The weird people you meet in Group Finder.

[Ryuku-sama]

I feel like I just got plagiarized.

 

I didn,t remeber who did that.. But lol... I did thought of you

[Fidelicatessen]

Oh, come now. He was just tired (as he stated in the post you quoted).

 

He didn't want to spend the next 10-20 minutes trying to convence someone that they should be using Guard differently.

 

As a DPS on all my toons, I feel for him. It is exhausting to be the de facto tank because the Tank has Guard on the Healer and I keep ripping aggro off him and no amount of begging for Guard will change his mind about who should be getting Guard.

 

I've actually stopped trying to explain about Guard and started using visual queues to get the message across and they seem to be working.

 

If the boss is ranged and I'm tanking him, I run to the healer and stop DPSing. Most of the time, this causes the Tank and Healer to realize that I'm the one being shot at and not the Tank. The Tank will normally Taunt the boss back . Of course, that normally only solves the issue for a few seconds and then I'm back to tanking. At this point, if I'm on one of my ranged toons I will continue DPSing but will stand so that the healer is between me and the boss. If on a melee character I will just stand so the Healer is between me and the boss. Either way, at this point, to the Healer it looks like he is being shot at as all the shots are going through him to get to me . Normally after that, the Healer will request that Guard be switched to me. Problem Solved.

 

If the boss is melee, it is even easier to get the message across. I will stop DPSing and start running around, dragging the boss all over the room and away from the Tank causing the Tank to have to run after the boss. This normally causes the Tank to realize he has a Taunt and use it . Of course, as before, that only solves the issue for a few seconds and then I'm back to dragging the boss around the room. This will go on for awhile, normally causes a few shouts of "stop running around" to which I reply "start tanking so I don't have to". After the fight I will suggest that Guard be placed on me. 9 out of 10 times the Healer will agree so Problem Solved.

 

In short, trying to explain to a Tank who is using Guard incorrectly that he is using it incorrectly just doesn't work most of the time. Showing him the efffects of loosing aggro seems to work better .

 

This is SUCH a good idea! I'm going to start using it! I am SO TIRED of having to explain how agro works and then being told to sod off (I guess that means I'm a Broken Veteran).

[ninjakenzen]

There's always at least a minimum of 2 people I meet in GF OPS who are give-uppers and brighten everyone else's day.

 

Then we place our hopes and dreams into the glorious GF re-queue function that always works like a charm in OPS to bring us our people back.

 

I also find people in HM GF there are the special types [and often time share the same group mentality] who just instant kick people for asking a question about the FP or not skipping a cutscene on the dot.

 

Weird...but how can it weird if its a common occurrence.

Edited September 10, 2014 by ninjakenzen

[Halinalle]

Guardian is correctly specced and using the correct stance but is completely clueless. No strategy. No kill order, Tunnel vision.

 

That's the thing about Guardian/Juggernaut tankin at low levels

- You have to run around and hit everything (it does look like tank doesn't know what to do or who to hit)

- Kill order for all tank classes: Champion -> Elite -> Strong -> Standard/Weak

Edited September 10, 2014 by Halinalle

[Elusive_Thing]

That's the thing about Guardian/Juggernaut tankin at low levels

- You have to run around and hit everything (it does look like tank doesn't know what to do or who to hit)

- Kill order for all tank classes: Champion -> Elite -> Strong -> Standard/Weak

Yeah, some players asked me about my weird movements before I got the AoE taunt, Saber Throw and all that. Even in lowbies I always tried to get as many enemies on me as possible, but it takes a lot more effort than with an Assassin or PT. It doesn't help when half of the DPS players all hellbent on tunneling the strongest enemy while you gather the mobs around with virtually no ranged abilities and only Smash for AoE.

[ZeroPlus]

This is SUCH a good idea! I'm going to start using it! I am SO TIRED of having to explain how agro works and then being told to sod off (I guess that means I'm a Broken Veteran).

 

The sad part is that it goes against everything I (and probably many others) learnt over the years of playing MMOs. I learnt over the years to "run towards the Tank" so that he could grab aggro again.

 

But that was when Tanks knew they were Tanks and behaved accordingly. You still had bad tanks but (*most of the time*) they learnt what they did wrong and got better.

 

Unfortunately, lately people seem to select the "Tank" (or "Healer") role not because they want to Tank (or Heal) but because they either:

a) don't know that they should unselect the role from the Group Finder window (honest mistake and with a little explanation the problem is solved)

or

b) because they do know that they should unselect it but they want a faster queue and are depending on the rest of the group to make up for them not being tanks/healers (these are the worst offenders and I get a feeling many of them were in the "a" group initially and then just thought "to hell with it" and reselected the role for the faster queues ).

