The weird people you meet in Group Finder.

[Halinalle]

Looks like you ran into a League of Legends player. My condolences.

 

Although, technically, I can sympathise the tiniest amount with the guy. Im at the point with KDY where if I can see the "Waiting for group member" thing for too long, Ill abort the conversation and ditch the group.

 

Do you know what's the funniest and maybe weirdest part? Spacebar Warrior wants everyone to skip convo but they don't skip the shuttle part. "Skip!!1! I want this done as fast as possible! Skip, Noobs!"

Edited August 2, 2014 by Halinalle

[BobFredJohn]

Although, technically, I can sympathise the tiniest amount with the guy. Im at the point with KDY where if I can see the "Waiting for group member" thing for too long, Ill abort the conversation and ditch the group. Its not even close to a direct indication of skill or ability, but with nearly every KDY group being at least 50% moron, its good enough for me.

 

If Im lucky, they will rage and kick me before I load back in. If not, its better than even odds that I just saved myself 30 or 40 minutes of aggravation, so a 12 minute CD is a very reasonable price.

 

I tend to take the opposite view. I think people who lose it over a 2 minute conversation in a 15-20 minute mission are wierd.

 

And I also agree with hailine, I have had people calling spacebar both before and during the conversation. Once its over they stand there and flame in chat, rather than get bloody moving towards the shuttle. Then on the cutscene in the shuttle someone else may abort and suddenly Mr. SPACEBAR!!!!!!!! is now moaning that people skipped the shuttle cutscene.

Edited August 2, 2014 by BobFredJohn

[MWidowmaker]

This one is pretty good:

 

Kuat Drive Yards (Tactical)

I was on my Sorcerer Healer

 

 

Griefer's Toon #1: spacebar plz

Me: don't be that guy

Griefer's Toon #1: ?

Griefer's Toon #1: asking ppl who have seen the same cs over and over to skip it?

Me: you don't know that, so don't be that guy

Griefer's Toon #1: done with you

 

* Not done with me, not by a long shot.

 

Griefer's Toon #1: not gonna waste my time with sumb *******

Griefer's Toon #1: yep sucks as a healer

Griefer's Toon #1: go figure

Griefer's Toon #1: you only slow me down

 

* I asked for a votekick at this point, didn't go through, no big deal, I just stopped healing this guy

 

Griefer's Toon #1: hes a scrub

Griefer's Toon #1: he cant even heal

Me: not being able to heal and choosing not to heal aren't the same thing

Griefer's Toon #1: u just can't heal

Griefer's Toon #1: only one who started something was you kaly

Me: that's fine if you think that, that's why it's a vote to kick, not autokick

Party Member #1: can you huys just chill out

Party Member #2: thanks

 

* At this point I /ignore Griefer's Toon #1 cuz I know how to separate myself from turds and I can only assume he just kept raging at me in chat, then Guildmate talks in guild chat (we're the only ones on).

 

Guildmate: no somebody named Griefer's Toon #1?

Me: yep, in kuat with that turd right now

 

(Griefer's Toon #1 has initiated a vote to kick you from the group. Reason: slowing us down refuseing to heal)

 

Guildmate: LMAO

Me: how do you know about it?

Guildmate: je sent me tell asking for the guild leader

Me: nice

Me: i have him on ignore

Guildmate: lol what did you do?

Me: much rage he has

 

(the vote to kick failed)

 

Guildmate: it is enjoyable I do love cheap entertainment

Me: it's not bad

Guildmate: eh I wouldnt worry about it

Me: i'm not

Me: how did he know to ask you for the info?

Guildmate: most likely guild search know clue though he just randomly asked me if I was the guild leader

 

* KDY ends, I say gg, leave to go about my business, but it's not over, he actually switched characters to get past my /ignore and harass me:

Griefer's Toon #2 Whispers: i really hope it was worth u being a c*** as of now u have been posted on top site endgame guilds use when looking for ppl as someone who can not heal and is very toxic

Griefer's Toon #2 Whispers: gl hope it was worth it for nothing

 

* I didn't reply, of course, and tried to /ignore but they went offline quickly and can't /ignore offline players. I really love the "top site endgame guilds" threat like this is my first day on the Internet and I'm supposed to be afraid.

 

 

- What's a "top site endgame guilds use"?

