Concerns About Players Being Suspended

[MarcusDenFete]

Warcry.com posted an article about it: http://www.warcry.com/news/view/124290-SWTOR-Dev-BioWare-Bans-Innocent-Players-Deletes-Their-Forum-Posts

 

Bioware removed my bug report about the issue that I posted on the 16th of may. When I posted it they gave it no attention until they removed it today without a word. Luckily I took a picture before removal: http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=51siyp&s=5

 

They are trying to hide evidence of their failure..

[Jadescythe]

The way you described it... you are actually using Legacy gear the way it as intended by design. You are not using it for mod-muling.

 

That said.. just make sure you do not do it with any weapons that have cartel crystals in tem until we see an all clear statement by Eric & staff.

 

This is the same thing as what you are saying is not designed. The exception being that you have to look hideous rather than putting the mods in gear you like. Are you for seriousing us right now?

[tman_ac]

Yeah, they bungled the entire rollout of legacy gear IMO. Just because clever players found a loophole to use it as mod mules does not change the fact, and does not mitigate the loophole as also poor design on their part.

 

You don't even need to be clever to figure that out. Else all SWTOR players are highly genius, or all BW Developers are dumb as hell. Legacy gear is not a loophole. It is working as intended. When they gave us the first legacy weapon in August last year during the chevin event, there were a lot of threads where players "thanked" BW for that cause they now can send over bound color crystals.

 

At the same time there were threads where players were asking when we get a legacy saber so we can as well send over Hilts. (At the chevin event you could only get the crossbows which are using barrels)

 

So, if it was a loophole don't you think they would have already fixed it months ago? No, they gave us even more legacy gear with the Gree event. THEY KNEW THAT PLAYERS ARE USING THIS GEAR TO SEND OVER MODS/COLOR CRYSTALS!

 

Now, when it comes up to their CM and cash, it is suddenly an exploit and they ban players? Come on Andryah, you can't be serious. May I ask you for what reason you use your legacy gear? You really never sent over a single Mod to another toon?

Edited May 23, 2013 by tman_ac

[Benfynyn]

Warcry.com posted an article about it: http://www.warcry.com/news/view/124290-SWTOR-Dev-BioWare-Bans-Innocent-Players-Deletes-Their-Forum-Posts

 

Bioware removed my bug report about the issue that I posted on the 16th of may. When I posted it they gave it no attention until they removed it today without a word. Luckily I took a picture before removal: http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=51siyp&s=5

 

They are trying to hide evidence of their failure..

 

/sigh

 

They need to have a conversation with us about what specifically happened, how they are fixing it and why they took the steps they did. Instead they are trying to put the genie back in the bottle.

[Ratajack]

Still, since I own these crystals it is my gosh damn right to send them over to my other toons. If this means it unlocks the collection on that specific char, it is not my fault. I payed for these crystals, so I can send them over to any toon of my desire.

 

But yeh, making free copies and send over the copies is something that shouldn't be possible. In the end, the collections feature and the legacy gear feature have a huge conflict. And again, not the player's fault, it is BW's fault. Everyone with a little bit of understanding would have spotted that within the first 5 minutes, as I did.

 

You acknowledge the fact that making free copies and sending them to alts is something that should not happen. Yet, you want to blame BW and not the players who CHOSE to do something that "should not happen". It is ultimately up to the player to be accountable for their actions, and not up to a third party to insure that there are no loopholes which can be exploited.

 

I guess the best way to say it is integrity is not doing the right thing because someone is watching you or you think you'll get caught if you do the wrong thing, but rather doing the right thing when no one is watching and no one will ever know you did the wrong thing.

[Jadescythe]

They are trying to hide evidence of their failure..

 

I deleted out the part of your quote that breaks ToS to hopefully not get deleted myself. If you post what an exploit is, then people may take advantage of said exploit before it is fixed. That is why exploits are not and will not be listed on the known issue thread. Common sense. If you were not involved in the exploit and were incorrectly banned as the article you have states, then hopefully they will redeem themselves to you.

[Andryah]

This is the same thing as what you are saying is not designed. The exception being that you have to look hideous rather than putting the mods in gear you like. Are you for seriousing us right now?

 

You are only reading what you want to read. No point in further discussing with you, to be honest.

[Pistols]

Warcry.com posted an article about it: http://www.warcry.com/news/view/124290-SWTOR-Dev-BioWare-Bans-Innocent-Players-Deletes-Their-Forum-Posts

 

Bioware removed my bug report about the issue that I posted on the 16th of may. When I posted it they gave it no attention until they removed it today without a word. Luckily I took a picture before removal: http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=51siyp&s=5

 

They are trying to hide evidence of their failure..