 

I think the solution to this problem needs to come from Bioware. Just as the Group Finders knows whether your class can Tank/DPS/Heal based on your Class, it should also be able to check your skill tree. To be able to select the Tank role from level 20 onwards, the player needs to have at least one point in the 3rd tier of the tanking tree (when tanks get access to their damage reduction abilities). The same would be true for the Healer role, as it is in the 3rd tier that Healers get access to their heal over time abilities. This would solve the "a" and "b" problem .

 

While the above wouldn't solve the problem of the Tanks (or healers) that don't know how their abilities really work or how they should be tanking/healing initially, the fact that they are forced to at least be specced into the role to be able to select it will (hopefully) lead to them actually become competent at the role over time.

 

Until that becomes a reality though, I guess we will just have to continue providing visual queues .

[Ryuku-sama]

The sad part is that it goes against everything I (and probably many others) learnt over the years of playing MMOs. I learnt over the years to "run towards the Tank" so that he could grab aggro again.

 

But that was when Tanks knew they were Tanks and behaved accordingly. You still had bad tanks but (*most of the time*) they learnt what they did wrong and got better.

 

Unfortunately, lately people seem to select the "Tank" (or "Healer") role not because they want to Tank (or Heal) but because they either:

a) don't know that they should unselect the role from the Group Finder window (honest mistake and with a little explanation the problem is solved)

or

b) because they do know that they should unselect it but they want a faster queue and are depending on the rest of the group to make up for them not being tanks/healers (these are the worst offenders and I get a feeling many of them were in the "a" group initially and then just thought "to hell with it" and reselected the role for the faster queues ).

 

I think the solution to this problem needs to come from Bioware. Just as the Group Finders knows whether your class can Tank/DPS/Heal based on your Class, it should also be able to check your skill tree. To be able to select the Tank role from level 20 onwards, the player needs to have at least one point in the 3rd tier of the tanking tree (when tanks get access to their damage reduction abilities). The same would be true for the Healer role, as it is in the 3rd tier that Healers get access to their heal over time abilities. This would solve the "a" and "b" problem .

 

While the above wouldn't solve the problem of the Tanks (or healers) that don't know how their abilities really work or how they should be tanking/healing initially, the fact that they are forced to at least be specced into the role to be able to select it will (hopefully) lead to them actually become competent at the role over time.

 

Until that becomes a reality though, I guess we will just have to continue providing visual queues .

 

You're right.. But wrong over a little thing.

Guardian tank. Before lvl 30 and an AoE taunt, Swelling Wind and Single Saber Mastery are much more important than the tank tree. So 5 points under your expectation.

Sage healer. Points in Inner Strenght and Mental Longevity make healing much easier until you get Preservation at lvl 23 where you only keep Mental Longevity for the buff up and the extra regeneration from Noble Sacrifice.

[Kymerous]

Was on my marauder the other day, doing Mando Raiders HM. Tank was a guadian with just over 46k hp, other dps was new at like 24k hp and healer was bout 28k. Trash is dying wicked quick, but the tank keeps asking to leave the taunting to him, seeing as how he is the only toon with a tank, i really just ignore it, and keep going.

 

Before the 1st boss the tank says "hey, mara, let me tank, stop taunting" to which I just kinda chuckle to myself, and keep on going. First boss, tank is trying to tank the dogs, and i see him attempting to taunt the dogs and boss, first boss finally drops, as I am looting a vote kick pops up...for me...with the reason of "marauder wont stop taunting" and it went through...i was just amazed by it.

[AAAAzrael]

Don't worry - I recently had this brilliant idea to queue for random FP on my shadow as a DPS and a tank asked me to DPS less as he can't keep aggro He couldn't even after I stealthed out after he taunted of me and then used aggro drop after he taunted again. Not that it matter I could tank HM FP in DPS gear, just he was really unhappy with me doing too much DPS. I put this under #pro_dps_problems ;-)

[ZeroPlus]

Was on my marauder the other day, doing Mando Raiders HM. Tank was a guadian with just over 46k hp, other dps was new at like 24k hp and healer was bout 28k. Trash is dying wicked quick, but the tank keeps asking to leave the taunting to him, seeing as how he is the only toon with a tank, i really just ignore it, and keep going.

