Eric Musco please enlight me

[SavingPrincess]

Lol.

So asking you if a company has a legal obligation to give you something you are not being charged for in your subscription (since that hasn't changed) is the same as asking if there is a law that says you have to subscribe to play a game that offers you a way to do so without paying.

OK. Gotcha

 

How do you not understand the subscription has changed? You are no longer paying for story content, but the price has not changed. That's a change in the subscription benefits.

 

Again, story content, has been REMOVED from subscription benefits, since you can no longer pay for story content. This was REPLACED with the 500 Cartel Coin grant. It's being marketed as "nothing has changed, plus we're giving you something more." And congratulations, you're buying that line, but it's simply not true. The subscription benefit HAS changed, as we get LESS now since Story Content is free for everyone. What hasn't changed, is the price.

[TheNahash]

Your attempt at a witty reply has failed.

 

Oh, of course it has.

You have been trying to redefine what "free" means this whole time. Who could possibly be smart enough to make a witty reply to one of your posts?

 

How do you not understand the subscription has changed? You are no longer paying for story content, but the price has not changed. That's a change in the subscription benefits.

 

Define story content.

Because TFB is the only piece of story content - apart from what the expansion offered - that has been introduced and my subscription gave me full access to that.

 

The subscription benefit HAS changed, as we get LESS now since Story Content is free for everyone. What hasn't changed, is the price.

 

We get less story content because the story content we paid for when the game was subs only is now free?

Edited May 2, 2013 by TheNahash

[Anzel]

Most of this post I can totally get behind. He's not arguing the validity of 2.1. He's just saying he doesn't like it. That's fine. I sort of agree that I don't like all of it either. However, he then goes the slipper slope argument by saying it'll turn in to P2W. Apparently they've been "testing us" since the CM first came out with some outfits being exclusive to the CM.

 

I would be quite surprised if they went down the P2W route. I don't think they will but I was quite disappointed when they introduced the STUPID cartel packs. This newest slap in the face with customization and armor dyes makes me wonder though. At some point I will just quit and never come back. Until then I will continue to QQ incessantly and occasionally threaten to quit.

[branmakmuffin]

Oh, of course it has.

Then all is right, the stars are re-aligned and Cthulhu can return to his dreaming in dead R'lyeh.

[Shoogli]

We get less story content because the story content we paid for when the game was subs only is now free?

 

You really should read all the words in a sentence before you reply to it this way...

[SavingPrincess]

We get less story content because the story content we paid for when the game was subs only is now free?

 

You don't "get less" but it's no longer a benefit of the subscription price. Does that make sense?

 

Imagine you are a member of a country club. You have membership that allows you in the door to enjoy full access to the club. Later, the country club decides to open it's doors to everyone. You might still have access to special private rooms, you might pay less for the food, etc. but you can no longer say that getting you in the door is a benefit of your membership.

 

Hope this clears things up for you.

[SavingPrincess]

To put it plainly as possible:

 

You cannot include things that everyone gets for free as a benefit or part of a subscription cost.

[Shikyo]

QUOTE=Lostpenguins;6241247]Actually, no, rewards systems and advertisements are two very different things. In fact, unless they're doing some sort of specific tracking method they're simply taking the advertisement/marketing department as a cost to the company. That's exactly why when times are tough, advertisements and marketing always go down because it's a cost to the company w/out a direct known quantifier of profit.

 

You mean when the ECONOMY takes a hit so they tone down the advertisement??

 

In the context I used advertising and rewards there is no difference in them as they are both done to generate business, which means money.

 

Look, I think it's clear they you merely want to argue semantics, lack or have forgotten what was taught in economics, and have a very basic understanding of business (which requires a understanding of economics mind you) without understanding the vocabulary or definitions associated with those worlds.

 

I mean I don't even know what you are saying no to. My opinion on how I feel as a subscriber? 2+2=4? I thought I was clear that what I was talking about was the economics behind why the arguments of definition were pointless and even more pointless to this thread. And the economics I discussed are correct. Debating them is the same is debating wheter 2+2=4 or not. There have been quotes direct from text books. I'm not sure what else can be done to get you off of this odd crusade of the term "free" and "complimentary" and back on to the point of Subscribers being undervalued as of late.

 

I'm honestly sorry at this point I even tried to educate and get the thread back on point lol

[Pietrastor]

Wait, changing race really costs 800 coins?