- *I'm* "very toxic"?

- Trying to tattle on me to my guild leader?

- You can't sit through ONE cut-scene? (especially since this was the <55 KDY so many people are first-timers and haven't seen it yet)

 

PS - I really wish this game had a chat log so I didn't have to type this out.

 

i must have met his brother on my lowbie sent. used all caps SB IS UR FREND SPACEBAR SPACEBAR NOOBS etc.... he rushes off, me and the other 2 guys hang back and let his dumb *** die. one of the snipers loses connection, he initiates a votekick, vote kick fails (i had been talking to the sniper and we agreed we were going to vote raging a hole out), KICK THE NOOB OUT HE IS LD!!!!!!! , sniper comes back another vote kick comes up, sniper is like i am back but ok. vote kick fails. we kill the champion with captain spacebar sitting at the elevator, guess who wins the KDY Construction kit without bothering to help kill the champion... sniper initiates votekick for jackhole reason Ahole, vote kick passes

 

yeah people like that are pretty much a waste of oxygen

[Dorial]

Colicoid War Games

 

I queue up with my lvl41 mando healer. Flashpoint in progress... ooookeeey

 

I zone in, they are fighting on the second turret, so while I run up to them in slo-mo, have plenty of time to take a look on my teammates. Shadow tank, Mando1 dps in plasma cell, Mando2 dps in combat-supprt cell... All above lvl40.

 

We clear the bugs and go ahead to the robots. I was expecting Mando2 to swap cells, but nope, he stays in healing cell. That first group was a hell, almost wiped, no wonder tho, Mando2 was 'offhealing' or something like that instead of dpsing. Which proved useful to some point, couse our tank wasnt really tanking. Watched his bar and the number of buffs on it was 0. No Kinetic ward, no dps procs, only a tiny stack of harnessed shadows from time to time, so he must have been quite up to the tanking tree. His gear was also ok, tanking stuff, but due to his lazyness to use his tanking skills, he was melting like a dps... I inspected Mando2 gear aswell (bad habit of mine...) and he was wearing a rather unusual mix of aim, cunning, willpower and defence... O.o

At this point i gave up on him and ask in chat:

 

Me: why did you queued for a healer when you have one already?

Tank: dunno, you (me) came as dps

Me: nope (i never queue up for another role than my spec, i find it rather stupid if you dont have field respec)

Tank: ahh (he must have been noticed that im labeled as healer while Mando2 as dps)

Mando2: i was queued as dps (he is still in healing cell)

Me: if you are in gunnery tree (i saw some buffs during fight on him from that tree) you should use armor-piercing cell, not combat-support

 

No answer, and on last pack of droids b4 puzzle, he 'dc-d'. After we kill them, we decided to find replacement. So kick and a guardian joins. As dps. In tanking stance and tree. 'Facepalm'

 

Well nevermind, i dont say a word, couse at this point all i want is to finish this as fast as we can and get the hell out of there. While we clear rest of the fp (with some flying and confusion on puzzle ofc) i notice something interesting. Mando1 is in armor-piercing cell now. Oho! I watch his bar in the next pulls and i see some gunnery buffs, but at same time he is spamming charged bolt alot. So i whisper to him

 

Me: gunnery tree?

Mando1: yeah

Me: forget charged bolt then and use grav round instead when full auto and high impact bolt is on cooldown

A bit later

Mando1: nice, ty

When i saw him spamming grav round

Me: thats better

Mando1: it is

 

So we finally kill the last boss with two tanks and a hopefully decent commando dps, who was willing to take advice and improve his gameplay.

[Halinalle]

When i saw him spamming grav round

Me: thats better

 

Actually he should spam Full Auto more than Grav Round. Grav Round only to refresh debuff and finish CD on Full Auto.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Halinalle

[Cox_The_Beast]

Had a good DF run last night, with a Guildie of mine. He's totally new at Ops, but eager to start, and as such, since we saw a call for a 16m DF SM full run and his gear was ok for it, I volunteered us both.

I PuG Ops quite often, and I always carry my own weight, so ppl tends to welcome me. I also took my friend in as DPS on his Sorc. Team was balanced, we took some time to get the last tank, and in the end entered with 15 ppl, after a DPS relogged on his tank and no other DPS could be found. Still, no problem. I had to constantly remind the others that my Guildie was a first timer - more than half of the team revealed they were too, though - but in the end with tactics explanations we made it. I added a few pointers like stay away from me on Nefra so I can manage the droids without screwing things up, but no biggie.