 

An excellent article portraying how bad the team dealt with this issue.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Pistols

[MiaRB]

 

Now, when it comes up to their CM and cash, it is suddenly an exploit and they ban players? Come on Andryah, you can't be serious. May I ask you for what reason you use your legacy gear? You really never sent over a single Mod to another toon?

 

just stop it. you know that it is not the same thing. using legacy gear to transfer mods you earned in the game in a legit way is not the same thing as exploiting the collection system to bypass spending CCs to get the item on other characters. anyone who has done that is stealing, just like someone who shoplifts in real life.

[Zantiana]

So I can see how duping a crystal from the collections menu then sending it to alts could be considered an exploit. Makes sense.

 

But. Say I buy a CM crystal from the GTN (or the CM), then using a legacy weapon send it to a couple of alts (which you could do pre 2.1, i've used crystals on toons before 2.1 then changed my mind and sent it to an alt instead) is that an exploit? If i swap the spec on my Vanguard to a dps spec and then send my +41 endurance Derelict Purple crystals to my shadow so he can make use of them (something i've done pre 2.1) is that an exploit?...

 

... is this lamp an exploit? Am I an exploit?

 

The PR guys really need to clarify this pretty quickly as the situation right now is confusing at best. Hell even if they detailed the exploit so we knew BUT made it absolutely clear that its bannable and they will enforce that ban. That can't hurt right?

[Benfynyn]

An excellent article portraying how bad the team dealt with this issue.

 

You got to love the pic they used too.

[Ratajack]

Technically, it isn't your right -- they can remove that functionality. <--only being the devils advocate.

 

However, I 100% agree with this. I don't believe people who were solely transferring the ORIGINAL crystal, and not transferring copies, should've been banned. That would be a truly unintended consequence of something you could do with no issues pre-2.1.

 

As I said somewhere else, I did the same thing -- but wasn't banned because my crystal I transferred wasn't a CM crystal, therefore wasn't in Collections.

 

Ex: My main had a pretty blue saber crystal. She then got a pretty black/purple crystal. I wanted the black/purple on her, so I gave an alt the blue one, so it wouldn't go unused in a bank. THAT should be allowed -- but the Collections system has muddied this all up.

 

I have to disagree with this statement as it would open up a very similar similar but slightly different option for exploit. If they allowed the transfer of the original crystal, I send the "original" from my warrior to my gunslinger alt, who will now have the crystal in their personal collection, and therefore can create their own copies. I make a new free copies on my warrior to replace the "original" crystal I sent to my alt. I can then send the "original" crystal to my trooper and create free copies on my gunslinger, starting the whole process over.

[tman_ac]

just stop it. you know that it is not the same thing. using legacy gear to transfer mods you earned in the game in a legit way is not the same thing as exploiting the collection system to bypass spending CCs to get the item on other characters. anyone who has done that is stealing, just like someone who shoplifts in real life.

 

So wait, first you say it's a loophole to send over mods/armorings/crystals blabla and it was not meant to be working in that way, now where I ask you for what reason you use your legacy gear you compare it with the collections again?

 

I clearly stated that it shouldn't be possible to send over duplicated crystals. However, I do NOT agree that the legacy gear is in general not working as intended.

 

Besides the fact that you are always defending BW, I just try to get a clue for what reason you use your legacy gear. As you said, only clever players "abused" it to send over mods or whatever.

[curtkram]

I deleted out the part of your quote that breaks ToS to hopefully not get deleted myself. If you post what an exploit is, then people may take advantage of said exploit before it is fixed. That is why exploits are not and will not be listed on the known issue thread. Common sense. If you were not involved in the exploit and were incorrectly banned as the article you have states, then hopefully they will redeem themselves to you.

 

i don't think that's breaking the ToS by explaining an exploit. this is a post from last night (Retajack is still involved in the discussion and repeating his same stance). it hasn't been deleted, and i believe it is pretty clear about how to dupe a crystal in the way you are thinking is an exploit.

 

Let me get this straight. You claim you are not a cheater.

 

You admit that you have a character who has a cartel crystal in his collection and that you did not buy the unlock to create multiple copies on other characters. You created at least one copy of this crystal, sent it to an alt who does NOT have that crystal in their collection, and therefore cannot create free copies, since the character with the crystal in his collection now possesses the crystal which the alt had prior to 2.1.

 

How is creating free copies of crystals for characters who do not have them in their collection and then using legacy weapons to send them to those alts, thus bypassing having to spend those CC's to purchase the collection unlock not cheating? This is made worse by the fact that you also freely admit that you have at least 5 unbound white hawkeye crystals that you could have sent to that alt, and in so doing, avoid the situation in which you now find yourself.