 

Before the 1st boss the tank says "hey, mara, let me tank, stop taunting" to which I just kinda chuckle to myself, and keep on going. First boss, tank is trying to tank the dogs, and i see him attempting to taunt the dogs and boss, first boss finally drops, as I am looting a vote kick pops up...for me...with the reason of "marauder wont stop taunting" and it went through...i was just amazed by it.

 

Wow... everyone at level 55 and they didn't know a Marauder cannot Taunt...

 

Just one question: were you pulling "ahead" of the tank or pulling "aggro" from the tank?

[Kymerous]

Wow... everyone at level 55 and they didn't know a Marauder cannot Taunt...

 

Just one question: were you pulling "ahead" of the tank or pulling "aggro" from the tank?

 

Pulling aggro from him, I was even nice and counted to 3 before jumping in.

[ZeroPlus]

Pulling aggro from him, I was even nice and counted to 3 before jumping in.

 

You definetely lucked out with that group .

[BigBreakfast]

Was on my marauder the other day, doing Mando Raiders HM. Tank was a guadian with just over 46k hp, other dps was new at like 24k hp and healer was bout 28k. Trash is dying wicked quick, but the tank keeps asking to leave the taunting to him, seeing as how he is the only toon with a tank, i really just ignore it, and keep going.

 

Before the 1st boss the tank says "hey, mara, let me tank, stop taunting" to which I just kinda chuckle to myself, and keep on going. First boss, tank is trying to tank the dogs, and i see him attempting to taunt the dogs and boss, first boss finally drops, as I am looting a vote kick pops up...for me...with the reason of "marauder wont stop taunting" and it went through...i was just amazed by it.

 

I wonder if telling him that you don't have taunts would have prevented the kick.

Can't believe it went through, that's very upsetting.

[Kymerous]

I wonder if telling him that you don't have taunts would have prevented the kick.

Can't believe it went through, that's very upsetting.

 

If at 55, you need to tell someone your class doesnt have taunts...its probably not a group you should be running with anyhow lol

[ZeroPlus]

You're right.. But wrong over a little thing.

Guardian tank. Before lvl 30 and an AoE taunt, Swelling Wind and Single Saber Mastery are much more important than the tank tree. So 5 points under your expectation.

Sage healer. Points in Inner Strenght and Mental Longevity make healing much easier until you get Preservation at lvl 23 where you only keep Mental Longevity for the buff up and the extra regeneration from Noble Sacrifice.

 

True. Thanks for pointing that out .

 

I personally would have no problem with the restriction of having at least 11 points in the tanking/healing tree kicking in at level 25 to allow the player to get some stuff from the other trees that can help in fulfilling the role. I wouldn't want it to happen too late though so players who want to tank/heal have the time to learn what they need to learn by the time they hit max level and start doing HM/Operation content.

(NOTE: I know that there are some out there that would be hurt if this limitation was put in place. There are experienced players out there that can get by as a tank/healer without being specced into the role. Those are the guys that know how to play. That carry 2 sets of gear with them. That use their Taunts, Guard and Defensive Cooldowns correctly. But, to be honest, these players aren't that common out there in PUG-land and I sincerely believe that it would be good for everybody if this ever became a reality. )

 

The idea after all is that it be a "conscious" decision by the player to specialize into the tanking/healing tree that is "enforced" by the game.

 

Would be nice if it became a reality .

Edited September 10, 2014 by ZeroPlus

[BigBreakfast]

If at 55, you need to tell someone your class doesnt have taunts...its probably not a group you should be running with anyhow lol

 

True enough. But to be fair, maras have some... surprising abilities that can catch people off guard if they're new or have never played a mara or looked into their skills.

 

Even when I had a few 55s, I was still thinking stuff like,

"did that mara just stealth?"

"did that mara just cc?"

"how's that mara healing me?"

 

He also probably didn't know about the taunt debuff that he could check.

 

There was this post too:

Fourth pull, I zen/cauterise again, after the pull:

Sage: "just dps <my name> don't bother healing"

Me: "that is dps, the healing is a side effect of my auto-crits"

Sage: "stop f**king healing".

 

In any case, it's certainly not enough to kick someone. Too bad it just takes 1 other ignorant person to have the kick go through.

Edited September 10, 2014 by BigBreakfast

[bdatt]

Was on my marauder the other day, doing Mando Raiders HM. Tank was a guadian with just over 46k hp, other dps was new at like 24k hp and healer was bout 28k. Trash is dying wicked quick, but the tank keeps asking to leave the taunting to him, seeing as how he is the only toon with a tank, i really just ignore it, and keep going.