[TheNahash]

You really should read all the words in a sentence before you reply to it this way...

 

I did.

What SavingPrincess said is that because the story content is now F2P we have lost story content and that it was replaced by 500 Cartel Coins, so we now get less stuff although we're being told we're getting more. Did I get that right?

 

So here's how I look at it.

People seem to constantly forget that the game went F2P.

When it did, a big part of the game was, naturally, offered for free to players, which of course included content that a lot of people (including myself) had to pay to play when it first came out.

Pity. I wish the game didn't have to go F2P to survive. But it did. So when I read what we'll be keeping as subscribers and what F2P/Preferred players would get, I made a conscious decision to keep my subscription because for me the quickbars, the unlimited credits, warzones, operations and all the other conveniences I knew were essential to my enjoyment of the game. I didn't stay subscribed for the 500 CC/month - although that certainly didn't hurt.

 

To sit here, months after the conversion to F2P and all the other changes and complain that I'm not getting my money's worth because a big chunk of the content is (and has been for a while) free doesn't make sense to me. Nor does complaining that I get 500 coins/month.

 

Also, there has been zero advancement in "my story" and there are no new Class Missions that I didn't get as a subscriber. The only thing I had to pay for was a digital expansion which didn't include any class stories, anyway.

[SavingPrincess]

I did.

What SavingPrincess said is that because the story content is now F2P we have lost story content and that it was replaced by 500 Cartel Coins, so we now get less stuff although we're being told we're getting more. Did I get that right?

 

Very close, but not quite.

 

We didn't lose story content, we lost story content as a "subscription benefit" which means the subscription no longer includes story content, which means something was "removed" from the subscription benefits. Clearer?

 

This was offset by a 500 Cartel Coin grant, which is now being advertised as "complimentary" coins, which really it is there to balance out the fact that our Subscriber Benefits have been reduced.

 

I'll put it this way:

 

-What they want you to see:

Non-Subscription Benefits Package:

1. Story Content

 

Subscription Benefits Package:

1. Story Content

2. 500 Cartel Coins

3. All features originally included not available to F2P players.

 

- The Reality

Non-Subscription Benefits Package:

1. Story Content

 

Subscription Benefits Package:

1. 500 Cartel Coins

2. All features originally included not available to F2P players.

 

It's classic marketing. Try to give psychological value to something that is free. It's why people steal office supplies... We all want to feel like we're getting the deal, so we frame it as such.

 

EDIT: The overall point is that you are paying for those 500 Cartel Coins. They are not free, not complimentary, you are paying for them, every month, whether you want to or not if you are subscribed.

Edited May 2, 2013 by SavingPrincess
Clarification

[TheNahash]

You don't "get less" but it's no longer a benefit of the subscription price. Does that make sense?

 

Imagine you are a member of a country club. You have membership that allows you in the door to enjoy full access to the club. Later, the country club decides to open it's doors to everyone. You might still have access to special private rooms, you might pay less for the food, etc. but you can no longer say that getting you in the door is a benefit of your membership.

 

Hope this clears things up for you.

 

I understand what you're saying but, in your analogy, it's not getting you in the door that you are losing now that anyone can join.

In your example, what you're losing is being the only one who can (e.g.) play golf, while at the same time you retain the benefit of having access to all the other facilities and activities that these new members will still have to pay extra for (and even if they do, they have a limited time they only get temporary access).

And if that helps keep the country club that I like alive, I have no issue with that.

 

In the end, I think it all comes down to the money you pay and what you want those money to get you.

I personally don't really care at all what F2P players have access to, knowing all the little things (that amount to a LOT of frustration) that they have to deal with. As long as I think that that game is worth the money of my sub, I'm fine.

 

 

EDIT: The overall point is that you are paying for those 500 Cartel Coins. They are not free, not complimentary, you are paying for them, every month, whether you want to or not if you are subscribed.

 

Once again, I get what you're trying to say. You've made it quite clear .

We just disagree.

We lost the benefit of having exclusive access to a big part of the old story content - from which you have to exclude Section X and the HK storyline because F2P have to buy it.

As I mentioned before, the story content alone is not enough for me to consider F2P a viable alternative to my subscription. I like having the conveniences that subscription provides, the 12 character slots, the fact that I can do as many FPs or WZs I want etc and THAT'S what I'm paying for, not the 600 cartel coins.