[Kilora]

I have to disagree with this statement as it would open up a very similar similar but slightly different option for exploit. If they allowed the transfer of the original crystal, I send the "original" from my warrior to my gunslinger alt, who will now have the crystal in their personal collection, and therefore can create their own copies. I make a new free copies on my warrior to replace the "original" crystal I sent to my alt. I can then send the "original" crystal to my trooper and create free copies on my gunslinger, starting the whole process over.

 

That is exactly the problem.

 

The transfer of the ORIGINAL crystal SHOULD be allowed -- but it should either NOT count in collections, or it should be REMOVED from the other character.

 

That is the key issue here. Pre-2.1 moving crystals around was absolutely ok. Because of the way they implemented the new Collections system -- it is now only OK with non-CM crystals that are not tracked in collections.

[Ratajack]

here is my hypothetical.

if i have 5 toons on a server, each one having 2 crystals (mainhand and offhand) that's 10 crystals. we will leave companions out for convenience.

 

let's say i have a white-black crystal on my main, the lvl 10 cartel crystals on 3 other characters, and the 5th is just off the starter planet with nothing.

 

i copy the white-black a bunch and give it to all toons without the cc unlock. that's 9 dupes, and potentially 9,000,000 credits. i can't actually turn them into credits though, and i didn't actually spend those credits, so note that there isn't an effect on the overall economy.

or

i copy the white-black once, which is allowable by everyone's standard?, which is potentially 1,000,000 credits. the other toons have crystals with the same stats, just a cosmetic difference, except the starter planet guy. now i have to buy new crystals off the cartel market or gtn for that last toon. that's what, 30,000 maybe for a cheap crystal?

 

what's the effect on the overall economy there? it's just cosmetic. it's not p2win or anything. all things considered, the effect of transferring crystals on the overall game is very small.

 

Or, you could pay the CC fee to unlock those crystals account wide and create copies for all your characters.

[Jadescythe]

You are only reading what you want to read. No point in further discussing with you, to be honest.

 

An exceptional cop out to losing an argument. But sending my operative legacy armor with 72 mods to my marauder to use on Quinn is no different than sending my 72 mods I use on Quinn to my operative. Essentially you are saying that it's ok to pass bound mods to alts as long as they stay in the legacy gear. How is putting those mods into a different piece of gear game breaking and unintended to the point of needing a fix? You're arguing this point for the sake of arguing at this point and don't have a leg to stand on other than "that's not what was intended" which you have no evidence to prove and is ultimately a better option in doing exactly what you've already said is ok.

 

I'm going to stop going back and forth with you simply because you "feel" this is wrong and nothing will change that.

[MarcusDenFete]

When are we getting a statement?..

[Kilora]

i don't think that's breaking the ToS by explaining an exploit. this is a post from last night (Retajack is still involved in the discussion and repeating his same stance). it hasn't been deleted, and i believe it is pretty clear about how to dupe a crystal in the way you are thinking is an exploit.

 

It IS breaking the ToS -- but it seems they've given up on actioning everyone talking about this. Word is already out.

 

 

 

 

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[MiaRB]

So wait, first you say it's a loophole to send over mods/armorings/crystals blabla and it was not meant to be working in that way, now where I ask you for what reason you use your legacy gear you compare it with the collections again?

 

I clearly stated that it shouldn't be possible to send over duplicated crystals. However, I do NOT agree that the legacy gear is in general not working as intended.

 

Besides the fact that you are always defending BW, I just try to get a clue for what reason you use your legacy gear. As you said, only clever players "abused" it to send over mods or whatever.

 

I think you are confusing me with someone else. I never said using legacy gear to transfer mods that were earned in a legit way was exploiting anything. the fact that a very large number of people have been doing it ever since legacy gear was launched and no one was ever banned for that says that it isn't considered an exploit.

 

but using legacy gear to steal from the CC store is not the same thing and no one should be surprised or upset that BW took action against those people.

[BadOrb]

Legacy gear should have been adpative gear to begin with.. being legacy gear designed to be reused. So yeah, for gear designed for reusability, it's poorly designed IMO.

 

Then again, it's release pre-dates adpative gear now doesn't it? But surely they had to know adaptive gear was coming in a few months.

 

Yeah, they bungled the entire rollout of legacy gear IMO. Just because clever players found a loophole to use it as mod mules does not change the fact, and does not mitigate the loophole as also poor design on their part.