 

Before the 1st boss the tank says "hey, mara, let me tank, stop taunting" to which I just kinda chuckle to myself, and keep on going. First boss, tank is trying to tank the dogs, and i see him attempting to taunt the dogs and boss, first boss finally drops, as I am looting a vote kick pops up...for me...with the reason of "marauder wont stop taunting" and it went through...i was just amazed by it.

 

If you took 20 seconds to explain some stuff a) you probably wouldn't have been kicked and b ) there would now be a better player queuing as a tank.

 

You probably out gear him since the mods from comm dps gear are more powerful than comm tank gear (basing on his health and assumption he's not farming NiM DP). So if there's skill/gear difference be patient or helpful and slow down your dps. It's a freaking flashpoint you don't need to go full nuts. If it's a kill order problem (you could be at fault for having gold fever) another 20 sec explaination.

 

And to the boss, again a 20 second explanation of mechanics and offering a tip to look at enemy buff tooltips (showing the dogs are not tauntable) would make him a better player and create a better gaming community. If he doesn't accept constructive feedback, /ignore.

[Kymerous]

If you took 20 seconds to explain some stuff a) you probably wouldn't have been kicked and b ) there would now be a better player queuing as a tank.

 

You probably out gear him since the mods from comm dps gear are more powerful than comm tank gear (basing on his health and assumption he's not farming NiM DP). So if there's skill/gear difference be patient or helpful and slow down your dps. It's a freaking flashpoint you don't need to go full nuts. If it's a kill order problem (you could be at fault for having gold fever) another 20 sec explaination.

 

And to the boss, again a 20 second explanation of mechanics and offering a tip to look at enemy buff tooltips (showing the dogs are not tauntable) would make him a better player and create a better gaming community. If he doesn't accept constructive feedback, /ignore.

 

 

im all for helping decent players get better....but im sorry, its NOT my job to teach someone their class or role. if they have a basic understanding, i will def help, but clueless....AND 55....nope, not bothering

[ZeroPlus]

If you took 20 seconds to explain some stuff a) you probably wouldn't have been kicked and b ) there would now be a better player queuing as a tank.

 

You probably out gear him since the mods from comm dps gear are more powerful than comm tank gear (basing on his health and assumption he's not farming NiM DP). So if there's skill/gear difference be patient or helpful and slow down your dps. It's a freaking flashpoint you don't need to go full nuts. If it's a kill order problem (you could be at fault for having gold fever) another 20 sec explaination.

 

And to the boss, again a 20 second explanation of mechanics and offering a tip to look at enemy buff tooltips (showing the dogs are not tauntable) would make him a better player and create a better gaming community. If he doesn't accept constructive feedback, /ignore.

 

All valid advice that would/should make a difference.

 

The reality is, unfortunately, a little different. When you are in a group like the one he was in, most attempts to explain are just shot down by insults and name calling because, after all, the guy in the wrong is "you":

- You're the one "taunting" the boss off the tank.

- You're the one being unreasonable because obviously Guard goes on the healer so that they take less damage/damage they take is transfered to the tank.

- Who are you to be telling someone that they are doing something wrong or trying to explain that a fight cannot be zerged because there is a mechanic attached to the fight?

- Not to mention that checking buffs on an enemy is elitist so you are just being an elitist jerk.

For all these reasons you obviously deserve to be kicked from the group.

 

[Kymerous]

All valid advice that would/should make a difference.

 

The reality is, unfortunately, a little different. When you are in a group like the one he was in, most attempts to explain are just shot down by insults and name calling because, after all, the guy in the wrong is "you":

- You're the one "taunting" the boss off the tank.

- You're the one being unreasonable because obviously Guard goes on the healer so that they take less damage/damage they take is transfered to the tank.

- Who are you to be telling someone that they are doing something wrong or trying to explain that a fight cannot be zerged because there is a mechanic attached to the fight?

- Not to mention that checking buffs on an enemy is elitist so you are just being an elitist jerk.

For all these reasons you obviously deserve to be kicked from the group.

 

 

 

Were you in my group lol, aside from the checking buffs part, the rest of what you said was spot on for their reasoning for me having to go lol

 

On another note, I dont care that I was kicked from a group, Im more worried that the reasoning behind why I was kicked, has become the "norm"

[DrewFromPhilly]

Lower your dps for a bad tank? I hope that's a joke, even if it was just a HMFP. I mean, especially because it was just a hmfp because I've pretend tanked many of the bosses in those on my sent/mara after the tank dies. Or if the tank is a terrible tank and I find myself pulling aggro despite using my dump on cooldown and despite having guard - or, could be one of those tanks who puts it on the healer and never takes it off. Either way, I'd rather just get the FP over with and get out of there so I can put the tank on ignore, rather than literally explain tanking 101 in group chat to a total stranger I don't want to ever encounter again.