 

If however, those things don't really mean anything to you and the only thing that matters is that you lost the benefit of the old story content, then maybe you should give F2P a try - and I'm honestly not trying to be offensive or anything here.

Edited May 3, 2013 by TheNahash

[SavingPrincess]

I understand what you're saying but, in your analogy, it's not getting you in the door that you are losing now that anyone can join.

In your example, what you're losing is being the only one who can (e.g.) play golf, while at the same time you retain the benefit of having access to all the other facilities and activities that these new members will still have to pay extra for (and even if they do, they have a limited time they only get temporary access).

And if that helps keep the country club that I like alive, I have no issue with that.

 

In the end, I think it all comes down to the money you pay and what you want those money to get you.

I personally don't really care at all what F2P players have access to, knowing all the little things (that amount to a LOT of frustration) that they have to deal with. As long as I think that that game is worth the money of my sub, I'm fine.

I'm a subscriber too, but I also don't like being patronized or lied to. I am a consumer, and I am paying a company money, and as a customer, I get to have some say in the product I'm getting BECAUSE I am paying that money. The end result is I'm either satisfied with the response, or I take my money elsewhere. There's nothing wrong with consumer advocacy.

[Arlbo_Nabbins]

Buying an unlock off the GTN = free

 

Good, so our monthly CC stipend is worth a lot because almost everything on the CM is free for us as we can buy them on the GTN. Can't have it both ways Soluss.

[Andryah]

I'm a subscriber too, but I also don't like being patronized or lied to. I am a consumer, and I am paying a company money, and as a customer, I get to have some say in the product I'm getting BECAUSE I am paying that money. The end result is I'm either satisfied with the response, or I take my money elsewhere. There's nothing wrong with consumer advocacy.

 

If you sincerely believe what you wrote, IMO you should walk your talk. It's the honest thing to do.

 

If you are just being rhetorical, and still see value in playing this game as a subscriber, that's fine too.

 

Which is it? Sincere question.

 

/2-cents

Edited May 3, 2013 by Andryah

[SavingPrincess]

If you sincerely believe what you wrote, IMO you should walk your talk. It's the honest thing to do.

 

If you are just being rhetorical, and still see value in playing this game as a subscriber, that's fine too.

 

Which is it? Sincere question.

 

/2-cents

 

To be honest, I'm in limbo. I was under the impression that my value as a subscriber would be access to new features as they come out.

 

Things like character customization post-roll have been around for years in MMO's and most others allow you to pay for them with in-game currency. The fact that I will be "paying for a discount" disheartens me. I suppose you could say I'm holding out hope that something will get announced that will keep me as a sub, when I should just unsub and wait for them to lure me back in. So in all honesty, I haven't decided which walk I want to walk yet. My sub-date is the 15th. I'll have a decision to make prior to that.

[Andryah]

To be honest, I'm in limbo. I was under the impression that my value as a subscriber would be access to new features as they come out.

 

Things like character customization post-roll have been around for years in MMO's and most others allow you to pay for them with in-game currency. The fact that I will be "paying for a discount" disheartens me. I suppose you could say I'm holding out hope that something will get announced that will keep me as a sub, when I should just unsub and wait for them to lure me back in. So in all honesty, I haven't decided which walk I want to walk yet. My sub-date is the 15th. I'll have a decision to make prior to that.

 

If I found myself in a limbo state on the issue... personally... I'd wait and see and experience the live patch.

 

You might be modestly surprised with how it settles in. 95% of this thread is speculation, much of it negative, well in advance of the actual patch notes. This is common in the forum... so no surprise there.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Andryah

[TheNahash]

I'm a subscriber too, but I also don't like being patronized or lied to. I am a consumer, and I am paying a company money, and as a customer, I get to have some say in the product I'm getting BECAUSE I am paying that money. The end result is I'm either satisfied with the response, or I take my money elsewhere. There's nothing wrong with consumer advocacy.

 

 

Obviously no one likes being patronized or lied to. And we are all consumers and, since we're posting here, subscribers.

But I have a different philosophy than you: If I don't like the way a company is treating me, I leave and I know that that hurts them more than staying and complaining about something.

 

As for having a say in the product or service you're getting, we disagree again.

 

I don't think I have (or should have) a say on the product or service itself, when I can take my money elsewhere (i.e. when it's about entertainment and not my dealings with the State or Country).