 

Then, in we went. A bit of chaos on the first pull - the big bugs - when the maintank was pushed into lava and the offtank failed to take the third one that was agroed by mistake - kept it busy for a while myself, before the offtank took two of them on himself. GJ offtank!

 

Nefra was easy, as usual I managed droids and we had 0 problems. Tanks did their job perfectly, and even though my Sorc guildie misused a couple of procs, NP at all. He even selfcleansed when healers didn't cleanse us, which is great.

 

The maze before Draxus I had him stick with me, and in three - a Sniper followed us - we cleared the mobs with 0 problems. We were slower than the others, but not by much, actually.

 

Draxus. We made it even when we lost both tanks, thanks to me and another Sorc that kited the Guardians.

Battle rezzed the maintank, and we cleared the boss without much trouble. I died though, sadly I can kite only for so much before dying to dmg.

My Guildie did a great work with interrupts on Corruptors, hard to believe he was on his first time there. I only told him to be careful to Corruptors and to interrupt their Mass Affliction, and he did so quite well. We got two go through, but it was from the other side, since I checked my target, and it wasn't him.

 

At this point a healer dropped, and so we went on with three healers. I whispered them to let me selfheal, in case things went bad, because one thing I understand is getting stressed over compensating for absents. They said ok, and it seems another Sorc did the same too, because they were relieved to have reduced stress, even though they were quite expert at healing and DF.

 

Kamikaze droids were a breeze, for some reason we only lost a few ppl to them, mostly because of server lag, because they were outside the red circles when they died.

 

Grob'thok was fine too, we killed it fast, without losing anyone but a Sniper that had a lag peak.

 

Corruptor IX was quite interesting. No problem at all, not even one death, and we downed it quite fast, but I pulled aggro off the tanks twice... Good thing I have godbubble, I guess.

 

Then someone pulled the encounter before Brontes by mistake, we weren't even all there, so we had to push most of the Subteroths down the hole. But we managed once again.

 

Brontes was interesting. I gave my guildie a few pointers, and guess what? He got them all. Not a single death in the whole encounter but a DPS that lagged a bit at the lightning tentacles. I feel sorry for him, because had I knew I'd have pulled him away...

We selfcleansed the Nanites and annihilated Kephess in a matter of seconds. Interrupted his Charges. Fingers were downed fast and then Hands were focused again. Both times.

Brontes was burned fast and painlessly, though all of us had quite a lot of stacks - around a dozen.

Really, a smooth run. We also got close to destroying the first droid, it had like 4% left when the lightning beam made it explode.

And this time tanking was quite good, unlike most of my runs in DF. Kudos to those tanks.

 

Then all said goodbye, TY for the good run and so on. It was just great.

 

So, I hear you asking, what's weird there?

First of all, that they accepted my Guildie even though I specified he was new beforehands.

Secondly, they were comprehensive when I added a few pointers, because they thought they were meant to make things easier for those that had no idea of what they'd be facing - as I said, more than half the team. I had no right to do so, but I mistook chat: those were meant for my Guildie but came in Ops chat.

So, we had a patient, comprehensive and willing to teach team. Something quite hard to find nowadays. I sincerely hope to find more of these, from now on!

[Dorial]

Actually he should spam Full Auto more than Grav Round. Grav Round only to refresh debuff and finish CD on Full Auto.

 

Yeah... as i wrote:

'Me: forget charged bolt then and use grav round instead when full auto and high impact bolt is on cooldown'

[Halinalle]

Yeah... as i wrote:

'Me: forget charged bolt then and use grav round instead when full auto and high impact bolt is on cooldown'

 

Add Demo Round and Plasma 'nade to that list.

 

Even Electro Net has higher priority than Grav in your rotation at level 51+.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Halinalle

[Dorial]

Add Demo Round and Plasma 'nade to that list.

 

Even Electro Net has higher priority than Grav in your rotation at level 51+.

 

It was a lvl 40 flashpoint... you dont have electro net and demo round at that point. and plasma grenade is kinda only effective with reserve powercell (which can be trained at lvl42) on single target, otherwise eats up your ammo.

