Concerns About Players Being Suspended

[Malchan]

Remove collections: It's only causing grief, I'm not an idiot it's obvious collections is causing your auto-ban system to go crazy. It's a fun feature but it's useless if we can't use it without fear of possible ban. Or give the copies another value and make it incompatible with legacy gear, it's just 100 or so lines that would need touching up.

[Genocidalx]

My ban has been lifted. Happy day.

 

I hope you don't stop there and instead share your experience everywhere and demand a personal, written apology from bioware and the suspended time or more added to your paid time.

[Benfynyn]

My ban has been lifted. Happy day.

 

Did it expire or was it removed? Any further comments to you about the incident? (that you're allowed to repeat of course)

[Calabask]

This was the message I received.

 

Dear XXXXXXXXX,

 

Account Name XXXXXXXX

Email address: XXXXXXXXXXXX

 

We are contacting you regarding the action that has been taken on your account.

 

We have now completed an investigation on the sanction applied. After reviewing your case, we have concluded that this sanction should be removed. We will take great care to ensure that this does not occur again in the future. As a goodwill gesture, we have added 3 days of game time to your account.

 

We regret any inconvenience caused by this issue.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Star Wars ™: The Old Republic™ Terms of Service

[Kilora]

i know kilora, but i don't think that's the exploit you're looking for. just an opinion, and your opinion is different, which i respect.

 

i like the stealing analogy:

 

so i go to the convenient store a pick up a candy bar and buy it. then i think, 'that looks good maybe i'll get another.'

but i don't have to buy the second. ooh, look, i can make a bunch of copies for free. surely that's not really how it works. <copy>. hmm. maybe it is that easy. <copy> <copy>. maybe i'll give a candy bar to my companion. hey look, that's allowable and encouraged too. <copy>. maybe i'll give one to my alt while i'm at it.

<sirens>

***? this is where you draw the line?

 

I don't think you get my point.

 

THAT isn't a problem.

 

It's when you start handing those free candy bars out to every "family member" (alternate character) you have, so you don't have to pay a penny, when that was clearly unintended.

[Jadescythe]

I don't think you get my point.

 

THAT isn't a problem.

 

It's when you start handing those free candy bars out to every "family member" (alternate character) you have, so you don't have to pay a penny, when that was clearly unintended.

 

The point is, they let you take as many as you want, but get mad as soon as you try to give one to someone else. It makes sense but it doesn't make sense. This never should have been offered as a character unlock and this never would have been a problem.

[tman_ac]

I think you are confusing me with someone else. I never said using legacy gear to transfer mods that were earned in a legit way was exploiting anything. the fact that a very large number of people have been doing it ever since legacy gear was launched and no one was ever banned for that says that it isn't considered an exploit.

 

but using legacy gear to steal from the CC store is not the same thing and no one should be surprised or upset that BW took action against those people.

 

Then let me quote you again:

 

Yeah, they bungled the entire rollout of legacy gear IMO. Just because clever players found a loophole to use it as mod mules does not change the fact, and does not mitigate the loophole as also poor design on their part.

 

Here you say that clever players used it as mod mules and it wasn't intended to work in this way. That's why I disagree with you. You say in general that the gear isn't working as intended. And I can just repeat myself, you do not need to be clever to figure that out. Even the most stupid BW Dev knew that players will use it that way.

 

Now they introduced the collections and maybe forgot about the legacy gear. Players were using the gear as they did pre Collections. And stealing is a hard wording here. You can't steal something that you get for free on your toon that can make endless amounts of free duplicates. It would be stealing if you somehow manage to get one crystal for free in the first place, either by hacking the packs or the CM in general.

 

But well, I guess you never understand players who aren't defending BW 100%. Yes, it was a poor concept when they introduced the collections and "forgot" about the legacy gear. But players are always going the easiest way. And banning them for using the legacy gear feature over the Collections feature is in my opinion wrong.

 

If you have the freedom to chose between a feature that only costs credits (to extract) or paying CC, the player with more credits will use legacy gear while the player with more real cash will buy it with CC.

[Benfynyn]

This was the message I received.

 

Dear XXXXXXXXX,

 

Account Name XXXXXXXX

Email address: XXXXXXXXXXXX

 

We are contacting you regarding the action that has been taken on your account.

 

We have now completed an investigation on the sanction applied. After reviewing your case, we have concluded that this sanction should be removed. We will take great care to ensure that this does not occur again in the future. As a goodwill gesture, we have added 3 days of game time to your account.

 

We regret any inconvenience caused by this issue.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Star Wars ™: The Old Republic™ Terms of Service

 

I don't know if that would placate me if I had been wrongfully banned but congrats on having your access restored and being vindicated.

 

As for EA/Bioware, you guys need to get a statement out regarding this. Now that accounts are being un-banned, and apology e-mails are going out, you should be addressing the playerbase and offering some assurances that errors like this aren't going to happen again.