 

What I CAN and should have a say on, is where my money go.

 

That doesn't mean I will not ask for stuff or express my frustration for the lack of others, but if I'm satisfied with a product/service when it comes to getting my money's worth, I don't care about advertisements or any free gift baskets they might send me hoping to keep me (aka Cartel Coins).

Edited May 3, 2013 by TheNahash

[SavingPrincess]

If you sincerely believe what you wrote, IMO you should walk your talk. It's the honest thing to do.

 

If you are just being rhetorical, and still see value in playing this game as a subscriber, that's fine too.

 

Which is it? Sincere question.

 

/2-cents

 

Also, I'm very happy you are happy with your subscription. I'm glad you have zero concerns. I am envious of that. Time and time again.... I have seen your posts on these forums, continually antagonizing people who present a differing viewpoint. You may be frustrated with people not "walking the walk" but you refuse to just accept that you are happy and they are not, and are consistently demanding that they "shut up and enjoy it."

 

This type of discourse helps no one. It gives the developers zero feedback on the wants and needs of its player base. It gives zero outlet for legitimate concerns. If you truly do love this game, you wouldn't sit there and say "If you don't like it, leave" because if they listened to you, your game would be gone.

 

Instead of just smacking people down at every opportunity... try presenting constructive, creative ideas on how things could be improved in your opinion, and if you think things are fine, trust me, everyone in general forums knows that. You don't need to continually repeat it. You could actually contribute to the productivity of the conversation, instead of just trying to get everyone to cancel their subscriptions... which I'm sure the developers appreciate you for.

[Arlbo_Nabbins]

Penguin, even Eric Musco referred to monthly coins as a "stipend".

 

Irrelevant in any case, a Stipend can be free.

[Jhericho]

To be honest, I'm in limbo. I was under the impression that my value as a subscriber would be access to new features as they come out.

 

Things like character customization post-roll have been around for years in MMO's and most others allow you to pay for them with in-game currency. The fact that I will be "paying for a discount" disheartens me. I suppose you could say I'm holding out hope that something will get announced that will keep me as a sub, when I should just unsub and wait for them to lure me back in. So in all honesty, I haven't decided which walk I want to walk yet. My sub-date is the 15th. I'll have a decision to make prior to that.

 

If they don't address this before it launches I think they are sending a pretty clear message; the cartel market is where they've decided to place the bulk of their emphasis and they aren't interested in listening to their subscribing player base.

[gilephor]

Mr. Musco, are there any features, like hairstyles and their colors, which are not charged coins in the designer kiosk? I honestly can't name any other mmo out there which features a barber and charges for those basic cosmetic changes. Race, skin, face can be understandable.

 

This is going to make or break this update for you and I would seriously urge you to consider making changes to this or I will not spend one single dime on customization features. I can understand charging for the Cathar, I cannot for basic customization options it is a load of #$$# and that is all it is have you looked at other MMOs and how they do their shop, LOTRO for instance.

 

My cartel stipend is a reward for me being a sub plain and simple, I am not going to spend it on making basic purchases which SHOULD be available using credits not cartel coins.

[SavingPrincess]

If they don't address this before it launches I think they are sending a pretty clear message; the cartel market is where they've decided to place the bulk of their emphasis and they aren't interested in listening to their subscribing player base.

 

Unfortunately, we don't have access to their metrics or sales figures. If the Cartel Market is what's generating the most revenue, they will absolutely focus their attention there. Where they might misstep is taking "the short nickel over the long dime." If they dump the majority of their development power into the Cartel Market instead of catering to their subscription base, they will have a long-term mess on their hands.

 

That being said, again, we don't know the business strategy. They may be trying to rake as much quick cash in as possible so that they can make their profit, then shut this game down. Only execs sitting in a board room looking at PowerPoint presentations know for sure.

 

The developers are basically contractually obligated to sound excited about whatever they come up with, when in actuality, they might want to be getting the voice cast back in the studio and coming up with new class missions, new classes, etc. But if your boss says "No, we need you to focus on products that will generate immediate revenue" they can do the same thing as us, either deal with it, or quit.

Edited May 3, 2013 by SavingPrincess
spelling

[Andryah]

Also, I'm very happy you are happy with your subscription. I'm glad you have zero concerns. I am envious of that. Time and time again.... I have seen your posts on these forums, continually antagonizing people who present a differing viewpoint. You may be frustrated with people not "walking the walk" but you refuse to just accept that you are happy and they are not, and are consistently demanding that they "shut up and enjoy it."