All the /w were during the boss fight btw, i didnt want to train him to a top raider, only point him to the right direction, which it seems i managed and im happy with that.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Dorial

[thewitchdoctor]

So ... what exactly is the rotation for a 'DPS PT' supposed to look like? (I have only tanked with mine).

 

'Cause I just did a HMFP with one and it looked a lot like Auto Shot Central. I rarely saw flame thrower or flame burst being used. Heck, rarely saw DFA. And, although he was no where close to taking aggro (I was the other DPS), he used flares on CD. (Names may be off, I have been drinking). Gear was good, too. All 168 or 180 pieces with all the right stats.

 

He also followed BFJ's favourite kill order: boss only.

 

Oh well. We still got it done with no wipes.

[Halinalle]

It was a lvl 40 flashpoint... you dont have electro net and demo round at that point. and plasma grenade is kinda only effective with reserve powercell (which can be trained at lvl42) on single target, otherwise eats up your ammo.

All the /w were during the boss fight btw, i didnt want to train him to a top raider, only point him to the right direction, which it seems i managed and im happy with that.

 

Still he would not do high dps if his rotation was:

 

FA -> Grav -> FA -> Grav -> Grav -> Grav -> FA etc.

 

So ... what exactly is the rotation for a 'DPS PT' supposed to look like? (I have only tanked with mine).

 

'Cause I just did a HMFP with one and it looked a lot like Auto Shot Central. I rarely saw flame thrower or flame burst being used.

 

Middle tree? If yes, then that is indeed weird.

Pyro? If you're using flame thrower then you're doing it wrong.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Halinalle

[Xakthul]

Ooof.... PT rotations? I've only ever played PT Tank....

 

Rocket leap > Flame Sweep (x2, cause gen's no heat) > Rocket Punch > Flamethrower (for crowd control) > electro Dart and the AOE aggro gen (as needed) > lots and lots of railshot and autofire (the channeled one.. forgot what it's called) > grapplehook anything that's on the healer > AOE aggro gen anything that's on anybody but me > Kolto Overload (if the healer's bad)

 

That's just mine...

[Salakast]

Depends on whether AP or Pyro...Basic rotations for both are in Dulfy's guide:

 

http://dulfy.net/2014/01/18/swtor-pyrotech-and-advanced-prototype-powertech-dps-class-guide/

 

If AP you can tell if they know what they're doing by if they are pre-loading Prototype Flame Thrower with out of combat flame sweeps

[BobFredJohn]

He also followed BFJ's favourite kill order: boss only.

 

Lovely Jubly

[Halinalle]

If AP you can tell if they know what they're doing by if they are pre-loading Prototype Flame Thrower with out of combat flame sweeps

 

I didn't know that. I'm not that far in AP yet. I do Flame Sweeps even if I'm not in combat just because it's awesome, lol.

[Ryuku-sama]

Actually he should spam Full Auto more than Grav Round. Grav Round only to refresh debuff and finish CD on Full Auto.

 

Eh... And build your stacks to buff HiB. So 3 Grav Round between each HiB.

[krakadyla]

Ahem...while the discussion on Trooper rotations is way fresher than good ol' cyclical dead horse of "Dost thy Tank place thy Shield on thy Physician, thy DPS or where thy Sun shineth not", it still is a bit too long and not entertaining enough to belong here, don't you think?

 

On topic, although it's not quite weird, but cute -- in a couple past weeks, I encountered three characters that would open their rotations by tossing a snowball at the boss. Nothing improves the mood like seeing Malgus getting a face full of sparkly snow mid his pompous rant.

Edited August 3, 2014 by krakadyla

[TACeMossie]

So ... what exactly is the rotation for a 'DPS PT' supposed to look like? (I have only tanked with mine).

 

'Cause I just did a HMFP with one and it looked a lot like Auto Shot Central. I rarely saw flame thrower or flame burst being used. Heck, rarely saw DFA. And, although he was no where close to taking aggro (I was the other DPS), he used flares on CD. (Names may be off, I have been drinking). Gear was good, too. All 168 or 180 pieces with all the right stats.

 

He also followed BFJ's favourite kill order: boss only.

 

Oh well. We still got it done with no wipes.