 

When I pull aggro as DPS I always use my drop, but lowering my dps to accommodate a bad tank is something I would never do. I'd rather be kicked and /ignored then do that, at least that would save me the trouble of using /ignore myself.

 

Especially a tank who blamed a marauder for taunting mobs, which is obviously indicative of a tank who A) has no idea what he's doing, and B) would rather blame someone else for their own shortcomings, rather than figure out what was going wrong. This is not the kind of person I'd waste any of my time explaining anything to.

Edited September 10, 2014 by DrewFromPhilly

[bdatt]

Were you in my group lol

 

I don't really play Imperial side so probably not. Edit: guess that was to the other guy.

 

Approach the community how you wish but a minute of attempts at making a tank better probably pays infinite dividends in shorter queues long term for you dpsers if there are more, better tanks and less folks on /ignore.

Edited September 10, 2014 by bdatt

[Cox_The_Beast]

Well, I used to rip aggro off a PT tank on my Sorc once, and the guy tryed to kick me for that. It took both the other DPS and hte Healer to explain him I couldn't taunt because I don't have them, and that he should have guarded me and focused a bit more on his rotation - too many pew pew pew. With no success, but whatever, I never died, nor did anyone else.

Now that was levelling, if I recall - been ages ago - so definitely less of a problem. But on 55... Wow! The tooltip is there, you just have to read it! And I'd assume the guy did tank before, if he was doing it well enough...

 

Still, lately I saw many crazy things, like Healers that refuse to heal others than themselves or the Tank and Tanks that only bother to keep the big enemy on themselves, so that doesn't surprise me. Looks like levelling has become so easy many just press random buttons and learn nothing of their spec and role...

Edited September 10, 2014 by Cox_The_Beast

[Ryuku-sama]

True. Thanks for pointing that out .

 

I personally would have no problem with the restriction of having at least 11 points in the tanking/healing tree kicking in at level 25 to allow the player to get some stuff from the other trees that can help in fulfilling the role. I wouldn't want it to happen too late though so players who want to tank/heal have the time to learn what they need to learn by the time they hit max level and start doing HM/Operation content.

(NOTE: I know that there are some out there that would be hurt if this limitation was put in place. There are experienced players out there that can get by as a tank/healer without being specced into the role. Those are the guys that know how to play. That carry 2 sets of gear with them. That use their Taunts, Guard and Defensive Cooldowns correctly. But, to be honest, these players aren't that common out there in PUG-land and I sincerely believe that it would be good for everybody if this ever became a reality. )

 

The idea after all is that it be a "conscious" decision by the player to specialize into the tanking/healing tree that is "enforced" by the game.

 

Would be nice if it became a reality .

 

It would... after lvl 30. Pre-lvl 30 fp are a joke for anyone with 'skills'.. Well post lvl 30 are jokes too if you're well specced... (Only fp I ever had trouble was Mealstrom Prison on my first sage healer, first time I was doing it with three other first timers, and invested 10 points out my tree from start so I didn,t have HT to heal correctly...) But with 5 points out of heal tree from start, I heal better than without them. Second healer through them and I a) get bored b) find a way to DPS all the bosses while healing.

 

And anyway.. best tanks pre lvl 30 are Balance Shadow up to FiB, Smashtard Guardian and tank Vang.

[venomlash]

KDY short story:

 

Queued for HMs and tacticals as my Commando. Checked DPS and heals in GF selector, so I get autoslotted as heals. Get a pop for KDY, total of 2 heals (other was a Scoundrel) and 2 DPS (Sentinel and something else).

 

I stay Gunnery specced because my gear is good enough that off-heals can carry a group through a tactical no problem. I tell the group this and offer to respec if we run into trouble. I get this:

 

Sentinel: So let me guess, you queued as healer for a faster queue?

 

*headdesk* TACTICALS, PEOPLE, TACTICALS. ROLE FRICKIN' NEUTRAL.

 

Me: No, I queued as healer because I have field respec and 2 sets of gear, and because I know how to heal.

Sentinel: But healer makes it easier.

Me: But DPS makes it FASTER.

 

One of the other guys pipes up and points out that role selection makes no difference to speed of queue pop in tacticals. It is at about this time that I notice that the Scoundrel, who is also slotted as heals, is actually specced for heals and is doing a fine and dandy job of keeping people alive. Sigh. I go ahead and facetank the instance because Gunnery is stronk.