 

This type of discourse helps no one. It gives the developers zero feedback on the wants and needs of its player base. It gives zero outlet for legitimate concerns. If you truly do love this game, you wouldn't sit there and say "If you don't like it, leave" because if they listened to you, your game would be gone.

 

Instead of just smacking people down at every opportunity... try presenting constructive, creative ideas on how things could be improved in your opinion, and if you think things are fine, trust me, everyone in general forums knows that. You don't need to continually repeat it. You could actually contribute to the productivity of the conversation, instead of just trying to get everyone to cancel their subscriptions... which I'm sure the developers appreciate you for.

 

That is a harsh mischaracterization of me and I take exception to it.

 

Yes... I am very forthright in my views.. but so are others. I rarely ever tell someone to leave the game.. it's not my viewpoint, nor my place to do so.... rather I encourage them to play what is fun for them. Sometimes I suggest different perspective on something to perhaps help mentally move to a more fun space in ones mind and emotions. MMOs should be fun. If you are not having fun.... maybe find something else that is fun. Read my post history.. you will see this is the way I present it. I would expect the same from you if I were expressing unhappiness about this game and not having fun playing it.

 

And I'm sorry... but I'm not beating anyone down by expressing my views and opinions in a gaming forum. People do that to themselves by reacting to what is written. Forums are for open discusison of opposing views and opinions. It's not strictly for one side of a topic to have exclusive rights to their view and other being censored. I have never told anyone to leave a topic, or shut up. Yet I have been told that by others many times. I have a thick skin... so I just ignore it or confront it for what it is.

 

I do, and will continue to, challenge the thinking, bias, and ideas expressed in the forum, as others do with me. That's called a conversation.... where it is OK to be at odds with each others views. You say such discourse helps nobody. I very much disagree with you on that charge. Each forum member expresses their views.. and it is up to readers to decide what resonates with them and what does not. None of us can force anyone on this forum to believe anything they do not want to believe.

 

AND, I have never stated that I have no issues or concerns with the state of the game. Your statement to the contrary demonstrates to me that you do not read my posts consistently across the forum topics.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Andryah

[SavingPrincess]

That is a harsh mischaracterization of me and I take exception to it.

 

Yes... I am very forthright in my views.. but so are others. I rarely ever tell someone to leave the game.. it's not my viewpoint, nor my place to do so.... rather I encourage them to play what is fun for them. Sometimes I suggest different perspective on something to perhaps help mentally move to a more fun space in ones mind and emotions. MMOs should be fun. If you are not having fun.... maybe find something else that is fun. Read my post history.. you will see this is the way I present it. I would expect the same from you if I were expressing unhappiness about this game and not having fun playing it.

 

And I'm sorry... but I'm not beating anyone down by expressing my views and opinions in a gaming forum. People do that to themselves by reacting to what is written. Forums are for open discusison of opposing views and opinions. It's not strictly for one side of a topic to have exclusive rights to their view and other being censored. I have never told anyone to leave a topic, or shut up. Yet I have been told that by others many times. I have a thick skin... so I just ignore it or confront it for what it is.

 

I do, and will continue to, challenge the thinking, bias, and ideas expressed in the forum, as others do with me. That's called a conversation.... where it is OK to be at odds with each others views. You say such discourse helps nobody. I very much disagree with you on that charge. Each forum member expresses their views.. and it is up to readers to decide what resonates with them and what does not. None of us can force anyone on this forum to believe anything they do not want to believe.

 

AND, I have never stated that I have no issues or concerns with the state of the game. Your statement to the contrary demonstrates to me that you do not read my posts consistently across the forum topics.

 

Sorry if I offended you. I just went through your post history, I only found 2 instances of you telling people "if they don't like it, then quit" and a few "if you don't like it, why are you here? /seriousquestion" posts. That being said, I never really saw you offer up anything constructive in that research either, which may have led to the mischaracterization of your forum personality. Mostly, what I see is you telling people why they are wrong, in fact, I only found ONE post where you actually agreed with someone... but that's neither here nor there.

 

Try, just try, to post feedback on what you think could be done to IMPROVE the game... and not merely clarify, correct, challenge, contradict and combat others for their ideas?