 

Pyro:

 

Incendiary Missile, Flame Burst, Rocket Punch, Rail Shot, Flame Burst, Rapid Shots, Flame Burst, Rail Shot, Rocket Punch, Rapid Shots, Flame Burst, Rail shot.

 

Thats what it looks like from level 25 to 44

 

AP:

 

[Preload PFT with flame sweep]

 

Retractable Blade, Flamethrower, Rocket Punch, Rail Shot, Flame Burst, Rapid Shots, Flame Burst, Rapid Shots, Flame Burst, (Rapid Shots to 0 heat)

 

Thats what it looks like level 31 to 44

 

Level 45 makes both rotations a lot more complex, though there are Vanguard translations for both of them in my signiature's guides

Edited August 3, 2014 by TACeMossie

[BobFredJohn]

Just had an interesting time in a heroic 2 on oricon.

 

I was on my jugg tank, with healer comp and the other person was dps with treek comp. I noticed enemies glowing red even when I hadn't taunted and, when looking at the debuffs, see the taunt picture. I notice the enemy is now facing the dps's treek, who ends up getting his small furry behind handed to him in a matter of seconds (clearly hes not geared for tanking).

 

The dps then has a go at me, telling me I should be tanking. I say that I will tank once they switch off treeks aggro generators. They stand there a while, then say they have done it. Next pull, treek taunts, I taunt back off treek each time. Same in the following pull. I then ask the dps to switch off treeks taunt, they tell me to l2p and leave the group.

 

I also have a question which will sound nooby, but if I was to guard treek in this instance would it make any difference, does guard affect/effect (I still don't know which of those to use) companion aggro?

Edited August 3, 2014 by BobFredJohn

[Ryuku-sama]

Just had an interesting time in a heroic 2 on oricon.

 

I was on my jugg tank, with healer comp and the other person was dps with treek comp. I noticed enemies glowing red even when I hadn't taunted and, when looking at the debuffs, see the taunt picture. I notice the enemy is now facing the dps's treek, who ends up getting his small furry behind handed to him in a matter of seconds (clearly hes not geared for tanking).

 

The dps then has a go at me, telling me I should be tanking. I say that I will tank once they switch off treeks aggro generators. They stand there a while, then say they have done it. Next pull, treek taunts, I taunt back off treek each time. Same in the following pull. I then ask the dps to switch off treeks taunt, they tell me to l2p and leave the group.

 

I also have a question which will sound nooby, but if I was to guard treek in this instance would it make any difference, does guard effect companion aggro?

 

Treek taunt are included in DPS abilities. So they can't really be turned off without lowering her DPS. Solution would have been to switch her in healing spec. Guard does affect comp threat. But if they can still taunt it won't change anything.

[Rekkakuski]

Few weird feelings again

My Mara is full 180-geared with Dread Forged Vindi implants and 2 Dread Forged gear-pieces, so hits quite hard.

(i'm not pro, but 3400+ to dummy with Annihilation)

 

Mandalonian Riders: just dinged tank 21k hp with rating 100-140 stuff inc. rating 36 green implants, carried him and I tanked that fp. went fine with good other dps and very good healer.

 

Corporate labs: tank 35k hp put guard to healer. I ask that maybe guard to me.. "**** noob, we need healer u r useless kiddo" funny to tank bosses there with Mara.

 

TfB via gf: tanks guard healers, so very good geared Merc get many times aggro from Kephess. at Terror first phase me and merc had aggro whole time from tentacles.. but gone fine still..

 

And today at Mando: Sage-healer with tk-wave and blind bubble. Thanks god we had derps who know what to do, so no deads.

 

and DP via gf: first other tank with 2018 expertise and 0% achievements to ops, use taunts at cd in tyrans. Hard to do damage with melee when boss jumps everywhere. kicked that pvp-hero out and gone fine with one tank. Get replacement not good geared tank and first timer there, but he told that and we explain tactics. he done very good job.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Rekkakuski

[thewitchdoctor]

Thats what it looks like level 31 to 44

 

Thanks!

 

That is NOT what that PT's rotation looked like tho!

 

But now I know I wasn't just crazy. (Well, I am, but not on this!)

[Dras_Keto]

I tend to take the opposite view. I think people who lose it over a 2 minute conversation in a 15-20 minute mission are wierd.

