus because I have in fact seen multiple people in other places on the interent admit they did what was discussed.. and it was ALWAYS with white-black crystals.

 

And correct... as far as I know.. this exploit was contained within a single legacy boundary... being the nature of how it was done.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Andryah

[curtkram]

I personally have unlocked all my collection eligible crystals in the Collections UI. I paid the CCs for each of them. And when you pay the unlock.. the unlock is valid for every other character on your account, not just your legacy. I have cloned crystals on each character that I wanted to use them on, both for the character, and the companions, and for dual wield purpsoes. What I have NOT DONE is move crystals around using legacy weapons......Why would I?.... that is a needless step and cost me credits to pull the crystals.

 

we're talking about what can get you banned. i know you think it's wrong to transfer a cartel crystal via legacy weapon. talking about what you did that did not get you banned is completely irrelevant.

 

if i transfer a white/black crystal in a legacy lightsaber to an alt who actually uses it, will that get me banned? i've seen people who transfer the same gear for 2 characters, for example a tank and a dps to fill whatever roll is needed in a group. if i transfer a crystal with legacy gear and i did pay the CCs for the unlock, will that still get me banned, assuming it's some sort of automated script?

 

can you get a real bioware employee to answer where they drew the line instead of giving an opinion on what you think the right thing to do is?

[Calabask]

Has there been any update from Bioware or anyone about this at all?

[Andryah]

This is 100% assumption and you shouldn't write it in a way as if it's the truth. (exept you work for bioware. That could give you deeper insight on that topic.)

 

The assumption is both logical and documented as fact. Legacy gear was put in the game to enable players to reuse the gear on multiple characters within a legacy.

 

Players... clever creatures that they are... quickly figured out that modable legacy gear gave them the ability to take character bound mods and move them across the mail system to other characters in their legacy. So they did.

 

Players also then began demanding that other specific legacy gear be patched in to the game so that other mods could be moved using the loophole as well. Bioware has not complied directly to this reques nor acknowledged the validity of the request.

 

Logical conclusion: Legacy gear design intention was to allow players to resue the gear on other characters in their legacy. Use beyond this, was players being clever with discovered loopholes in the legacy gear system, which Bioware never bothered to close. In other words.. it was a bug.. and we all know that some bugs live for a long time in game... especially if their priority/urgency level is low.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Andryah

[Alec_Fortescue]

Has there been any update from Bioware or anyone about this at all?

 

Apparently they won't make any update until they will hotfix it -_-

[Andryah]

can you get a real bioware employee to answer where they drew the line instead of giving an opinion on what you think the right thing to do is?

 

No more then you can.

 

I'm sure they are monitoring this thread and know the community want's absolute clarification to help set minds at ease.

 

In the mean time, as one rational player to others... I am going to provide constructive comment on the topic. It's up to individual readers to decide if what I share makes sense to them or not.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Andryah

[Andryah]

Apparently they won't make any update until they will hotfix it -_-

 

This is probably true.. since that IS how MMO developers usually address these sorts of things.

[Benfynyn]

Bioware has not complied directly to this reques nor acknowledged the validity of the request.

 

They totally complied. We have all types of legacy gear now. The big one people were asking for was lightsabers and we got that with the Gree event. In fact they could have made the Gray Helix BoL and let us trade those instead but they made the weapons BoL.

 

That's them choosing to allow the practice to continue right there.

[Pistols]

The assumption is both logical and documented as fact. Legacy gear was put in the game to enable players to reuse the gear on multiple characters within a legacy.

 

Players... clever creatures that they are... quickly figured out that modable legacy gear gave them the ability to take character bound mods and move them across the mail system to other characters in their legacy. So they did.

 

Players also then began demanding that other specific legacy gear be patched in to the game so that other mods could be moved using the loophole as well. Bioware has not complied directly to this reques nor acknowledged the validity of the request.

 

Logical conclusion: Legacy gear design intention was to allow players to resue the gear on other characters in their legacy. Use beyond this, was players being clever with discovered loopholes in the legacy gear system, which Bioware never bothered to close. In other words.. it was a bug.. and we all know that some bugs live for a long time in game... especially if their priority/urgency level is low.

 

Then the blame falls squarely on EA development tbh. They have known about players moving mods/enhans/crystals through Legacy gear for so many months, there is no excuse for their current action at all. It is also NOT a bug persay, because EA has never once stated at such, so please don't say it's a bug. If you bothered to look up the amount of threads regarding Legacy gear, and the discussions about moving said items through it, not once do you see a reply (that I have found) stating this is indeed...a bug. Yes bugs live for a long time in game, but them not stating it as such is the issue, and now banning people for doing it is terrible business and just another reason why people will ubsub.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Pistols

[Andryah]

They totally complied. We have all types of legacy gear now. The big one people were asking for was lightsabers and we got that with the Gree event. In fact they could have made the Gray Helix BoL and let us trade those instead but they made the weapons BoL.

 

That's them choosing to allow the practice to continue right there.

 

Yeah, they complied indirectly.. as in added additional legacy gear over time. There is no evidence this was anything other then part of their planned content patching over time. Prove to me that it was done specifically to pleas legacy mod movers. Just looking at how long it took demonstrates it was not purposeful to mod movers.

 

They did not comply directly. Directly would be: "yes, we hear you customers, and we agree you need legacy gear to move bound mods around your legacy to other characters, we shall get to work on that directly".

Edited May 23, 2013 by Andryah

[chuuuuucky]

The assumption is both logical and documented as fact. Legacy gear was put in the game to enable players to reuse the gear on multiple characters within a legacy.

 

Then it shouldn't be a problem to post a link to the sources that makes it a fact?

Edited May 23, 2013 by chuuuuucky