[Ratajack]

That is exactly the problem.

 

The transfer of the ORIGINAL crystal SHOULD be allowed -- but it should either NOT count in collections, or it should be REMOVED from the other character.

 

That is the key issue here. Pre-2.1 moving crystals around was absolutely ok. Because of the way they implemented the new Collections system -- it is now only OK with non-CM crystals that are not tracked in collections.

 

The problem is how do you allow the original to be transferred and still prevent exploiting. If you say remove the original from the sender's collection, then I simply make my copies BEFORE I send the original, while it is still in that character's collection.

 

I think the best solution is simply to prevent the creation of free copies unless the unlock is purchased. Deletion of all copies made thus far would not impact those who purchased the account wide unlock in any major way, as they could still simply make new copies. How do you determine which crystals were possessed prior to 2.1 and which were copies? Can they delete only all the copies made thus far? Who knows.

[Kilora]

The point is, they let you take as many as you want, but get mad as soon as you try to give one to someone else. It makes sense but it doesn't make sense. This never should have been offered as a character unlock and this never would have been a problem.

 

Well, then you're saying the entire Collections system shouldn't have been implemented, right?

 

The crystals are an issue because of other problems. Everything else works great! I paid 90CC to unlock the Genteel Dress set on 12 of my characters, and now I have a full set of armoring on each of my alts for 90 CC.

 

Works perfectly to me. Except for this ONE issue. My bet is that they will probably remove crystals from the collections tab.

[chuuuuucky]

Then let me quote you again:

 

You shouldn't just look on the avatar but also read the name

[curtkram]

i get your point kilora. you've been quite clear and articulate and i appreciate that. the stealing analogy was from a different poster, which i found amusing. you think that a player should not be able to send items copied from the collection system to their alts. i think that since the collection item is in place, and since the legacy gear system is in place, it should be allowable. i would not be upset if they changed the mechanics to make this impossible. they may decide the overall economic impact of this is not worth the trouble of 'fixing' the system.

 

honestly, my guess is this will now be a 'feature.' i think they will find it's easier to leave it be instead of fix it. but i have a somewhat low opinion of the developers right now....

[Kilora]

The problem is how do you allow the original to be transferred and still prevent exploiting. If you say remove the original from the sender's collection, then I simply make my copies BEFORE I send the original, while it is still in that character's collection.

 

I think the best solution is simply to prevent the creation of free copies unless the unlock is purchased. Deletion of all copies made thus far would not impact those who purchased the account wide unlock in any major way, as they could still simply make new copies. How do you determine which crystals were possessed prior to 2.1 and which were copies? Can they delete only all the copies made thus far? Who knows.

 

Ratajack -- you and I are in complete agreement.

 

The problem is their inability to track original items. Meaning, pre-2.1 you COULD transfer the crystal -- but now you can't, because just by having the crystal it is unlocked in Collections.

 

Maybe they could do this?

 

You have to CHOOSE to add the crystals to your collection. Once done -- it will make BoL gear lose its legacy bind, unless the crystal is removed. Otherwise, it remains as is -- but not in your collections.

[Jadescythe]

Well, then you're saying the entire Collections system shouldn't have been implemented, right?

 

The crystals are an issue because of other problems. Everything else works great! I paid 90CC to unlock the Genteel Dress set on 12 of my characters, and now I have a full set of armoring on each of my alts for 90 CC.

 

Works perfectly to me. Except for this ONE issue. My bet is that they will probably remove crystals from the collections tab.

 

If they only offered the legacy unlock option, then mailing to alts in legacy gear is no longer a problem. Some of the more nefarious uses would still be out there, but there are other fixes for those.

[tman_ac]

You shouldn't just look on the avatar but also read the name

 

Oh haha, what a failure!

[Calabask]

I don't know if that would placate me if I had been wrongfully banned but congrats on having your access restored and being vindicated.

 

As for EA/Bioware, you guys need to get a statement out regarding this. Now that accounts are being un-banned, and apology e-mails are going out, you should be addressing the playerbase and offering some assurances that errors like this aren't going to happen again.

 

For me it wasn't about me being banned, but everyone else whom may have been banned unintentionally or due to a mistake. I can take a hit or two and roll with the punches, my tolerance for it in regards to myself is high. As you can note in all my posts, not once did I mention my banning. It was always about others, which is because if I feel someone's being punished unfairly, I want to get that fixed as soon as possible, regardless of the cost to myself.

[Benfynyn]

For me it wasn't about me being banned, but everyone else whom may have been banned unintentionally or due to a mistake. I can take a hit or two and roll with the punches, my tolerance for it in regards to myself is high. As you can note in all my posts, not once did I mention my banning. It was always about others, which is because if I feel someone's being punished unfairly, I want to get that fixed as soon as possible, regardless of the cost to myself.

 

Well, you're clearly a better person than I because I wouldn't have let them off the hook that easily.