 

And I also agree with hailine, I have had people calling spacebar both before and during the conversation. Once its over they stand there and flame in chat, rather than get bloody moving towards the shuttle. Then on the cutscene in the shuttle someone else may abort and suddenly Mr. SPACEBAR!!!!!!!! is now moaning that people skipped the shuttle cutscene.

 

Where did I say I "lose it" ? I said I use the intro conversation as a 'metric' for overall run success. I dont think its a particularly good or effective metric, but its KDY, Id rather leave 80 or 90% of the groups Im matched into than deal with the kind of people who can take a super easy 15 or 20 minute XP fest and turn it into an HM operation.

 

If they spacebar, I assume it will go alright and stick around until its clear its not. If they dont, Im out of there as fast as the load screen will let me.

 

As for the shuttle, not everyone knows you can skip that. Ive seen some of the most rapid and violently MUST SKIP EVERYTHING people swear up and down that you cant spacebar that. Plus, a hard abort is supposed to put you back where the 'conversation" started, not where it finishes. That particular cutscene however is just a pure time waster like the Oricon speeder (youre already there, Bioware just feels like you need to stare at something else for a while before they admit it).

 

----

 

As far as the whole merc/PT rotation stuff goes...

 

For mid tree merc/commando, you SPAM the everliving hell out of tracer/grav. The only time you arent using tracer is if you have heatseeker, a 4 or 5 stack rail shot ready, a buffed unload, or the heat to lob off an instant fusion missile. IE, roughly 60% of the time, youre casting tracer.

 

As for PTs, I dont know why you wouldnt what to Dart while gap closing > Incendiary > Rail Shot then start dancing around Incendiary CDs with flame burst, rocket punch and rail shot if you dont have thermal detonator. Its not that big of a difference, but it gets you an extra rail shot at the beginning and more rail shots = more awesome.

[BobFredJohn]

Where did I say I "lose it" ? I said I use the intro conversation as a 'metric' for overall run success. I dont think its a particularly good or effective metric, but its KDY, Id rather leave 80 or 90% of the groups Im matched into than deal with the kind of people who can take a super easy 15 or 20 minute XP fest and turn it into an HM operation.

 

If they spacebar, I assume it will go alright and stick around until its clear its not. If they dont, Im out of there as fast as the load screen will let me.

 

I would say give them a chance. I personally havent noticed a correlation between people skipping and people being sensible. Though I do get your point about "oh if they aren't skipping they must be new", which may be in the most part correct, however I have met some people who say they like the cutscene (I wouldn't know, I only watch class story ones, maybe im missing out on some good backdrop in the side missions, meh).

 

And even those that are new and therefore want to watch, doesn't mean they are the types that wont listen. I also find the "KDY pro's" (though I cringe when I hear that, people who run tacticals so much they can do it blindfolded) are often unwilling to listen.

 

An example at ship assembly, I read out build, some bloke said theres no point, he wants exp from killing the droid. I start explaining the room and notice he has changed his title to Honouary admiral (KDY legend standing) and started going on about how he is a font of knowledge. I shut up, we do it wrong and fight the droids and after killing all 6 I say just 1 sentence "how much exp did you get per droid mate?". He drops group without a word...

 

Skipping the cutscenes is rarely a mark of skill, neither is watching them a mark of noobs. I reckon those 80-90% you miss is an unnecessary lockout. If im honest people not skipping the cutscene does change how I play the mission. First 2 rooms I do as normal, then at the boss I throw out a "all know tacts?" I also tend to deal with people who don't skip by opening up a game of freecell or minesweeper, spam spacebar through the cutscene and if "waiting on group members" pops up I bring up my freecell game, until ofc I need to click an option. Its surprising how much faster they go when your not paying attention.

Edited August 3, 2014 by BobFredJohn

[Dras_Keto]

I personally havent noticed a correlation between people skipping and people being sensible.

 

...

 

There is no correlation. If you graphed it, r would be close to zero. Its kind of my point. I have so little faith in the KDY crowd that I ditch at the very first possible sign of something suboptimal. It doesnt matter to me if they are PVE gods who just want to watch the idiotic excuse for a "story" for the umpteenth time, it is not worth my time, to me, to stick around on a "maybe." The only thing that gets me out of a group faster is if I see a guild tag with any variation of latino or brasilian, or members of certain other guilds with a reputation for uselessness.