 

If Bioware really wanted to endorse/encourage players to move bound mods around their legacy, they could have simply made little boxes that were designed for that purpose. They did not. And players are clever.. they found an easter egg path to get there inside poor design.

 

I think you are way off the mark. Legacy kits are all over the Ilum event and Makeb , so no legacy gear isn't antique at all. If indeed you are correct then why haven't they changed the legacy gear ? Especially since they actually changed the way hilts , armoring , barrels work recently ? BioWare aren't stupid they knew and know that these legacy items are used to send from character to character , who cares if that makes them useful in two ways , they are all the better for it .

 

Obviously they overlooked this for this new collections list and thus didn't intend for people to be able to send these new copies of items to other characters ( without paying for the unlock with CC ).

 

We needed something to do with all are leveling up cast off mods anyway and then came the legacy items , voila. Everyone knew about it and talked openly about it. If they where designed poorly then so be it , who cares , still doesn't mean people should be banned for doing what "most" of us did or "do".

 

All my planning in-game since we got legacy items was based around using those items to send mods to my other characters in my legacy. I have around 4 cargo bays on 9 characters and about 2-3 on the remaining 7 characters ( they where created later ) , guess what fills up a lot of that space ? MODS! Recently though when 2.0 appeared on the PTS , I was then forced to spend tonnes of the old planet comms so as to get my totals down to 100 , I mean literally 3 weeks work on and off it took me. So my cargo bays are even more full of mods , some bound some not. So please don't tell me it wasn't intended. An example would be one of the pink level 10 crystals , my plan was when that character got to level 50 , would be to take the level 10 crystal out and send it via one of my many bowcasters to a below 50 character.

 

BTW sometimes I will leave the mods in the legacy gear , or even buy a set of gree to send with old mods in to wear on an alt , doesn't matter if the mods stay in or not , it's the same difference.

 

I do see your point though ,but IMO you are incorrect. We will hopefully find out soon.

 

Cheers,

 

BadOrb.

Edited May 23, 2013 by BadOrb

[Calabask]

My ban has been lifted. Happy day.

[curtkram]

i know kilora, but i don't think that's the exploit you're looking for. just an opinion, and your opinion is different, which i respect.

 

i like the stealing analogy:

just stop it. you know that it is not the same thing. using legacy gear to transfer mods you earned in the game in a legit way is not the same thing as exploiting the collection system to bypass spending CCs to get the item on other characters. anyone who has done that is stealing, just like someone who shoplifts in real life.

so i go to the convenient store a pick up a candy bar and buy it. then i think, 'that looks good maybe i'll get another.'

but i don't have to buy the second. ooh, look, i can make a bunch of copies for free. surely that's not really how it works. <copy>. hmm. maybe it is that easy. <copy> <copy>. maybe i'll give a candy bar to my companion. hey look, that's allowable and encouraged too. <copy>. maybe i'll give one to my alt while i'm at it.

<sirens>

***? this is where you draw the line?

[Ratajack]

You don't even need to be clever to figure that out. Else all SWTOR players are highly genius, or all BW Developers are dumb as hell. Legacy gear is not a loophole. It is working as intended. When they gave us the first legacy weapon in August last year during the chevin event, there were a lot of threads where players "thanked" BW for that cause they now can send over bound color crystals.

 

At the same time there were threads where players were asking when we get a legacy saber so we can as well send over Hilts. (At the chevin event you could only get the crossbows which are using barrels)

 

So, if it was a loophole don't you think they would have already fixed it months ago? No, they gave us even more legacy gear with the Gree event. THEY KNEW THAT PLAYERS ARE USING THIS GEAR TO SEND OVER MODS/COLOR CRYSTALS!

 

Now, when it comes up to their CM and cash, it is suddenly an exploit and they ban players? Come on Andryah, you can't be serious. May I ask you for what reason you use your legacy gear? You really never sent over a single Mod to another toon?

 

Everyone seems to be hung up on the transferring part of this and completely overlooking or downplaying the possible root cause of the bans--using those legacy weapons in order to dodge the CC cost for the account wide unlock by creating FREE crystals on one character ans sending those FREE copies to other characters.

[ESPP]

The exploit is not sending a crystal with legazy gear people. As some have said before me, since you still can talk about this means that BW don't care about this - the issue is bigger.

 

One person wrote about this (What I now think is the real exploit), and I was lucky enough to read the post before it was removed 1-2 minutes after it was postet. This is about economy in-game. I'll keep this post without talking about this, maybe it will be here tomorrow.

 

I'm sure they will fix a way to stop the easy way around the CM unlock (Gree weapon), as this probably never was intended - but they have bigger issues right now.