[BadOrb]

Just realised something , the other week I bought a few black core crystals and wanted a certain look on my sentinel , but one of them was too expensive for a power one , so i bought an endurance one , just for the time being. I took it out about 5 days ago and was going to send it via a bowcaster to an alt that wanted an endurance one .

 

So as I have been saying , nearly every single thing i do revolves around my legacy items , armor or weapons.

 

Not working as intended my a***.

 

Cheers,

 

BadOrb.

[MiaRB]

Then let me quote you again:

 

 

 

Here you say that clever players used it as mod mules and it wasn't intended to work in this way. That's why I disagree with you. You say in general that the gear isn't working as intended. And I can just repeat myself, you do not need to be clever to figure that out. Even the most stupid BW Dev knew that players will use it that way.

 

Now they introduced the collections and maybe forgot about the legacy gear. Players were using the gear as they did pre Collections. And stealing is a hard wording here. You can't steal something that you get for free on your toon that can make endless amounts of free duplicates. It would be stealing if you somehow manage to get one crystal for free in the first place, either by hacking the packs or the CM in general.

 

But well, I guess you never understand players who aren't defending BW 100%. Yes, it was a poor concept when they introduced the collections and "forgot" about the legacy gear. But players are always going the easiest way. And banning them for using the legacy gear feature over the Collections feature is in my opinion wrong.

 

If you have the freedom to chose between a feature that only costs credits (to extract) or paying CC, the player with more credits will use legacy gear while the player with more real cash will buy it with CC.

 

I am not the other person you quoted.

 

it is stealing. you can make free copies for the character the item is bound to and use them on that character any way you want. but making copies and sending them to alts via legacy gear is stealing because you are exploiting the system to avoid paying the discounted CC price on your alts.

[Genocidalx]

For me it wasn't about me being banned, but everyone else whom may have been banned unintentionally or due to a mistake. I can take a hit or two and roll with the punches, my tolerance for it in regards to myself is high. As you can note in all my posts, not once did I mention my banning. It was always about others, which is because if I feel someone's being punished unfairly, I want to get that fixed as soon as possible, regardless of the cost to myself.

 

Well, that's the reason most of us are here. Users like myself who haven't been banned but find this whole ordeal despicable (best word I can think for it) in the purest sense of the word. It was shady and crooked and the grief shouldn't befall the innocent to beg for solution. Imagine if it were just one user who didn't voice it. The only reason some may be unbanned is BW's attempt to save face. They're the only ones who should be serving a penalty here, and who is going to exact it?

[Kilora]

Well, that's the reason most of us are here. Users like myself who haven't been banned but find this whole ordeal despicable (best word I can think for it) in the purest sense of the word. It was shady and crooked and the grief shouldn't befall the innocent to beg for solution. Imagine if it were just one user who didn't voice it. The only reason some may be unbanned is BW's attempt to save face. They're the only ones who should be serving a penalty here, and who is going to exact it?

 

Unlike you, I don't immediately think that this was done maliciously.

 

It appears as if the person looking through the logs had too heavy of a hand -- and we've already seen a report of someone having the ban lifted, and gametime added to their account as an apology.

 

Did BW make a mistake? Absolutely. It happens.

Did they do it on purpse? Give me a break.

[Ten_Ton_Hammer]

What exactly is the point of hiding the offense?

 

Honestly, Bioware makes some dreadfully stupid decisions on policy. Just tell people what the problem was and fix it. I don't need names, but report on what happened.

[Kilora]

What exactly is the point of hiding the offense?

 

Honestly, Bioware makes some dreadfully stupid decisions on policy. Just tell people what the problem was and fix it. I don't need names, but report on what happened.

 

The point of hiding it, is so other people don't find out how to do it and take advantage of it.

 

Yeah, obviously they'd be banned as well -- but banning people does BW no good. It creates anger and frustration and can easily make you lose a subscriber.

[Ten_Ton_Hammer]

The point of hiding it, is so other people don't find out how to do it and take advantage of it.

 

Yeah, obviously they'd be banned as well -- but banning people does BW no good. It creates anger and frustration and can easily make you lose a subscriber.

 

 

Is it some economy loophole exploit BW can't control?

[tman_ac]

I am not the other person you quoted.

 

it is stealing. you can make free copies for the character the item is bound to and use them on that character any way you want. but making copies and sending them to alts via legacy gear is stealing because you are exploiting the system to avoid paying the discounted CC price on your alts.

 

And again, it's not stealing if you send over the free copies from your toon. You can't steal something that is free in the first place. It would be stealing if you unlock copies on an Alt without paying the CC.

 

You obviously don't know what that word means. If my Alt hijacked my main char and just draw some bloody crystals then it would be stealing.

 

Legacy gear makes it obsolete to use the collections system according to crystals. That is what Legacy gear is meant to be. If BW didn't think about this before, it's their fault.